Station announcements in Welsh - time query

[John R]

One for any Welsh speakers. I noticed whilst waiting at Cardiff Central on Wednesday that announcements in Welsh don't use the 24 hour clock. So for example, my 1855 to Plymouth was announced as "five to seven" in the Welsh version (bum munud i saith I think). I'm curious as to why this is. Has Welsh, like North American railroads, yet to catch up with the concept of the 24 hour clock?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

One for any Welsh speakers. I noticed whilst waiting at Cardiff Central on Wednesday that announcements in Welsh don't use the 24 hour clock. So for example, my 1855 to Plymouth was announced as "five to seven" in the Welsh version (bum munud i saith I think). I'm curious as to why this is. Has Welsh, like North American railroads, yet to catch up with the concept of the 24 hour clock?

I'm no expert, but Welsh numbers are a bit like French and use 20 (score) as units.
So you get "five and twenty to/past" rather than "twenty-five to/past" (also found in old-fashioned English).

Welsh numerals - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Here's a list of time expressions in Welsh.

Telling the time in Welsh

How to tell the time in Welsh, a Celtic language spoken mainly in Wales.

www.omniglot.com

You hear a lot of "i" for before a time, and "wedi" for after.
Welsh often then adds "yn y bore/prynhawn/nos" for "in the morning/afternoon/night".
Then there's the mutations...

 

[rich.davies]

An a separate note. I was at Cardiff Central last week and the whole announcement seemed like a mish mash of inserted recorded voices.

 

[John R]

I'm no expert, but Welsh numbers are a bit like French and use 20 (score) as units.
So you get "five and twenty to/past" rather than "twenty-five to/past" (also found in old-fashioned English).

Welsh numerals - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Here's a list of time expressions in Welsh.

Telling the time in Welsh

How to tell the time in Welsh, a Celtic language spoken mainly in Wales.

www.omniglot.com

You hear a lot of "i" for before a time, and "wedi" for after.
Welsh often then adds "yn y bore/prynhawn/nos" for "in the morning/afternoon/night".
Then there's the mutations...

Yep, I get all that from my dim and distant junior school lessons. It’s why that is used for train times, instead of the 24 hour clock that puzzles me.

 

[Tom125]

Welsh expresses itself using the 12 hour clock, there is no linguistic function for the 24 hour clock- you just wouldn’t say for example 17:16 as “un deg saith, un deg chwech” like you’d say “Seventeen, sixteeen” in English- just writing that in Welsh feels wrong! Let alone saying it…

You would use the modern number system for minutes not the traditional method (with the exception of certain numbers for timetelling) believe the modern method of numbering was brought about to facilitate the teaching of maths in Welsh.

You can add “yn y bore/ prynhawn/ nos” to give a time of day explanation. If you’re standing on a station waiting for a train you would assume that the individual knows if it’s the morning or afternoon by day light/ routines etc. It’s not likely someone would turn up 12 hours early or late. Therefore the extra info is not necessary. If your picking someone up at 5 tomorrow then it might be necessary to add the additional explanation e.g “5 yn y bore”

 

[sefyllian]

Yes that’s simply how you say the time in Welsh. As Tom says, trying to say “Un deg saith…” for 17:00 sounds wrong and feels unnatural (even though there’s no real reason it should, it just goes against accepted practice). The closest equivalent I can think of is if you tried saying a year like 1984 as “one thousand nine hundred and eighty four”. It just sounds odd.

But it’s not an aversion to the 24 hour clock per se. Times are very often (probably most of the time I would guess?) written in 24 hour format. So I would always write “mae’r trên yn gadael am 14:00”, but if I had to read that out I would say “mae’r trên yn gadael am ddau” – the conversion sort of happens automatically. I hadn’t really thought about it til now.

On a tangent but vaguely similar – I quite like that 50p is often spoken as “chweugain” (especially in the north). Chweugain = chwech ugain = six twenties = 120, ie. half a pound in old pence, and still used for half a pound now despite the number being different.

