Station groups that should exist but don't

[Mcr Warrior]

Really I'm convinced I once bought an advance to reading which said I could go to reading west as well

Does that / has that ever actually happen(ed)?

 

[Haywain]

Does that / has that ever actually happen(ed)?

Yes. I have had tickets issued to "Reading/Reading West". This has been the case since the railway started to move away from issuing tickets to "xxxx stations" and increasingly they now use groups of specifically named stations. That is already unwieldy in the case of Manchester and Liverpool (4 stations apiece), and would be utterly ridiculous if some of the suggestions in this thread were taken forward.

Settle and Giggleswick

Walton and Rice Lane

I'm fairly sure those are already inter-available formally.

Indeed both are documented as being interavailable. In the case of the former, it applies only to tickets issued to Settle, and not vice versa.

 

[FlyingPotato]

Does that / has that ever actually happen(ed)?

While I admit this is isn't an advance but it shows what I mean

Picture shows a single from Windsor to reading/ reading west via Slough
Also ticket has been expired for at least two months and does not show any qr code information

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Are the two St Budeaux stations "grouped"? Much like Rice Lane/Walton there's probably a case for fully merging them into one station... in which case both pairs would qualify for the recent thread about stations with roads through them.

Is there a "Pontefract Stations" group (and if so are all three stations included)? I can't recall ever seeing a ticket issued to "Pontefract Stations".

 

[Haywain]

Is there a "Pontefract Stations" group (and if so are all three stations included)? I can't recall ever seeing a ticket issued to "Pontefract Stations".

Yes, for Monkhill and Tanshelf, but not Baghill.

 

[greatkingrat]

Are the two St Budeaux stations "grouped"? Much like Rice Lane/Walton there's probably a case for fully merging them into one station... in which case both pairs would qualify for the recent thread about stations with roads through them.

They aren't officially grouped, however I am sure they would be treated as interchangable in practice.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Yes, for Monkhill and Tanshelf, but not Baghill.

Surprised Baghill is excluded really- not an issue for local journeys, but it means someone with a longer distance ticket to Baghill who misses a connection at Sheffield won't have the option of travelling via Wakefield to reach Tanshelf instead.

 

[Hassocks5489]

Members may be interested in the attached spreadsheet, which I have compiled from various sources including National Fares Manuals, Journals of the Transport Ticket Society and observations from my own ticket collection. It shows all station groups known to have existed from 1985, when the concept was introduced, until 2008, and the constituents of each group and when they entered/exited the group. For anybody particularly interested in the topic, I'm happy to share some more detailed, as yet unpublished, research on the topic. Some of the locations mentioned so far in this thread do feature. Corrections, observations etc. welcome. NB. This only looks at station groups as shown on tickets, not Routeing Guide routeing points.

Edited to clarify that 1985 was the introduction of station groups outside London. LONDON SR, for Southern Region termini, started in 1970; LONDON BR was introduced in 1983.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Do something about the Medway towns, largely all the same price on virtually any flow that I can find but if you purchase a return to Chatham but then try to exit at jillingham because Thames link have ripped out all the stops between Dartford and the bay platform at glm the barriers spit it out and so you get an entire eight car unit full of disgruntled punters crowding what is a very small gate line. If the railway was worried about revenue loss then stick 10 pence on every single fare and live with it, it would be well used and I don't think over abused because all stations are barriered and barrier staffing hours are pretty good at most

 

[higthomas]

Cambridge, Cambridge North & Cambridge South when it opens (I think you can get Cambridge or Cambridge North tickets but no group exists AFAIK

There's already an easement that allows tickets to one to be used to the other, so it would make sense to just go ahead and formalise it by making them a station group.

 

[YorksLad12]

Surprised Baghill is excluded really- not an issue for local journeys, but it means someone with a longer distance ticket to Baghill who misses a connection at Sheffield won't have the option of travelling via Wakefield to reach Tanshelf instead.

Surprised me too... but you're not travelling directly to an alternative station, you'd have to change, so that would become an issue.

Can you still catch a train to/from Baghill? The remains of the Dearne Valley Line had become a rail replacement service, last I heard. If not, even less of an issue than it was with the infrequent service.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Surprised me too... but you're not travelling directly to an alternative station, you'd have to change, so that would become an issue.

