Stansted Airport fines

[Djgr]

Reading the article, it suggests that Greater Anglia are in line for a big kicking.

 

[Haywain]

Reading the article, it suggests that Greater Anglia are in line for a big kicking.

From who, and what for?

 

[methecooldude]

Reading the article, it suggests that Greater Anglia are in line for a big kicking.

Where does it say that in the article

 

[fandroid]

The online comments are almost universally blaming Greater Anglia. No-one seems to appreciate that the TOCs are now just agents for DoT, handing over all income. They also seem to think that Greater Anglia has much agency in the expansion of contactless.

DoT is quietly smiling to itself while its tame contractor gets a kicking from Joe Public.

 

[jon81uk]

There is a significant amount of signage telling passengers not to use contactless on that route. If you go to the Stansted Express website there is a banner stating it is not valid and it clearly offers tickets for sale.

If you arrive at Stansted you can't touch in with contactless so anyone coming from abroad and doing a return flight should know from arrival what to do to get back to the airport.

I don't think this is Greater Anglia's fault. Maybe the DfT for not getting contactless rolled out sooner.

 

[fandroid]

In my various comments on this perennial topic, I've always assumed that Penalty Fare income goes to the Treasury, just as normal fare income does. Can anyone confirm that?

 

[methecooldude]

There is a significant amount of signage telling passengers not to use contactless on that route. If you go to the Stansted Express website there is a banner stating it is not valid and it clearly offers tickets for sale.

I agree, I saw the news piece on it and there is a massive floor banner that says "no Contactless to the airport" as well as a bit on the reader itself... if people choose not to read it *shrug*

In fact: here it is

 

[fandroid]

There are even announcements or displays on the train before it gets to Tottenham Hale.

Here's a supplementary (hypothetical) question.

Say I got on at Liverpool Street having gone through the gates using contactless and realised my mistake. I then buy an eticket (Liverpool Street to Stansted Airport) before I get to Tottenham Hale. Would anyone have grounds for giving me a Penalty Fare or prosecuting?

 

[spag23]

Playing Devil's Advocate here, but a tourist with little English or local knowledge might read that signage as "No need to pay if travelling to the Airport", ie the Express is free, like the Shuttle at Gatwick. Perhaps it needs to add "You must buy a separate ticket before travelling".

 

[rs101]

There are even announcements or displays on the train before it gets to Tottenham Hale.

Here's a supplementary (hypothetical) question.

Say I got on at Liverpool Street having gone through the gates using contactless and realised my mistake. I then buy an eticket (Liverpool Street to Stansted Airport) before I get to Tottenham Hale. Would anyone have grounds for giving me a Penalty Fare or prosecuting?

Technically yes, because you didn't have a valid ticket when you boarded the train. You'd need to buy one from Tottenham Hale, tap out there, then get back on, to be legitimate..

 

[Djgr]

I agree, I saw the news piece on it and there is a massive floor banner that says "no Contactless to the airport" as well as a bit on the reader itself... if people choose not to read it *shrug*

In fact: here it is
View attachment 151748

Hmm. Not sure how effective a floor banner is if there are people queueing over it.

 

[skyhigh]

Hmm. Not sure how effective a floor banner is if there are people queueing over it.

There's a big STOP sticker on the Oyster reader too, along with other signage.

 

[Ianigsy]

From a position of ignorance, why is this the case? People clearly expect to be able to use contactless so why not do the stuff behind the scenes to make that work rather than sticking banners on the floor and making life more inconvenient?

 

[jon81uk]

From a position of ignorance, why is this the case? People clearly expect to be able to use contactless so why not do the stuff behind the scenes to make that work rather than sticking banners on the floor and making life more inconvenient?

As has already been said, they are (it will be part of Project Oval), but the Department for Transport have no urgency and its unlikely to happen for at least a year.

 

[rs101]

There's a big STOP sticker on the Oyster reader too, along with other signage.

Although neither are visible on the virtual tour of Liverpool street - https://virtualtour.greateranglia.co.uk/liverpool/ .

Can't see for sure when that was taken, but it's since August 2022 as that's when the Greggs opened ..

There is a big yellow sign which every passenger would walk past to get to the train, but it's the 'wrong' side of the barrier.

 

[Watershed]

Technically yes, because you didn't have a valid ticket when you boarded the train. You'd need to buy one from Tottenham Hale, tap out there, then get back on, to be legitimate..

I'm afraid that's not correct. Failing to touch out at Tottenham Hale doesn't somehow retrospectively render the use of contactless to reach Tottenham Hale invalid! It merely means that a maximum fare will be charged to the card.

If checked between Liverpool Street and Tottenham Hale you would show the contactless card which had been touched in at Liverpool Steeet. In fact, this would be accepted even if not touched in, as the inspection devices do not allow RPIs to instantaneously validate the status of contactless cards/devices - if not touched in, you would simply be charged a maximum fare afterwards.

