Steve Coogan argues with conductor over passengers standing in First Class section

[TPO]

It's a shame to see a good bit of bickering and slightly off-topic conversation about whether people like Steve Coogan or not has got in the way of the facts.

The train wasn't short formed. The portion from Littlehampton is usually less busy than the portion from Eastbourne - people could have waited 5 minutes and walked through to the Littlehampton portion after the attachment at Haywards Heath.

First Class accomodation is for First Class ticket holders only. End of story. If passengers want a better chance of a seat..guess what.. they should have gone to the ticket office before their journey began and bought a First Class ticket.

It's not 'end of story.' Irrespective of the facts of this particular case, if trains are frequently overcrowded so that people have to stand, first-class accommodation should be abolished.

Passengers jammed into cattle-truck conditions may have been totally unaware that another 4 coaches would later be attached. Even if they were aware, would there be enough time to get off one set and onto the next? Would the rear set prove to be full if they tried?

If one set was full and one not so, were there no announcements made at Haywards Heath and time given for passengers to move to the more empty set? If not, then this is a "fail" by the TOC. If both sets were jammed and First not declassified, again a "fail"- especially as such a "fail" would have rewarded the TOC financially (paying compensation to 1st class ticket holders).

I would personally remove free first class travel from all rail employees (including/especially senior managers), give them standard class only, and for TOCs and Network Rail make it a condition of their job that staff who are not on shifts travel to and from and within work by train, and not allow their senior managers working hours which would allow them to commute outside the peak. Perhaps then whilst regularly travelling standard in a ram-loaded train they would have a little more sympathy with the people who pay their own money to travel on the train and too-often are jammed in like sardines, and be motivated to do something about it (in fairness most Guards and other traincrew fully understand as they see it, but I do wonder sometimes about the middle-managers and above). I would do the same with all the DfT people involved in rail.

I remember once a senior TOC chap describing an annual season ticket purchase on the South East commuter lines as "the ultimate distress purchase." Seeing as this is the case, the usual mechanisms of accountability don't work on many TOCs (i.e. people are only on the train in the first place as they have no other option), so there really needs to be some stringent and reliable passenger satisfaction performance measure to which senior managers bonuses and in fact basic pay are linked. Only when senior management (and indeed middle management) are properly accountable and thus incentivised in their own pocket will things improve.

TPO

 

[DarloRich]

reading the whole article and thread it seems like fluff and wibble about nonsense.

 

[cuccir]

reading the whole article and thread it seems like fluff and wibble about nonsense.

Unfortunately that would describe all or most of the 'Indy100' junk that now dumps on what little was left of the Independent's decent reputation.

 

[Mingulay]

I'm a huge fan as well - I can quote Alan Partridge practically word-for-word ("not now, Lynn, these are sex people!"), and in all the interviews and things I've seen, Coogan comes across as a really decent guy. He was certainly quite prominent at the time of the phone-hacking scandals, as he was one of the victims, and he doggedly stood up for the people affected and argued passionately for justice for them. Really increased my respect for him.

I agree . Think he is a decent enough guy as celebrities go . Stood up to the scum tabloid journalists and Murdoch , so we all should give him credit for that. I find the unwavering support for the guard and contempt for Coogan rather shocking in some posts.
I find the guards on Scotrail overwhelmingly decent and keen to help passengers . You get the odd one that cant see beyond regulations and makes a drama quite unnecessarily so. I took a guard to task a few years ago . We were short stopped at Stirling again . Stirling staff advised us all to board the Aberdeen train which was now instructed to stop at Dunblane and B of A . This was via station pa and we all boarded as directed . The guard then made a further announcement he would not stop at B of A as not instructed to , so all get off the train , many refused asking him to check. He refused and insisted we all get off. I asked him to enquire that if it was announced that we were to board it was perhaps cleared . He refused . He then further refused to allow the train to depart , delaying his train and others until I accepted he was right and I was wrong . I advised him politely I would not accept his word over the station staff unless he checked with control. He refused . I reported the incident to Scotrail and I got a call from Customer relations who admitted the guard had not handled it well. So in the main the guards are good , but some just don't get the customer service thing. So Coogan right / decent here, guard could have assessed the situation better. Lets not forget . Passengers should not have to suffer overcrowding anyway, so the rail industry needs to be a tad more flexible and staff on the trains should appreciate that . Particularly TOCs in the London area .

 

[Clip]

Passengers jammed into cattle-truck conditions may have been totally unaware that another 4 coaches would later be attached. Even if they were aware, would there be enough time to get off one set and onto the next? Would the rear set prove to be full if they tried?

