Steam on Fenchurch Street line

[PhilipRhayader]

Is anyone able to give me an approximate date for withdrawal of steam locomotives on the Fenchurch Street line, please?

I'm particularly interested in the last (if possible) steam locomotive at Thorpe Bay station as I lived just one hundred yards from the station during the 60s until heading north to university.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I assume you are talking passenger workings? I think it was 1962.
It was a massacre. As I remember, the Stanier 3-cyl 2-6-4Ts which had been specifically designed for the LT&SR were rapidly withdrawn on electrification. (the inside cylinder meant improved and smoother acceleration - at least in theory - but increased maintenance costs)
I suppose the modern 2-cylinder 2-6-4Ts which shared the workings were transferred.
Someone will come along with more specific info before too long.

 

[30907]

Wikipedia gives November 1961. The thread here may be of interest: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/lts-traction-pre-electrification.102310/
Apart from the seasonal excursion traffic from the Tottenham and Hampstead route, and the Upminster branches, I don't think the LTS saw diesels on passenger.

 

[DidcotDickie]

Wikipedia gives November 1961. The thread here may be of interest: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/lts-traction-pre-electrification.102310/
Apart from the seasonal excursion traffic from the Tottenham and Hampstead route, and the Upminster branches, I don't think the LTS saw diesels on passenger.

The electric service started running off-peak in November 1961 with the full service introduced by June 1962 (Eastern Electric by John Glover). Steam worked up to the end, though I do recall being hauled by a Brush Type 2 (later class 31) on LNER and BR suburban stock from Upminster to Thorpe Bay in the period immediately before the electrics were introduced. I haven't seen any pictures of the last steam service but I'd have thought it would have run around May/June 1962.

The Romford and Ockendon branches were DMU worked - electrics started on the Ockendon branch some months after the main line was complete.

 

[70014IronDuke]

The electric service started running off-peak in November 1961 with the full service introduced by June 1962 (Eastern Electric by John Glover). Steam worked up to the end, though I do recall being hauled by a Brush Type 2 (later class 31) on LNER and BR suburban stock from Upminster to Thorpe Bay in the period immediately before the electrics were introduced. I haven't seen any pictures of the last steam service but I'd have thought it would have run around May/June 1962.... .

That's kind of intriguing - off peak only? How come, do you know?

 

[PhilipRhayader]

Thanks for the responses. I lived there from 1957 or 1958 until 1968 so obviously would have seen and used steam locomotives (passenger).

 

[racyrich]

According to Middleton's 'Fenchurch St to Barking', the last peak hour steamer was the 18.10 on Friday 15/6/62 and the Monday was the first all electric day.

George Dow's 'London, Tilbury and Southend Album' has a pic of a 31, a 2-6-4 and 2 302s at the stops at Fen St in Nov 61.

The loco on that last Friday service, 42501, sat at Shoebury depot for 9 months and left under its own steam for scrap at Doncaster in March 63, the very last steam movement on the LTS (Down the Line to Southend, Muriel Searle).

 

[Taunton]

It was a big mass changeover in that June 1962 weekend, with a new timetable. Electric trains had made some infiltration beforehand, as much for crew training as anything, in fact they had been built a couple of years before, but had been used short term on the GE lines to help out with first the 1500v conversion and then the electrical failures that followed shortly afterwards.

The BR Standard 80xxx tank locos, unlike the 3-cylinder LMS ones, did indeed move on, many to the Western Region on the Cambrian and Central Wales lines; the WR had not had this class of locos before. They didn't last long there. Former LT&S locos were not normally welcomed at other depots as the water quality at Tilbury and Shoeburyness, despite extensive and necessary provision of water softening plants, was the worst on the whole of BR (well, somewhere had to be, and this was it), and the boilers suffered significantly, despite there being far more frequent washing out than elsewhere; I read that the steam loco fleet was about 15% higher than the average would expect, purely to cover so many washing out on any day.

That instant change is how it was often done at the time. The Glasgow Blue Trains did the same sudden switchover.

 

[MatthewRead]

Weren't the first 302's introduced on the line in 1958?

 

[70014IronDuke]

....

The BR Standard 80xxx tank locos, unlike the 3-cylinder LMS ones, did indeed move on, many to the Western Region on the Cambrian and Central Wales lines; the WR had not had this class of locos before. They didn't last long there. Former LT&S locos were not normally welcomed at other depots as the water quality at Tilbury and Shoeburyness, despite extensive and necessary provision of water softening plants, was the worst on the whole of BR (well, somewhere had to be, and this was it), and the boilers suffered significantly, despite there being far more frequent washing out than elsewhere; I read that the steam loco fleet was about 15% higher than the average would expect, purely to cover so many washing out on any day.
...

Very interesting. Probably another reason for prioritising electrification of the line. I have read somewhere (possibly in this forum) that the killer smogs of the 1950s constituted one of the main reasons for pushing the LT&S electrification.