If checked at or after departing Tottenham Hale you would show the e-ticket from Liverpool Street and contactless card. The fact the e-ticket wasn't scanned at the Liverpool Street or Tottenhame Hale barriers or held when boarding at Liverpool Street is immaterial; effectively you are split ticketing - you were entirely valid to use contactless as far as Tottenham Hale and from Tottenham Hale the e-ticket is similarly valid as you can break/start your journey there.

Of course it's possible that an RPI would wrongly claim that, since the train left Liverpool Street after the e-ticket was issued, it's not valid. But since the e-ticket is only being used from Tottenham Hale this is immaterial.

Taking each of the potential penalties/offences in turn:

• New Anytime Single under NRCoT - failing to produce a valid ticket: a new Anytime Single could not be validly charged under the NRCoT. A valid ticket could be produced at any stage of the journey, as above. It involves an entirely permitted split at Tottenham Hale.
• Penalty Fare - failing to produce a valid ticket: a Penalty Fare could not be validly issued. A valid ticket could be produced at any stage of the journey, as above; also there are issues that have been previously raised regarding whether the signage requirements are met.
• Byelaw 18(1) - boarding without a valid ticket: when the train was boarded in Liverpool Street, a valid ticket was held - the touched-in contactless card. Thus no offence was committed.
• Byelaw 18(2) - failing to hand over a ticket for inspection: as has been raised many times previously, this does not require the ticket produced to be valid, but in any event a valid ticket could be produced at any stage of the journey, as above.
• Section 5(3)(a) RoRA - travelling without previously having paid the fare, with intent to avoid payment thereof: this offence would not be committed since this is a valid split - hence at no stage would the passenger have not paid the fare, nor would they have any intent to avoid payment.
• Section 103 RCCA - failing to leave the train at the station to which your ticket is valid: since the e-ticket from Liverpool Street would be held before departing Tottenham Hale, this offence would not be committed.

I will readily admit that it would be more ideal (and certainly cheaper) to get off the train at Tottenham Hale, touch out, and take the next service. If you're positioned near the barriers and really quick you might even manage to get back on the same train! But failing to do so doesn't mean you have committed any offence.

 

[87015]

Although neither are visible on the virtual tour of Liverpool street - https://virtualtour.greateranglia.co.uk/liverpool/ .

Can't see for sure when that was taken, but it's since August 2022 as that's when the Greggs opened ..

There is a big yellow sign which every passenger would walk past to get to the train, but it's the 'wrong' side of the barrier.

Certainly isn't every passenger given loads of trains go off platforms other than 4 and 5.

 

[fandroid]

I'm afraid that's not correct. Failing to touch out at Tottenham Hale doesn't somehow retrospectively render the use of contactless to reach Tottenham Hale invalid! It merely means that a maximum fare will be charged to the card.

If checked between Liverpool Street and Tottenham Hale you would show the contactless card which had been touched in at Liverpool Steeet. In fact, this would be accepted even if not touched in, as the inspection devices do not allow RPIs to instantaneously validate the status of contactless cards/devices - if not touched in, you would simply be charged a maximum fare afterwards.

If checked at or after departing Tottenham Hale you would show the e-ticket from Liverpool Street and contactless card. The fact the e-ticket wasn't scanned at the Liverpool Street or Tottenhame Hale barriers or held when boarding at Liverpool Street is immaterial; effectively you are split ticketing - you were entirely valid to use contactless as far as Tottenham Hale and from Tottenham Hale the e-ticket is similarly valid as you can break/start your journey there.

Of course it's possible that an RPI would wrongly claim that, since the train left Liverpool Street after the e-ticket was issued, it's not valid. But since the e-ticket is only being used from Tottenham Hale this is immaterial.

Taking each of the potential penalties/offences in turn:

• New Anytime Single under NRCoT - failing to produce a valid ticket: a new Anytime Single could not be validly charged under the NRCoT. A valid ticket could be produced at any stage of the journey, as above. It involves an entirely permitted split at Tottenham Hale.
• Penalty Fare - failing to produce a valid ticket: a Penalty Fare could not be validly issued. A valid ticket could be produced at any stage of the journey, as above; also there are issues that have been previously raised regarding whether the signage requirements are met.
• Byelaw 18(1) - boarding without a valid ticket: when the train was boarded in Liverpool Street, a valid ticket was held - the touched-in contactless card. Thus no offence was committed.
• Byelaw 18(2) - failing to hand over a ticket for inspection: as has been raised many times previously, this does not require the ticket produced to be valid, but in any event a valid ticket could be produced at any stage of the journey, as above.
• Section 5(3)(a) RoRA - travelling without previously having paid the fare, with intent to avoid payment thereof: this offence would not be committed since this is a valid split - hence at no stage would the passenger have not paid the fare, nor would they have any intent to avoid payment.
• Section 103 RCCA - failing to leave the train at the station to which your ticket is valid: since the e-ticket from Liverpool Street would be held before departing Tottenham Hale, this offence would not be committed.