 

[John R]

Welsh expresses itself using the 12 hour clock, there is no linguistic function for the 24 hour clock- you just wouldn’t say for example 17:16 as “un deg saith, un deg chwech” like you’d say “Seventeen, sixteeen” in English- just writing that in Welsh feels wrong! Let alone saying it…

Thank you - that was the sort of explanation I was looking for. I guess it feels a bit odd that the written time is so different to the way it is spoken, and I do wonder why no linguistic function emerged when the 24 hour clock started to become used commonly by transport operators.

The closest equivalent I can think of is if you tried saying a year like 1984 as “one thousand nine hundred and eighty four”. It just sounds odd.

Though I've always found it interesting that for the first decade of this millennium it was quite common, if not the norm to say "two thousand and two" as opposed to "twenty 02". But as soon as we got to 2010 we reverted to "twenty ten".

On a tangent but vaguely similar – I quite like that 50p is often spoken as “chweugain” (especially in the north). Chweugain = chwech ugain = six twenties = 120, ie. half a pound in old pence, and still used for half a pound now despite the number being different.

Now that IS confusing!!!

 

[oldman]

Welsh is not alone. According to learngaelic.scot

the 24-clock has still not caught on to any great degree in the Gaelic world - telling the time is still based on the 12-hour clock, morning and afternoon

There is obviously a common factor - the prevalence of English in areas where the 24-clock has long been the norm, such as the military and transport. Perhaps Celtic 24-hour clocks would have evolved in other circumstances - perhaps they will in future.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Though I've always found it interesting that for the first decade of this millennium it was quite common, if not the norm to say "two thousand and two" as opposed to "twenty 02". But as soon as we got to 2010 we reverted to "twenty ten".

Plausibly that was because the film 2001 had been pronounced that way for the preceding thirty years.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Though I've always found it interesting that for the first decade of this millennium it was quite common, if not the norm to say "two thousand and two" as opposed to "twenty 02". But as soon as we got to 2010 we reverted to "twenty ten".


Now that IS confusing!!!

Listening to radio news programmes on several stations I've noticed that this convention still applies. Strictly adhered to - a presenter will correct themselves if they get it 'wrong'. The reason would be interesting to know.

 

[merry]

The closest equivalent I can think of is if you tried saying a year like 1984 as “one thousand nine hundred and eighty four”. It just sounds odd.

Of course, the French do exactly that... 'mille neuf cent quatre-vingt quatre'. Each language has its natural feel, and in translation, or viewed from another language, it often looks/ feels weird. The French were doing 24h clock (muxed with 12 hour, just to add to the fun) way before the English population thought about it (even if our railways used it, very few people did, or do).

 

[neilmc]

When I was working remember travelling home from Newport and the station announcement was in Welsh first, if I'd waited for the English I might have missed my train! Fortunately I knew what "Manceinion" meant.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Though I've always found it interesting that for the first decade of this millennium it was quite common, if not the norm to say "two thousand and two" as opposed to "twenty 02". But as soon as we got to 2010 we reverted to "twenty ten".

"two thousand and..."remained and remains quite common, like weather forecasters still mentioning Fahrenheit.
The only public persona who used "twenty-xxx" for a long time was Jeremy Paxman on University Challenge Q&A.
I think it was 2020 before it caught on generally.
My dad was born in 1901 and he always voiced it as "nineteen ought one".

On a tangent but vaguely similar – I quite like that 50p is often spoken as “chweugain” (especially in the north). Chweugain = chwech ugain = six twenties = 120, ie. half a pound in old pence, and still used for half a pound now despite the number being different.

That's a bit like the phrase "half a dollar" for a half crown (2/6), deriving from when a US dollar was worth 5 shillings (long after the 1947 devaluation which took it from 4 to 2.80 to the £).
It was decimalisation which killed that one off.
There never was an full crown in circulation in those days, they were just in commemorative collections.