Can you still catch a train to/from Baghill? The remains of the Dearne Valley Line had become a rail replacement service, last I heard. If not, even less of an issue than it was with the infrequent service.

Surely the infrequent service makes it more of an issue, not less. If the connection missed at Sheffield was the last northbound service of the day via the Dearne Valley, the "least-worst" option to get a passenger to Pontefract would be to allow them to board a service to either of the Wakefield stations where the other Pontefract stations can be reached with one change? If "Pontefract Stations" included Baghill too, where's the problem?

I don't see how the number of changes needed is relevant, especially for a station with such a limited service.

The services are currently running as trains, or were a week or so ago. Though even if they were buses my point still stands- a ticket to Baghill should automatically be valid to Monkhill or Tanshelf in the event of a missed connection. There doesn't seem to be any good reason for Baghill to be excluded from the "group". I can't see any way such a change could be abused, for example.

 

[Starmill]

Surely the infrequent service makes it more of an issue, not less. If the connection missed at Sheffield was the last northbound service of the day via the Dearne Valley, the "least-worst" option to get a passenger to Pontefract would be to allow them to board a service to either of the Wakefield stations where the other Pontefract stations can be reached with one change? If "Pontefract Stations" included Baghill too, where's the problem?

I don't see how the number of changes needed is relevant, especially for a station with such a limited service.

The services are currently running as trains, or were a week or so ago. Though even if they were buses my point still stands- a ticket to Baghill should automatically be valid to Monkhill or Tanshelf in the event of a missed connection. There doesn't seem to be any good reason for Baghill to be excluded from the "group". I can't see any way such a change could be abused, for example.

Northern Conductors would almost certainly be happy to give special permission to travel to Pontefract Monkhill if the intended service to Pontefract Baghill were disrupted, or a delay on a connecting service resulted in it being missed.

Grand Central, CrossCountry and LNER may take a different view however. If you asked nicely at the ticket office at Doncaster or Wakefield Westgate they'd probably give you a stamp authorising travel on LNER though.

I agree it would be a bit more useful if the arrangement were formalised.

 

[geoffk]

What about Exeter St. David's/Central? If you buy a ticket to Exeter from Bristol or Plymouth you get St. Davids. I assume you can ask for Central and there will an additional fare.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What about Exeter St. David's/Central? If you buy a ticket to Exeter from Bristol or Plymouth you get St. Davids. I assume you can ask for Central and there will an additional fare.

Is that the case? An Anytime Day Single from Bristol Temple Meads to Exeter Central is £35.40. As is an Anytime Day Single from Bristol Temple Meads to Exeter St. Davids. Same SDS fare also (in this case = £20.40) if travelling from Plymouth to either Exeter Central or Exeter St. Davids or Exeter St. Thomas.

Presume there's fare clustering at play here, so, in the absence of an Exeter station group, the key thing will be to take care to select the most appropriate Exeter station as your destination when purchasing tickets.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Balham and Wandsworth Common?

 

[geoffk]

Is that the case? An Anytime Day Single from Bristol Temple Meads to Exeter Central is £35.40. As is an Anytime Day Single from Bristol Temple Meads to Exeter St. Davids. Same SDS fare also (in this case = £20.40) if travelling from Plymouth to either Exeter Central or Exeter St. Davids or Exeter St. Thomas.

Presume there's fare clustering at play here, so, in the absence of an Exeter station group, the key thing will be to take care to select the most appropriate Exeter station as your destination when purchasing tickets.

OK thanks. Moving up country, I think Hyde North/Flowery Field has come up before.

 

[Haywain]

Balham and Wandsworth Common?

What would that achieve? They are two adjacent stations on the same line.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

What would that achieve? They are two adjacent stations on the same line.

Can station groups not be on the same line? They're pretty close together. In fact I'd say Wandsworth Common was more of a "West Balham" or "Upper Toting" if anything - but that's another story. But the point is many who want Balham will wander over to the Common anyway, and those specifically wanting the Common first may wander over to Balham for the Underground.

 

[Haywain]

Can station groups not be on the same line? They're pretty close together. In fact I'd say Wandsworth Common was more of a "West Balham" or "Upper Toting" if anything - but that's another story. But the point is many who want Balham will wander over to the Common anyway, and those specifically wanting the Common first may wander over to Balham for the Underground.