TPO

It would be as simple as walking through the gangway would it not?

I would personally remove free first class travel from all rail employees (including/especially senior managers), give them standard class only, and for TOCs and Network Rail make it a condition of their job that staff who are not on shifts travel to and from and within work by train, and not allow their senior managers working hours which would allow them to commute outside the peak. Perhaps then whilst regularly travelling standard in a ram-loaded train they would have a little more sympathy with the people who pay their own money to travel on the train and too-often are jammed in like sardines, and be motivated to do something about it (in fairness most Guards and other traincrew fully understand as they see it, but I do wonder sometimes about the middle-managers and above). I would do the same with all the DfT people involved in rail.

TPO

It seems a very strange thread to bring in first class facilities for staff into the equation - especially as very few people actually have them

 

[Mingulay]

Passengers jammed into cattle-truck conditions may have been totally unaware that another 4 coaches would later be attached. Even if they were aware, would there be enough time to get off one set and onto the next? Would the rear set prove to be full if they tried?

If one set was full and one not so, were there no announcements made at Haywards Heath and time given for passengers to move to the more empty set? If not, then this is a "fail" by the TOC. If both sets were jammed and First not declassified, again a "fail"- especially as such a "fail" would have rewarded the TOC financially (paying compensation to 1st class ticket holders).

I would personally remove free first class travel from all rail employees (including/especially senior managers), give them standard class only, and for TOCs and Network Rail make it a condition of their job that staff who are not on shifts travel to and from and within work by train, and not allow their senior managers working hours which would allow them to commute outside the peak. Perhaps then whilst regularly travelling standard in a ram-loaded train they would have a little more sympathy with the people who pay their own money to travel on the train and too-often are jammed in like sardines, and be motivated to do something about it (in fairness most Guards and other traincrew fully understand as they see it, but I do wonder sometimes about the middle-managers and above). I would do the same with all the DfT people involved in rail.

I remember once a senior TOC chap describing an annual season ticket purchase on the South East commuter lines as "the ultimate distress purchase." Seeing as this is the case, the usual mechanisms of accountability don't work on many TOCs (i.e. people are only on the train in the first place as they have no other option), so there really needs to be some stringent and reliable passenger satisfaction performance measure to which senior managers bonuses and in fact basic pay are linked. Only when senior management (and indeed middle management) are properly accountable and thus incentivised in their own pocket will things improve.

TPO

"First class idea" to remove first class travel from staff / managers . Think there was a previous thread on an arrogant manager chucking folk out first class as he sprawled across 2 seats, which generated similar controversy. Your suggestion would find favour with many Im sure

 

[js1000]

Contrary to popular belief on here, I'm afraid there are occasions the guard has to use common sense and stop being a little Hitler to de-escalate the situation. Most guards are reasonable, salt of the earth folk - sadly there are a few jobsworths out there who have never come across the word 'tact' and are incapable of dealing with people appropriately.

If a 1st class passenger in a small first class area doesn't mind passengers standing there because the train is short-formed (4 carriages instead of 8) - let it be for gods sake. Don't waste time arguing with them and other passengers because that never goes down well.

 

[greyman42]

I would personally remove free first class travel from all rail employees (including/especially senior managers)

Why especially senior managers?

 

[Darandio]

Ridiculous. How would "the formal channels" helped those specific people on that service? "Confronting" is Daily Mail speak for "speaking to".

The guard was clearly entrenching himself, having clearly made the wrong decision to move these people on a very unreasonably packed service.

And you clearly know this? How?

 

[bramling]

Contrary to popular belief on here, I'm afraid there are occasions the guard has to use common sense and stop being a little Hitler to de-escalate the situation. Most guards are reasonable, salt of the earth folk - sadly there are a few jobsworths out there who have never come across the word 'tact' and are incapable of dealing with people appropriately.

If a 1st class passenger in a small first class area doesn't mind passengers standing there because the train is short-formed (4 carriages instead of 8) - let it be for gods sake. Don't waste time arguing with them and other passengers because that never goes down well.

The moment standard passengers start using the accommodation it then becomes an issue if a first class passenger boards and wishes to use the accommodation, as they are quite rightly and reasonably entitled to expect to do.