 

[DelW]

On a tangent but vaguely similar – I quite like that 50p is often spoken as “chweugain” (especially in the north). Chweugain = chwech ugain = six twenties = 120, ie. half a pound in old pence, and still used for half a pound now despite the number being different.

That's a bit like the phrase "half a dollar" for a half crown (2/6), deriving from when a US dollar was worth 5 shillings (long after the 1947 devaluation which took it from 4 to 2.80 to the £).
It was decimalisation which killed that one off.
There never was an full crown in circulation in those days, they were just in commemorative collections.

The 50p coin came out in 1969, a couple of years before decimalisation in February 1971, and was widely known as a "ten-bob bit" or less often a "ten-bob piece" (10 bob = 10 shillings = 50p). It replaced the paper ten shilling note.

That phrase survived into early decimalisation but I haven't heard it for many years. I don't know whether there was a Welsh direct translation of that, as well as the pre-decimal version quoted above?

 

[krus_aragon]

To expand on points above...

Welsh has two forms of its numbering system, a traditional vigesimal (20-based) one, and the simplified ten-based system that kids are first taught in schools (where 31 is literally described as "three-tens-one"). The traditional system is now used mainly in dates (e.g. the suffix in "17th" of the month) and times, e. g. 25 past the hour would be 'pum munud ar hugain wedi' - "five minutes on twenty past".

The numbers from eleven upward have different names in the old vigesimal system. Only eleven ('unarddeg') and twelve are commonly used for naming the hours, though twelve doesn't get that much of a look in, as those hours are usually described as 'hanner dydd' and 'hanner nos' for midday and midnight respectively. For the minutes, vigesimal 20 and 25 are commonly used (for the multiples of 5 that aren't covered by "quarter" or "half past") but many speakers will use the modern "one-on-ten" system for describing other (or any) number of minutes, as they may not be fully comfortable with the vigessimal system any more.

This means that Welsh is in an odd position of using traditional names for times, but the names for hours from 13 upward aren't really in common use anywhere, so it'd be strange or unfamiliar for many people to hear or use them.

As an aside, the way 24-hour times are read out in English is a radically different system to the 12-hour clock: there are no minutes to or past the hour, it's just a case of reading the number of hours, thenn the number of minutes. (Nobody says it's nine minutes to eighteen o' clock, they'd say seventeen fifty-three.) This works great for brevity and clear communication, and is why the US knows the 24-hour clock as "Army time". I assume it was heavily used in the British army as well prior to it's more public adoption for railway timetables. But this usage wouldn't have existed in Welsh, as the British army operates in English, for obvious reasons.

Given that this second (24 hour) clock-reading system hadn't been used already in Welsh, inventing/adopting one for the purpose of railway platform announcements would have felt like a very odd and unnatural choice.

Another tidbit on Welsh times: we actually have three Welsh postscripts to indicate the period of day for a 12-hour clock: y.b. (y bore), y.p. (y pnawn) and y.h. (yr hwyr), for morning, afternoon, and late/evening respectively. Many people use the latin a.m. and p.m. by default instead, which I feel is a shame given that we actually have Welsh versions (whereas English doesn't).


And now to drift into money matters for a moment:

The 50p coin came out in 1969, a couple of years before decimalisation in February 1971, and was widely known as a "ten-bob bit" or less often a "ten-bob piece" (10 bob = 10 shillings = 50p). It replaced the paper ten shilling note.

That phrase survived into early decimalisation but I haven't heard it for many years. I don't know whether there was a Welsh direct translation of that, as well as the pre-decimal version quoted above?

The above term "chwe ugain" described by @sefyllian was used for the paper note ('papur chweugain') and later for the 50p piece ('darn chweugain'), though usage of these terms is decreasing over time, as the pre-decimal origin is foreign to people of even my age. I only know of it because my father used it on occasion, and explained its origin.