I will readily admit that it would be more ideal (and certainly cheaper) to get off the train at Tottenham Hale, touch out, and take the next service. If you're positioned near the barriers and really quick you might even manage to get back on the same train! But failing to do so doesn't mean you have committed any offence.

Thanks @Watershed. The split ticket argument combined with the notion of starting short at Tottenham Hale with the Liverpool Street ticket seems to clinch it.

It would be an illuminating conversation to have with an RPI on board the train after leaving Tottenham Hale! I'm enough of a coward to buy the e-ticket for Tottenham Hale to Stansted, before reaching the former, leap off there, tap out and use the e-ticket to re-enter the platform and catch the next train 15 minutes later.

 

[Class800]

"Getting around London with contactless is quick, easy and secure." - from a rail website

The airport is called London Stansted.

This is really confusing and I think unfair, although I've never seen any Judge yet take the same position on this as I would. Which is that the airport needs to lose its London name if it's not going to accept the London means of payment for trains.

All I can say people is be very careful as tricks like this are all around - never presume you can use anything without triple checking

 

[jon81uk]

It would be an illuminating conversation to have with an RPI on board the train after leaving Tottenham Hale

There won't be an RPI on the train, almost all the fare checks on Stansted Express are done at Stansted (with the assumption you needed a ticket to board at Liverpool St as the barriers are almost always in use). I commute on this route and have only once seen a guard check tickets on the train, most of the time the checks are at the destination.

"Getting around London with contactless is quick, easy and secure." - from a rail website

The airport is called London Stansted.

This is really confusing and I think unfair, although I've never seen any Judge yet take the same position on this as I would. Which is that the airport needs to lose its London name if it's not going to accept the London means of payment for trains.

All I can say people is be very careful as tricks like this are all around - never presume you can use anything without triple checking

What website? "a rail website" could mean anything from an unoffical blog thats years out of date. The only relevant website would be Stansted Express or Greater Anglia. Even if you check TfL it won't give you the price of a fare to Stansted so that infers their rules don't apply.

Not sure there are any "tricks" around this, its just an example of where the government is slow to change.

 

[Haywain]

although I've never seen any Judge yet take the same position on this as I would.

Probably because judges rule on law, not personal opinions.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

"Getting around London with contactless is quick, easy and secure." - from a rail website

What website? "a rail website" could mean anything from an unoffical blog thats years out of date. The only relevant website would be Stansted Express or Greater Anglia.

Not that I think it's particularly relevant, but it took seconds to Google for this phrase and find one single result, on the Southeastern website:

Contactless payment | Southeastern

Contactless payment cards can be used to travel on most National Rail services in London

www.southeasternrailway.co.uk

 

[jon81uk]

Not that I think it's particularly relevant, but it took seconds to Google for this phrase and find one single result, on the Southeastern website:

Contactless payment | Southeastern

Contactless payment cards can be used to travel on most National Rail services in London

www.southeasternrailway.co.uk

So definitly not relevant to the train service in discussion as it is about an operator on the other side of the city. Also that page opens with "Contactless payment cards can be used to travel on most National Rail services in London". Certainly doesn't imply it can be used on all services in the south east and east of England.

 

[sheff1]

Hmm. Not sure how effective a floor banner is if there are people queueing over it.

Even if not obscured by queues, most people would be looking ahead at the gateline and/or train rather than down at the floor. A banner would be far better positioned above the gateline.

Of course, even better (for passengers, not DfT) would be for contactless/Oyster to be valid at Stansted in line with other "London" airports which are not actually in London.

 

[1955LR]

I find that if I am in an unfamiliar building or station I tend to be concentrating on navigating the area, and have sort of tunnel vision, anything outside that zone, including signage , is blanked out . It is easy to just not see some of these notices.

 

[paul1609]

Ironically at Gatwick there are announcements pleading with passengers to use contactless rather than the long queues to use the TVMs.

 

[Haywain]

Ironically at Gatwick there are announcements pleading with passengers to use contactless rather than the long queues to use the TVMs.

What's ironic about that? Use of contactless payment at Gatwick Airport is entirely legitimate and it seems reasonable to encourage it.

 

[John R]

It’s ironic that at one London airport they encourage you to use contactless and at the other they fine you for using it by mistake.

 

[Sleepy]

Just to add to the mix - London Southend Airport ? I'll get my coat

 

[Watershed]

Just to add to the mix - London Southend Airport ? I'll get my coat

Another Greater Anglia-served "London airport" where one would no doubt be threatened with a Penalty Fare if attempting to travel using contactless PAYG.