If we don’t agree that first should be offered then fine that’s a quite reasonable viewpoint - and on commuter routes I’m increasingly coming to that viewpoint simply on practicality reasons. However the fact that it *is* offered and money is taken from people in return for the offer of a particular product - which on Southern generally doesn’t offer much else apart from better chance of a seat - means that in my view it shouldn’t be being declassified unless there’s an exceptional reason. By the look of it this service certainly wasn’t grossly overcrowded, even if all standard seats may have been taken.

 

[infobleep]

From what I've heard, this was the 08:46 departure from Lewes (so this service: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W69042/2018/09/05/advanced). It is booked to be a 4 car 377, but further coaches are attached at Haywards Heath. The PIS says that the next station was Wivelsfield, so the train would have been at its normal 4 car length at the time of the recording.

If there isn't enough space on a train that isn't short formed then I tend to find they don't declassify it. 18:39 Waterloo to Poole, when it use to be 5 cars, was never declassified. You'd be lucky to get a seat at Clapham Junction. Perhaps it was never rammed enough. I'm sure, if I recall correctly, I once heard a guard say it was too busy for him to walk through the train though.

I have also been on short formed trains that aren't declassified but that's not so common. More likely they will be declassified.

 

[infobleep]

He isn't abusing anyone, there's no evidence he swore or was aggressive or intimidating towards the ticket inspector, he's asking why people cannot stand (not sit down) in first on what appears to be a jam packed train, surely you don't think the decisions of ticket inspectors are beyond question?

Steve probably didn't know that to stand in first class you must have a first class ticket unless it's been declassified.

I believe a first class ticket entitles you to. Be in the first class section. Isn't a seat just a good will bonus?

 

[infobleep]

First Class accomodation is for First Class ticket holders only. End of story. If passengers want a better chance of a seat..guess what.. they should have gone to the ticket office before their journey began and bought a First Class ticket.

I see there were seats avilable so that was indeed possible but even if they wished to stand in first class, on account of there being no seats to sit down on in first class, they should buy a first class tixket

 

[infobleep]

You are allowed to walk through, just not to remain in there (including any vestibules marked as 1st).

Does that include walking through a Virgin West Coast train first class section as it pulls into Euston?

 

[infobleep]

It’s all very well saying the overcrowding should be considered and dealt with, but this isn’t always possible. Declassify first at the drop of a hat and it will quite reasonably annoy those who have paid to use it.

I think there’s a case for declassifying if a train is shortformed, or perhaps if it’s grossly overcrowded due to some kind of disruption.


Maybe, but that’s a different discussion to whether it should be declassified as soon as an individual service gets busy.

If it exists then it should be respected, otherwise what’s the point in having it. Obviously it’s a little different if there’s an exceptional situation like disruption or a train being shortformed.

If a train that is short formed and declassified, has as many passengers on it as a train not short formed and declassified, should the not short formed train have actually been declassified as well or should the short formed train have not been declassified.

How busy does a train have to be before it is declassified?

 

[bramling]

If a train that is short formed and declassified, has as many passengers on it as a train not short formed and declassified, should the not short formed train have actually been declassified as well or should the short formed train have not been declassified.

How busy does a train have to be before it is declassified?

I think these questions illustrate well why the topic is a bit of a can of worms - these are awkward questions. And no doubt there are more scenarios - like what if a service is unusually busy due to an event, cancellation of a preceding service, et cetera.

In that sense it could be argued to be easier and fairer to just have a blanket no declassifying policy.

 

[tsr]

"First class idea" to remove first class travel from staff / managers . Think there was a previous thread on an arrogant manager chucking folk out first class as he sprawled across 2 seats, which generated similar controversy. Your suggestion would find favour with many Im sure

Removing First Class entitlements would be reasonably pointless, as very few people employed in the rail industry will ever actually remove colleagues who have a reasonable requirement to travel in any publicly-available section or compartment of the train.

If anything, it’s probably more likely not to have any class of travel shown on staff passes, with the simple instruction that any fare-paying passenger should be offered the seat if they have paid for it but would otherwise have to stand.

If 1st class passenger in a small first class area doesn't mind passengers standing there because the train is short-formed (4 carriages instead of 8) - let it be for gods sake. Don't waste time arguing with them and other passengers because that never goes down well.

I’m not exactly certain the train was shortformed, and even if it was, there could have been other First Class ticket holders who objected to others being allowed to take seats without permission. It’s not hard to ask the guard/OBS/whomever, and often they will allow reasonable requests to use First with a Standard ticket with prior permission.

And you clearly know this? How?

They don’t know it, because at least one or two of their points are incorrect.

I believe a first class ticket entitles you to. Be in the first class section. Isn't a seat just a good will bonus?