Other terms for pre-decimalisation coins include 'swllt' for shilling, 'dimai' for halfpenny, and 'coron' for a crown (a literal translation). Some like 'grôt' and 'fflorin' were direct equivalents to the English terms, and there'd be plenty of other local terms that I've not come across. Only swllt and dimai would be familiar to the youth of today, because they're used in a few popular nursery rhymes.

As a final tidbit, the term used for money/coins differs in North and South Wales dialects. In the south, and in official writing, the term use is 'arian' (silver), whereas up north it's described as 'pres' (brass). I find this an interesting parallel with Northern English dialects that use "brass" to describe money.

 

[6Gman]

To expand on points above...

Welsh has two forms of its numbering system, a traditional vigesimal (20-based) one, and the simplified ten-based system that kids are first taught in schools (where 31 is literally described as "three-tens-one"). The traditional system is now used mainly in dates (e.g. the suffix in "17th" of the month) and times, e. g. 25 past the hour would be 'pum munud ar hugain wedi' - "five minutes on twenty past".

The numbers from eleven upward have different names in the old vigesimal system. Only eleven ('unarddeg') and twelve are commonly used for naming the hours, though twelve doesn't get that much of a look in, as those hours are usually described as 'hanner dydd' and 'hanner nos' for midday and midnight respectively. For the minutes, vigesimal 20 and 25 are commonly used (for the multiples of 5 that aren't covered by "quarter" or "half past") but many speakers will use the modern "one-on-ten" system for describing other (or any) number of minutes, as they may not be fully comfortable with the vigessimal system any more.

This means that Welsh is in an odd position of using traditional names for times, but the names for hours from 13 upward aren't really in common use anywhere, so it'd be strange or unfamiliar for many people to hear or use them.

As an aside, the way 24-hour times are read out in English is a radically different system to the 12-hour clock: there are no minutes to or past the hour, it's just a case of reading the number of hours, thenn the number of minutes. (Nobody says it's nine minutes to eighteen o' clock, they'd say seventeen fifty-three.) This works great for brevity and clear communication, and is why the US knows the 24-hour clock as "Army time". I assume it was heavily used in the British army as well prior to it's more public adoption for railway timetables. But this usage wouldn't have existed in Welsh, as the British army operates in English, for obvious reasons.

Given that this second (24 hour) clock-reading system hadn't been used already in Welsh, inventing/adopting one for the purpose of railway platform announcements would have felt like a very odd and unnatural choice.

Another tidbit on Welsh times: we actually have three Welsh postscripts to indicate the period of day for a 12-hour clock: y.b. (y bore), y.p. (y pnawn) and y.h. (yr hwyr), for morning, afternoon, and late/evening respectively. Many people use the latin a.m. and p.m. by default instead, which I feel is a shame given that we actually have Welsh versions (whereas English doesn't).


And now to drift into money matters for a moment:

The above term "chwe ugain" described by @sefyllian was used for the paper note ('papur chweugain') and later for the 50p piece ('darn chweugain'), though usage of these terms is decreasing over time, as the pre-decimal origin is foreign to people of even my age. I only know of it because my father used it on occasion, and explained its origin.

Other terms for pre-decimalisation coins include 'swllt' for shilling, 'dimai' for halfpenny, and 'coron' for a crown (a literal translation). Some like 'grôt' and 'fflorin' were direct equivalents to the English terms, and there'd be plenty of other local terms that I've not come across. Only swllt and dimai would be familiar to the youth of today, because they're used in a few popular nursery rhymes.

As a final tidbit, the term used for money/coins differs in North and South Wales dialects. In the south, and in official writing, the term use is 'arian' (silver), whereas up north it's described as 'pres' (brass). I find this an interesting parallel with Northern English dialects that use "brass" to describe money.

This forum needs a "like" function.

Diolch.

 

[GD1982]

This forum needs a "like" function.