So even when moved away, the boilers were 'infected' and didn't steam so well? Seems strange. I'd have thought once away, they would perform as any other loco.

 

[The_Engineer]

Weren't the first 302's introduced on the line in 1958?

No, 302s were first introduced on services out of Liverpool Street in 1958. LT&S electric services did not commence until 1961 as stated up thread. The 302s were transferred over then.

 

[Busaholic]

Very interesting. Probably another reason for prioritising electrification of the line. I have read somewhere (possibly in this forum) that the killer smogs of the 1950s constituted one of the main reasons for pushing the LT&S electrification.

So even when moved away, the boilers were 'infected' and didn't steam so well? Seems strange. I'd have thought once away, they would perform as any other loco.

Very interesting. Probably another reason for prioritising electrification of the line. I have read somewhere (possibly in this forum) that the killer smogs of the 1950s constituted one of the main reasons for pushing the LT&S electrification.

So even when moved away, the boilers were 'infected' and didn't steam so well? Seems strange. I'd have thought once away, they would perform as any other loco.

I was never caught in a smog on the north side of the Thames, but can't imagine that what I experienced at Gravesend, for instance, was any different at Tilbury. Even a teenager, non-asthmatic, like me found them quite challenging.

 

[Taunton]

The fog along the lower Thames was generally the worst in London. Think Charles Dickens. The smog overlaid this, and the fog still afflicts the City Airport. It was for this reason that the LTS lines had the Hudd AWS installed. Accounts of firemen actually having to go up the signalpost ladder to confirm if it was off. Locomotive smoke was considered a significant contributor. Gerry Fiennes wrote of the awful conditions at Stratford shed, BRs largest by a considerable margin, on Sunday evening when a couple of hundred locos were lighting up.

Regarding the boilers, washing out gets most of it out, but short of a General Overhaul with the boiler dismantled you don't get back to new condition. And by 1962 these had been given up for large passenger tanks, most of whose duties had gone to diesels or electrics before this.

 

[racyrich]

There was a bad crash in fog at Dagenham East in 1958.

 

[DidcotDickie]

That's kind of intriguing - off peak only? How come, do you know?

See my reference - John Glover's 'Eastern Electric' (an excellent book if you can get a copy)

 

[DidcotDickie]

No, 302s were first introduced on services out of Liverpool Street in 1958. <snip>.

That would not have gone well, as Liverpool St was 1500V DC up to November 1960.

The 302s were indeed introduced from 1958 but were tested initially on the Colchester-Clacton branch which was one of the 25kV test routes. According to John Glover in 'Eastern Electric', public services started in March 1959 with a revised timetable on the branch from April. They were also tested on the Styal line and in Scotland.

Liverpool St to Shenfield (and Southend Vic??) was switched from 1500V DC to 6.25kV overnight on 5/6th November 1960. The 302s were used to stand in for DC units (306/307) which were being converted. They were also used on the Hertford East/Bishops Stortford electrification when that went live in November 1960 due to problems with the new AC units (class 305) built for the route. This all held up introduction of electric trains on the LT&S so steam staggered on (literally in my rather dim memory), with the 302s not being introduced until 1961/62.

 

[DidcotDickie]

There was a bad crash in fog at Dagenham East in 1958.

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/eventsummary.php?eventID=114

Yep, my father was in the rear coach of the Thorpe Bay train which was destroyed by BR 2-6-4 tank 80079 hauling a Shoebury train which had run past signals at danger in the fog. He was pretty much unhurt but badly shocked. He never spoke to me about it (I was only 5 at the time) but he did recount the story to a neighbour of how the carriage completely came apart (this was wooden-bodied stock) and the leg of a lady travelling in an adjacent compartment suddenly appeared alongside him. Fortunately it was still attached to the lady concerned! I noted that he never travelled in the rear coach of a train after that.

80079 was not only repaired (it hit the Thorpe Bay train bunker-end on), but survived scrapping and is preserved. Last time I travelled on it was some years ago on the Severn Valley Line, when I pointed out to my children that they were being hauled by the engine which tried to kill their grandfather!

The fogs in the late 50s had to be seen to be believed, and SW Essex was always badly affected. I can recall walking to school being barely able to see the road beyond the curb. Hardly any traffic would be moving and all bus services withdrawn.

 

[Taunton]

Although the DC-AC switchover at Liverpool Street was at the end of 1960, enough AC stock needed to be in place to handle the full service from the first day, and although a few of the existing DC sets had been able to be spared to be converted in advance, the bulk was handled from the off by the Class 302s, which all had to be built and in place for the day. Meanwhile all the DC units then went through works. In fact about the first 20 of the LTS units were never eventually transferred back, and spent their operating lives on the GE lines.