Station groups can be on the same line, but there would be no point in creating a group for next to no benefit. With these stations both being in Greater London the benefit is minimal as most users (probably the vast majority) will be using contactless or Oyster, and station groups are really a function of paper tickets. Of those using paper tickets, many will be using travelcards so the usefulness of a station group for these stations would be minimal.

 

[Starmill]

One that would be very useful indeed would be a ticket from Chinley or Chapel-en-le-Frith to Manchester Stations.

 

[Peter0124]

Coatbridge Central and Coatbridge Sunnyside.

 

[Starmill]

Can station groups not be on the same line? They're pretty close together. In fact I'd say Wandsworth Common was more of a "West Balham" or "Upper Toting" if anything - but that's another story. But the point is many who want Balham will wander over to the Common anyway, and those specifically wanting the Common first may wander over to Balham for the Underground.

Is there an issue with simply buying the ticket to the further of the two? How many flexible tickets to Balham or Wandsworth Common wouldn't offer break of journey rights? You can't do that in most of the cases people are suggesting because they're on different lines.

As pointed out above too very few people will be bothered because they'll be using pay as you go...

Although tickets are issued to Bristol Temple Meads or Bristol Parkway rather than 'Bristol Stations' I've had no problem arriving at one and departing from the other on a return ticket or going from Newport - Temple Meads or vice versa via Parkway.

What benefits would making a station group bring me?

If you were using a flexible ticket which prohibited break of journey, such as a Llanelli to Bristol Temple Meads return, you wouldn't be permitted to do this. In practice it would probably be allowed, but informally, and not as an entitlement.

There is absolutely no reason for that ticket to actually have that break of journey restriction in the first place, so you could argue that simply getting rid of it entirely is better than creating a group, but that's a slightly different question. One simplification I would be in favour of is just saying that flexible tickets all allow break of journey, the disadvantages are very minor and the benefits obvious, but that's for another thread really.

 

[Flying Claret]

The one I would do is Burnley Manchester Road / Central.

According to the new Merseyrail route diagrams, it will be a member of Liverpool Stations.


I'm fairly sure those are already inter-available formally.

The Burnley example is 'informally' in place. I've been travelling to Burnley and alternated between stations depending on the time. Never once has it been an issue. Usually from Manchester Rd, they will check that we don't need one of the intermediate stops.
Just as it should be.

 

[Starmill]

The Burnley example is 'informally' in place. I've been travelling to Burnley and alternated between stations depending on the time. Never once has it been an issue. Usually from Manchester Rd, they will check that we don't need one of the intermediate stops.
Just as it should be.

Yes. The conductors will always accept it, would be too ridiculous to try to do anything else of course. The only issue would be if there were RPIs at Burnley Manchester Road one day and didn't want you to ask the conductor if you could use your ticket from Burnley Central. In that incredibly unlikely circumstance you'd have no choice but to pay for a single to Accrington (or Rose Grove if your train calls there) to get past them. If a ticket to Brierfield is the same price I usually use that, because then you often do have the actual right to go via Burnley Manchester Road using the walking link. Bananas.

 

[Peter0124]

Just thought I'd resurrect this by saying that there should be a Glasgow station group that includes all of Glasgow Central, Glasgow Queen Street, Argyle Street, High Street, Anderston and Charing Cross.

Like what would happen if someone boarded the Lanark-Glasgow service at Cambuslang thinking it was the Argyle Street train (Dalmuir one) that comes shortly behind? Would the ticket from Cambuslang to Argyle Street be accepted at Central High Level's barriers? Argyle Street and Glasgow Central are just 560 metres apart.

That's why I think those 6 stations in the city centre should all be included under one station group. They are so close together.

Would also offer more flexibility in using both High and Low Level services especially on the Argyle Line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just thought I'd resurrect this by saying that there should be a Glasgow station group that includes all of Glasgow Central, Glasgow Queen Street, Argyle Street, High Street, Anderston and Charing Cross.

Like what would happen if someone boarded the Lanark-Glasgow service at Cambuslang thinking it was the Argyle Street train (Dalmuir one) that comes shortly behind? Would the ticket from Cambuslang to Argyle Street be accepted at Central High Level's barriers? Argyle Street and Glasgow Central are just 560 metres apart.

That's why I think those 6 stations in the city centre should all be included under one station group. They are so close together.

Yes, agree with that one. It's really no different to Merseyrail.

 

[ReturnToSPT]

New Mills Central/New Mills Newtown.