Not quite, at least on Southern. First Class is effectively an area for people who have paid for a seat reservation and you will typically get at least a partial refund if you hold a First ticket but no such seats are available / all are taken.

 

[AlterEgo]

Steve Coogan is entitled to talk calmly to the guard to express his dissatisfaction. That’s exactly what he did. I don’t see that he did anything wrong.

 

[E759]

Actually I think it is in the front car of the train. Between about 0:46 and 0:49, - it's just possible to see that the trees outside the RHS windows are moving towards the camera.
p.s. sorry about too many 'actually's.

Was the train passing Hove at the time

 

[dk1]

On the subject of staff travel in 1st class unless you remove that accommodation altogether then it is not an option that is always easy to do. At my particular TOC it is an official agreement that any employee with 25yrs service & in the driving grade at that anniversary is entitled to travel first class for leisure.

 

[LowLevel]

At our TOC all employees have some degree of entitlement to travel in first class ranging from a few boxes at the start to full unrestricted travel after 15 years for all/for certain grades of managers.

There are a number of weeks through the year when all management first class travel is cancelled and they're instructed to travel standard class as a back to the floor style exercise.

Every now and then we have the 'strip them of free travel' blah blah blah.

We work for a railway company. Thus we get discounted railway travel, with conditions. Car salesmen get cheap cars. Shop workers get discounts.

This is I believe a fairly normal part of the niceties of employment.

 

[Rail Blues]

At our TOC all employees have some degree of entitlement to travel in first class ranging from a few boxes at the start to full unrestricted travel after 15 years for all/for certain grades of managers.

There are a number of weeks through the year when all management first class travel is cancelled and they're instructed to travel standard class as a back to the floor style exercise.

Every now and then we have the 'strip them of free travel' blah blah blah.

We work for a railway company. Thus we get discounted railway travel, with conditions. Car salesmen get cheap cars. Shop workers get discounts.

This is I believe a fairly normal part of the niceties of employment.

I agree that restricting or removing first class travel for TOC managers wouldn't make a dent in overcrowding and isn't really a solution to the problem, but it has the potential to create horrendous pr like when that manager at govia decided to start acting like a prat. Also it smacks of sending a message to customers: 'standard class: good enough for you, not good enough for us.' A bit like when Tory education ministers would send their own kids to private schools.

 

[Bantamzen]

At our TOC all employees have some degree of entitlement to travel in first class ranging from a few boxes at the start to full unrestricted travel after 15 years for all/for certain grades of managers.

There are a number of weeks through the year when all management first class travel is cancelled and they're instructed to travel standard class as a back to the floor style exercise.

Every now and then we have the 'strip them of free travel' blah blah blah.

We work for a railway company. Thus we get discounted railway travel, with conditions. Car salesmen get cheap cars. Shop workers get discounts.

This is I believe a fairly normal part of the niceties of employment.

Sadly in this country many people see other people's wages and perks as a reason to rant. Similarly when people are just doing the job they've been told to and not fallen at the complainant's feet they are berated. I'm afraid it speaks more about these people than it does about the employees.

 

[NoOnesFool]

I'm not sure what staff travel has to do with this thread, only a small minority of First Class users are staff and I would be surprised if there were any off duty staff in First Class on the train in question.

 

[yorkie]

I'm not sure what staff travel has to do with this thread, only a small minority of First Class users are staff and I would be surprised if there were any off duty staff in First Class on the train in question.

Agreed. There is no suggestion that there was any such issue on this train.

Can we please get back on topic, though I'm not sure there is much more to discuss really.

 

[infobleep]

. Not quite, at least on Southern. First Class is effectively an area for people who have paid for a seat reservation and you will typically get at least a partial refund if you hold a First ticket but no such seats are available / all are taken.

I didn't know that. Thanks for correcting me. Is the refund the additional cost of the first class ticket over a standard class one?

 

[tsr]

I didn't know that. Thanks for correcting me. Is the refund the additional cost of the first class ticket over a standard class one?

Normally, yes.

 

[infobleep]

Normally, yes.

So no need for anyone to stand in first class on some TOCs at least, unless they are formally declassified.

 

[UP13]

And i'm sure Steve would be just as pragmatic when someone tries to tell him how to do his job. Provided they got past his agent first of course.

To be fair comedians do often get heckled...

 

[goblinuser]

And i'm sure Steve would be just as pragmatic when someone tries to tell him how to do his job. Provided they got past his agent first of course.

I don't think customer service is a part of his job description....