It is misleading to call this conversion "25Kv", as the whole of the former 1500v DC section was only converted to 6.25Kv, right through to Southend Victoria. The switchover point on the main line was just beyond Shenfield, so the AC units only ran full voltage if sent to Chelmsford and beyond. On the LT&S the switchover was just beyond Barking on both routes; Fenchurch Street had also been wired originally at 1500v DC, although never used in earnest, and thus was part of the 6.25Kv conversion. There is a map showing the extent and the changeover points in the official report into the transformer explosions that happened on one type of the new electric units shortly after commissioning, which was a fault in the voltage changeover equipment that put 25Kv through the 6.25Kv connections in the motor coach.

 

[DidcotDickie]

Although the DC-AC switchover at Liverpool Street was at the end of 1960, enough AC stock needed to be in place to handle the full service from the first day, and although a few of the existing DC sets had been able to be spared to be converted in advance, the bulk was handled from the off by the Class 302s, which all had to be built and in place for the day. Meanwhile all the DC units then went through works. In fact about the first 20 of the LTS units were never eventually transferred back, and spent their operating lives on the GE lines.

Correct on both counts - sorry to keep referring to it but there's a very good account of the DC/AC switchover in John Glover's 'Eastern Electric' which details all the stock moves. And yes, several of the 302s remained on the GE. I think they were mostly used on Hertford East/Bishops Stortford services initially but ICBW.

It is misleading to call this conversion "25Kv", as the whole of the former 1500v DC section was only converted to 6.25Kv, right through to Southend Victoria. The switchover point on the main line was just beyond Shenfield, so the AC units only ran full voltage if sent to Chelmsford and beyond. On the LT&S the switchover was just beyond Barking on both routes; Fenchurch Street had also been wired originally at 1500v DC, although never used in earnest, and thus was part of the 6.25Kv conversion. There is a map showing the extent and the changeover points in the official report into the transformer explosions that happened on one type of the new electric units shortly after commissioning, which was a fault in the voltage changeover equipment that put 25Kv through the 6.25Kv connections in the motor coach.

Correct again, I had a brain fade moment when I wrote 25kV, it was 6.25kV - in fact BR found that they didn't have to change the insulators on the DC OLE for the higher voltage. Agree with you on the 6.25/25kV changeover points, Upney on the LT&S route to Upminster (there still is a neutral section there) and between Barking and Ripple Lane on the Tilbury loop line. Was the Southend area also 6.25kV - I'm not sure? I'll have another looks through the report you refer to.

 

[70014IronDuke]

...

The BR Standard 80xxx tank locos, unlike the 3-cylinder LMS ones, did indeed move on, many to the Western Region on the Cambrian and Central Wales lines; the WR had not had this class of locos before. They didn't last long there. Former LT&S locos were not normally welcomed at other depots as the water quality at Tilbury and Shoeburyness, despite extensive and necessary provision of water softening plants, was the worst on the whole of BR (well, somewhere had to be, and this was it), and the boilers suffered significantly, despite there being far more frequent washing out than elsewhere; I read that the steam loco fleet was about 15% higher than the average would expect, purely to cover so many washing out on any day.
.. .

As far as I've read, the LT&S tanks were very heavily worked, with v tight turnarounds by steam standards - so perhaps they did more miles per day than most similar locomotives elsewhere? This would then obviously mean more frequent washouts in terms of frequency of the in-service to stopped-for-washout cycle. Did the figures take this into account?
Interesting, whatever. Made me think of a more general question on boiler efficiency, which I'll post in another thread.

 

[Bevan Price]

That instant change is how it was often done at the time. The Glasgow Blue Trains did the same sudden switchover.

Yes - but at Glasgow, they encountered some problems with the Class 303s, and a temporary steam service replaced the electrics for several weeks during 1961 (and thereby I got my only ride behind a Gresley Class V3 2-6-2tank..

 

[gilbert123]

a couple of points to add to the above
i saw a class 5 (stanier) en route to southend in the summer 1964. very run down and with a badly knocking big end . it was travelling very slowly , with a few parcels vans in tow.
a lot (most?) of the standard tanks went to scotland .i,m pretty sure 80079 was one of these . a lot of the 100 series went there, at least one of which has survived . the Bluebell has at least one of these.
Hudd ATC was fitted to LTS locos
the Tilbury boat trains continued to run to and from St. Pancras after the demise of steam and would have been diesel hauled.additionally 9Fs could be found on Plaistow shed having come from Wellingboro , if memory serves.
Plaistow , 33A, closed 30/6/62 ish but there were still locos to be found in good numbersfor some time after
there was an Austerity saddle tank at Shoebury ,no/ 68075 which remained after the end of steam ,in use as a stationary boiler. dunno when it was removed tho ,or what became of it .----I do now , it was disposed at the end of 1963, from Colwick allegedly , which I don't believe . I reckon it was from Shoebury.