Stansted Express - Off Peak Day Return / Groupsave

[cstewa38]

I'm looking to book 6 x adult day returns from Stansted Airport to Liverpool Street. The greater Anglia site offers an off-peak day return with group save discount working out at £98.40 total, with the first valid train showing as the 09:44 from Stansted Airport.

Ideally we are looking to travel on the 09:15 from the airport, and the greater Anglia site does mention the below regarding off-peak day tickets; the 09:15 is due to arrive into Liverpool Street at 10:03.

Off-Peak and Off-Peak Day:
Not to arrive Liverpool St before 10:00

The Stansted Express site doesn't even offer the above as an option with the cheapest ticket being the Group Offer Open Return at £137.80.

Can anyone advise if the £98.40 ticket would be valid on the 09:15 from Stansted Airport to London Liverpool Street? The ticket mentions that restriction C4 applies which only mentions the arrival after 10:00 into London Terminals.

 

[Watershed]

I'm looking to book 6 x adult day returns from Stansted Airport to Liverpool Street. The greater Anglia site offers an off-peak day return with group save discount working out at £98.40 total, with the first valid train showing as the 09:44 from Stansted Airport.

Ideally we are looking to travel on the 09:15 from the airport, and the greater Anglia site does mention the below regarding off-peak day tickets; the 09:15 is due to arrive into Liverpool Street at 10:03.

Off-Peak and Off-Peak Day:
Not to arrive Liverpool St before 10:00

The Stansted Express site doesn't even offer the above as an option with the cheapest ticket being the Group Offer Open Return at £137.80.

Can anyone advise if the £98.40 ticket would be valid on the 09:15 from Stansted Airport to London Liverpool Street? The ticket mentions that restriction C4 applies which only mentions the arrival after 10:00 into London Terminals.

There are two separate restrictions here. There's the Off-Peak restrictions which apply to the Off-Peak Day Return you're considering, and then the restrictions applicable to the GroupSave discount.

Off-Peak restrictions vary depending on the ticket and journey in question: in this case it's C4 - so no arrival into London before 10am. In principle this would allow you take the 09:15.

However, the restriction on the GroupSave discount is that it can't be used before 09:30. The 09:15 departure falls foul of the GroupSave discount, so instead you are forced to buy the more expensive Group Offer ticket (which is also a group product, but not the same as GroupSave).

So if you're happy to wait until the 09:44 you can use a GroupSave discounted Off-Peak Day Return. But if you want to use the 09:15 you'll have to buy the Group Offer ticket.

 

[cstewa38]

There are two separate restrictions here. There's the Off-Peak restrictions which apply to the Off-Peak Day Return you're considering, and then the restrictions applicable to the GroupSave discount.

Off-Peak restrictions vary depending on the ticket and journey in question: in this case it's C4 - so no arrival into London before 10am. In principle this would allow you take the 09:15.

However, the restriction on the GroupSave discount is that it can't be used before 09:30. The 09:15 departure falls foul of the GroupSave discount, so instead you are forced to buy the more expensive Group Offer ticket (which is also a group product, but not the same as GroupSave).

So if you're happy to wait until the 09:44 you can use a GroupSave discounted Off-Peak Day Return. But if you want to use the 09:15 you'll have to buy the Group Offer ticket.

Thanks very much for the detailed reply. That makes it all clear now.

 

[greatkingrat]

There are two separate restrictions here. There's the Off-Peak restrictions which apply to the Off-Peak Day Return you're considering, and then the restrictions applicable to the GroupSave discount.

Off-Peak restrictions vary depending on the ticket and journey in question: in this case it's C4 - so no arrival into London before 10am. In principle this would allow you take the 09:15.

However, the restriction on the GroupSave discount is that it can't be used before 09:30. The 09:15 departure falls foul of the GroupSave discount, so instead you are forced to buy the more expensive Group Offer ticket (which is also a group product, but not the same as GroupSave).

So if you're happy to wait until the 09:44 you can use a GroupSave discounted Off-Peak Day Return. But if you want to use the 09:15 you'll have to buy the Group Offer ticket.

The Greater Anglia website https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/tickets-fares/discounts/groupsave says:

3. Time restrictions apply on Mondays to Fridays, except Bank Holidays. The restrictions on tickets with GroupSave discount are the same as those on the equivalent undiscounted tickets - in other words, there are no extra restrictions with GroupSave.

so the 0915 should be valid. The only reference to a 0930 cut-off is if using an Anytime ticket.