Diolch.

Agreed

 

[snowball]

I remember that when I was learning French at school, it was mentioned that whereas 70 is soixante-dix (60+10) in France, it is septante in Belgium.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

When I was working remember travelling home from Newport and the station announcement was in Welsh first, if I'd waited for the English I might have missed my train! Fortunately I knew what "Manceinion" meant.

Yes, this is a constant issue. Newport is actually the only Welsh station which sensibly plays English first.

 

[etr221]

To expand on points above...

<snip>

As an aside, the way 24-hour times are read out in English is a radically different system to the 12-hour clock: there are no minutes to or past the hour, it's just a case of reading the number of hours, thenn the number of minutes. (Nobody says it's nine minutes to eighteen o' clock, they'd say seventeen fifty-three.) This works great for brevity and clear communication, and is why the US knows the 24-hour clock as "Army time". I assume it was heavily used in the British army as well prior to it's more public adoption for railway timetables. But this usage wouldn't have existed in Welsh, as the British army operates in English, for obvious reasons.

The British Army adopted the 24 hour clock 'universally' 1st October 1918, as part of Generalissimo Foch's push for inter-allied standardisation: the French Army, and civil life, had gone over to it shortly before the war - there is a comment I've seen in a report (of 1920, on Britain adopting it generally) that the peasantry had changed, they paid no attention to time anyway. Some parts of the British Army, and the Royal Navy, had adopted it earlier in the war.

 

[Meerkat]

Given that this second (24 hour) clock-reading system hadn't been used already in Welsh, inventing/adopting one for the purpose of railway platform announcements would have felt like a very odd and unnatural choice.

I’m not really buying this. It’s just the normal numbers, and surely everybody is aware of the 24hr clock, and would have heard the English version being read out. It seems very odd not to replicate it in Welsh for railway announcements. And also unhelpful - I’m guessing that anyone who has ever learnt Welsh at school would remember the first 24 numbers pretty easily and would be able to then have a pretty good idea what the announcements in Welsh were saying.

 

[Llanigraham]

I’m not really buying this. It’s just the normal numbers, and surely everybody is aware of the 24hr clock, and would have heard the English version being read out. It seems very odd not to replicate it in Welsh for railway announcements. And also unhelpful - I’m guessing that anyone who has ever learnt Welsh at school would remember the first 24 numbers pretty easily and would be able to then have a pretty good idea what the announcements in Welsh were saying.

When I first learnt Welsh (1960's) in South Wales it was 1 to 10 than numbers after that were 1+ 10, (un a deg = 11, dau a deg = 12, etc). Friends in North Wales learnt differently. Now, living in the middle, I rarely hear any number after 10 being said in Welsh and just the english being used.

 

[Tom125]

I’m not really buying this. It’s just the normal numbers, and surely everybody is aware of the 24hr clock, and would have heard the English version being read out. It seems very odd not to replicate it in Welsh for railway announcements. And also unhelpful - I’m guessing that anyone who has ever learnt Welsh at school would remember the first 24 numbers pretty easily and would be able to then have a pretty good idea what the announcements in Welsh were saying.

Because it’s not correct to do so. You would hope that railway announcements whether they are in English, Welsh or any other language would use the correct grammar and vocabulary of the language they are made in.

Fortunately the Welsh used on Welsh station announcements is good.

 

[nwales58]

I’m not really buying this. It’s just the normal numbers, and surely everybody is aware of the 24hr clock ... would be able to then have a pretty good idea what the announcements in Welsh were saying.

Even as someone english with poor welsh living in a majority welsh area, un naw un chwech enters my brain as a phone/SMS/product number or something similar, it does not sound like a time. It really is cultural.

That might change if there was an *official* campaign to introduce 24 hour times into the language, just as numbers were simplified years ago. It will vary by area but where I live it's common for people to use welsh for quantities and english numbers for money in the same sentence so actually using english numbers for 24 hour times sounds OK to me, though it would horrify the older ladies who try to make sure younger people speak proper.