 

[Alex365Dash]

The Greater Anglia website https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/tickets-fares/discounts/groupsave says

3. Time restrictions apply on Mondays to Fridays, except Bank Holidays. The restrictions on tickets with GroupSave discount are the same as those on the equivalent undiscounted tickets - in other words, there are no extra restrictions with GroupSave.

so the 0915 should be valid. The only reference to a 0930 cut-off is if using an Anytime ticket.

The GroupSave Terms & Conditions on the National Rail site agrees:

If there is no Off-Peak Ticket type offered for the journey, then travel on a GroupSave discounted Ticket is permitted after 09:30 Monday to Friday (except Bank Holidays).

However it also introduces an extra complication in Condition 6a:

6. GroupSave discounted tickets are valid for travel:
a) On services operated by the following Train Operating Companies:
[…]
- Greater Anglia
- Stansted Express**
[…]
**Not valid on journeys between Stansted Airport and Tottenham Hale or London Liverpool Street, where other group offers are available

So journeys on the TOC Greater Anglia between Stansted Airport and London are valid, but not if it involves Stansted Express, which is part of Greater Anglia.

Considering the lack of distinction between Stansted Express and Greater Anglia services (at least compared to the likes of the Gatwick Express which has its own TOC code unlike Stansted Express), I’m not surprised even accredited journey planners get confused with this one. Of course, if you book a ticket with an itinerary, that itinerary is automatically valid - whether it would be otherwise valid anyway, I shall leave to others in the forum with more knowledge to discuss!

 

[kieron]

Considering the lack of distinction between Stansted Express and Greater Anglia services (at least compared to the likes of the Gatwick Express which has its own TOC code unlike Stansted Express), I’m not surprised even accredited journey planners get confused with this one.

It wouldn't be difficult to exclude Stansted Express trains, at least in theory.

GroupSave appears in the fare data as a railcard. The time restrictions many railcards have are defined as a restriction code, RV in the case of GroupSave. The data for a restriction codes can say that it isn't valid on trains which have a specific UID.

For GroupSave, the restriction code could say "not valid on <list of Night Riviera trains> or <list of Stansted Express trains>. What it actually does is exclude some of the Night Riviera trains as well as some of the day trains between London and Plymouth or Penzance. It doesn't mention any Stansted Express trains.

The concept is fine, but it needs someone to update the data for the restriction each time a new timetable is produced. If Greater Anglia don't do this, they shouldn't be too surprised when people turn up on Stansted Express trains with GroupSave tickets.

 

[yorkie]

So journeys on the TOC Greater Anglia between Stansted Airport and London are valid, but not if it involves Stansted Express, which is part of Greater Anglia.

It's nonsense; GA is a TOC.

Stansted Express is merely a brand name; some people who work for TOCs in railway ticketing are pretty incompetent, sadly.

Considering the lack of distinction between Stansted Express and Greater Anglia services (at least compared to the likes of the Gatwick Express which has its own TOC code unlike Stansted Express), I’m not surprised even accredited journey planners get confused with this one.

Journey planners look at data; this is just text, and nonsense text at that.

But even if they introduced data (such as having bogus TOC codes, as implemented by GTR, or any other method), that wouldn't necessarily make it contractually enforceable.

Sadly some people involved in pricing at TOCs come up with all sorts of nonsense without running their ideas past suitably qualified and experienced people. That's where this forum is different; we have access to a wide range of experts in numerous fields.

Of course, if you book a ticket with an itinerary, that itinerary is automatically valid - whether it would be otherwise valid anyway, I shall leave to others in the forum with more knowledge to discuss!

Absolutely spot on. Yet somehow some people involved in railway ticketing don't get this basic concept. The levels of incompetence I see is just so normal now, I actually expect it.

 

[Alex365Dash]

It's nonsense; GA is a TOC.

Stansted Express is merely a brand name; some people who work for TOCs in railway ticketing are pretty incompetent, sadly.

Thanks for clarifying!

The one thing helpful it does reflect is GA's position on GroupSave tickets being used wholly on Stansted Express branded services, and that attempting to use this ticket in such a way, whilst perfectly valid, is unfortunately likely to cause issues with staff.

 

[yorkie]

I don't think it would cause an issue in this case, providing it was used no earlier than 0930 of course.

Though you never can be sure; I've known (and been informed of) all sorts of perfectly valid tickets be erroneously deemed to be invalid by overzealous staff over the years.