So it really is not up to TfW to change this, it needs a general decision.

 

[nanstallon]

I wonder how long it takes for the station announcer at Swansea (or Shrewsbury) to read out the list of stations that a Central Wales train will be calling at in Welsh and then English. Do they include the request stops?

 

[krus_aragon]

I’m not really buying this. It’s just the normal numbers, and surely everybody is aware of the 24hr clock, and would have heard the English version being read out. It seems very odd not to replicate it in Welsh for railway announcements. And also unhelpful - I’m guessing that anyone who has ever learnt Welsh at school would remember the first 24 numbers pretty easily and would be able to then have a pretty good idea what the announcements in Welsh were saying.

A big priority in platform announcements is clarity: announcing times in the way everyone's used to hearing them is an obvious benefit. Switching to a new method isn't to be done lightly. Plus, when you're on the platform, you aren't likely to confuse moning and afternoon times anyway: it's in written timetables that the 24 hour clock has it's real benefit.

Speakers of both languages get used to subtracting 12 from numbers to convert from the 24-hour clock to the 12. Welsh speakers just happen to do it when reading out timetables too.

 

[unlevel42]

I’m not really buying this. It’s just the normal numbers, and surely everybody is aware of the 24hr clock, and would have heard the English version being read out. It seems very odd not to replicate it in Welsh for railway announcements. And also unhelpful - I’m guessing that anyone who has ever learnt Welsh at school would remember the first 24 numbers pretty easily and would be able to then have a pretty good idea what the announcements in Welsh were saying.

As has been said the in Welsh we just don't sound out the 24hr clock.

 

[Cambrian359]

I wonder how long it takes for the station announcer at Swansea (or Shrewsbury) to read out the list of stations that a Central wales train will be calling at in Welsh and then English. Do they include the request stops/

It has been known for staff to cut the automatic announcer short as it can drag on forever!

 

[Krokodil]

It’s not likely someone would turn up 12 hours early or late.

You say that, but I remember from the days of reduced timetables following the pandemic that a group of kids (who given where they were from almost certainly spoke Welsh as a first language) came up to me and asked where they could catch the "eight minutes past seven train to [destination]". I was mystified, my train would pre-pandemic have gone to [destination] but had always left at 19:05, not 19:08. They said that an app had told them so I took a look. The app was showing them the 07:08 (the leading zero is a key clue) train the following morning. D'oh! They decided to call their parents for a lift.

Fortunately the Welsh used on Welsh station announcements is good.

Unlike the 197 auto-announcer, which is poor in both languages. The stations correctly mutate station names to reflect their position in a sentence, whereas the 197s just use the radical word. It makes the sentence sound clunky.

For those not familiar, mutations are just the way that people change the sound of words to make speech flow. In English this is usually just done when speaking but in Welsh it's reflected in the written text.

Observant listeners on Welsh platforms may note that the system even uses "o'r gloch", "chwarter wedi", "hanner awr wedi" and "chwarter i" for xx:00, xx:15, xx:30 and xx:45 respectively. Clearly a considerable amount of thought and effort went into setting up bilingual announcements on stations back when those were done (must've been decades ago now). It's a shame that the onboard announcements on the new units are such a fudge.

 

[Meerkat]

A big priority in platform announcements is clarity: announcing times in the way everyone's used to hearing them is an obvious benefit. Switching to a new method isn't to be done lightly. Plus, when you're on the platform, you aren't likely to confuse moning and afternoon times anyway: it's in written timetables that the 24 hour clock has it's real benefit.

Speakers of both languages get used to subtracting 12 from numbers to convert from the 24-hour clock to the 12. Welsh speakers just happen to do it when reading out timetables too.

How is the 24hr clock not clear? It matches the platform clocks and displays!
Whilst it may be done for important reasons clarity went out the window when two languages started being used……