Carmont (near Stonehaven) derailment - 12 August 2020

[py_megapixel]

I'm sure the transport correspondent on tonight's Radio 4 PM mentioned something about the driver of the HST "looking for a different track" after encountering the first landslip.

What?

I'd have thought that the need for movements on the railway to be authorised by the signaller, and the fact that a track is something which is fairly obvious and not something the driver needs to "look for", to be fairly obvious facts to anyone with a rudimentary understanding of what a railway is.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

There is all types of stock that could have hit that, an LNER train or a sleeper with more carriages, as you said a 158 all would have been pretty bad, it isn't just the strength of the carriage, being flung upside down or rolling down an embankment with no way of stopping yourself would still do damage to your body regardless of how much damage to the carriage there is.

Yes, the sleeper would not have been good (not that anything would have been!)

The 158 comment was mainly about the aluminium body construction - the centre car of the Turbo at Ladbroke Grove demonstrated the (lack of) strength of this material in a high energy collision.

 

[weastebusdepot]

Am I write to assume that as it had to turn around due to problems ahead, the train in question ended up being the first Northbound train of the day over the section of track in question?

2B13 Montrose-Inverurie (which was terminated at Stonehaven) passed over that section of track at some point between 0658 and 0713. What we don't know is how much time passed between then, 1T08 passing over it and the emergency services being called at 0943. I'd imagine that having reached the obstruction on the up line, 1T08 would have been stationary for some time while driver, signaller and control liased on the next move.

ITV News had a rudimentary map showing the position of incident was as the train was heading north. It only seems to be the BBC's Tom Burridge that still maintains it was heading back to Glasgow on another line. Maybe confused belief that the down line actually goes down the country?

 

[dosxuk]

The BBC doesn't appear to care much about accurate reporting any more.

Multiple rail vehicles ended up going down an embankment. Until there is a public statement by one of the responding groups there's not much the BBC can report apart from rumour, and I think given how close they got to the truth they've done reasonably well.

The original reports about carriages going down the embankment may have terrified people who were waiting for news about their relatives

I'm sure those relatives would have been much more relaxed after hearing that while only one carriage actually went down the embankment, it was on fire, and of the other three, one was upside down and another was crushed beneath the other two. Much more relaxed. Note they didn't start showing any pictures of the actual accident until after the BTP released their statement, even though they will have seen all the same images that were posted here, and this will mostly be down to trying not to scare relatives.

Remember the mainstream media is not there to be an expert voice on all subjects. It's there to inform the masses. The masses who won't care if the back vehicle in the consist was a locomotive or a trailer. Or what movements exactly the carriages went through during the accident. As long as they got the correct place, correct destination, correct departure / arrival time, and how many people are involved in the right ball park, the vast majority of viewers will be happy with what they have been told. I suspect a lot of the confusion about whether it was travelling north or south at the time is to do with clearly stating it was the Aberdeen to Glasgow (southbound) service. If you start telling people it had turned around and was going north now, they may well assume it had got to Glasgow and was on the return journey. Especially remember this when the media are trying to tell you about something you aren't personally expert in - don't expect to learn the exact details of other subject, you're only going to get a good summary at best.

 

[LAX54]

A very minor point to the above; but just so it is clear to all.

If the above occurs or there’s a driver “drops the DSD” it will send a DSD alarm to the signaller via the GSMR which sounds exactly the same as an urgent call, which is a number of repeated beeps.

The REC (Emergency) call is far more distinctive.

The similarity has been raised a few times, one is bit quieter than the other, when the REC call goes, your blood runs cold, you are 95% certain of what you are going to hear when you answer (REC is the same as the Star Trek Red Alert , and loud)

 

[Tom B]

What?

I'd have thought that the need for movements on the railway to be authorised by the signaller, and the fact that a track is something which is fairly obvious and not something the driver needs to "look for", to be fairly obvious facts to anyone with a rudimentary understanding of what a railway is.

I fear that you are crediting the man on the clapham omnibus with far more railway knowledge than is the case!

 

[snookertam]

No. There was a 158 (2B13) from Montrose to Inverurie before it.

Has that been confirmed? It’s shown as passing Carmont at 06:58, which is nearly 3 hours prior to this incident. Those two trains should have passed each other around there if on time, but remember 1T08 seems to have reached the original land slip then spent some time in the area before coming back.

apologies meant to quote another post that referred to there being 15 minutes between trains.

 

[43096]

A very minor point to the above; but just so it is clear to all.

If the above occurs or there’s a driver “drops the DSD” it will send a DSD alarm to the signaller via the GSMR which sounds exactly the same as an urgent call, which is a number of repeated beeps.

The REC (Emergency) call is far more distinctive.

The DSD alarm is probably irrelevant in this case as the cab has detached from the power car and the GSM-R antenna is on the roof at the rear of the power car above the van.

 

[LAX54]

Out if interest is the DSD GSMR alarm a regular annoyance for signallers, I.e. drivers slow to react and 99.9% of the time a red faced driver calls up afterwards? Or would a signaller be taken by surprise with this and jump into action immediately?

Very rare to come fcrom Drivers, however within the depot with cleaners, fitters etc, quite regular !

 

[Megafuss]

2B13 Montrose-Inverurie (which was terminated at Stonehaven) passed over that section of track at some point between 0658 and 0713. What we don't know is how much time passed between then, 1T08 passing over it and the emergency services being called at 0943. I'd imagine that having reached the obstruction on the up line, 1T08 would have been stationary for some time while driver, signaller and control liased on the next move.

ITV News had a rudimentary map showing the position of incident was as the train was heading north. It only seems to be the BBC's Tom Burridge that still maintains it was heading back to Glasgow on another line. Maybe confused belief that the down line actually goes down the country?

The RAIB are best placed to investigate and the reports are very detailed so I assume the time in between the decision to terminate that Northbound train in Stonehaven and whatever happened to the HST (assuming it was indeed headed back to Aberdeen) is going to be key

 

[BenW390Fan]

I've just heard about a moments silence at 8PM tonight, is this true? Would be nice to think about those lost

 

[Swanny200]

2B13 Montrose-Inverurie (which was terminated at Stonehaven) passed over that section of track at some point between 0658 and 0713. What we don't know is how much time passed between then, 1T08 passing over it and the emergency services being called at 0943. I'd imagine that having reached the obstruction on the up line, 1T08 would have been stationary for some time while driver, signaller and control liased on the next move.

Channel 4 just mentioned the time discrepancy, 2B13 would have passed 1T08 presumably stopped, 1T08 was on RTT as passing Carmont at 07:00, so that is over 2 and a half hours, factor in waiting for authorization from control etc... How long was it between the incident and the phonecall?

Yes, the sleeper would not have been good (not that anything would have been!)

The 158 comment was mainly about the aluminium body construction - the centre car of the Turbo at Ladbroke Grove demonstrated the (lack of) strength of this material in a high energy collision.

I wasn't having a dig and apologies if you thought I was, a 158 probably would have been worse case out of all of them but none of them would have been desirable, even a 66 with a full load would have potentially ended up with loss of life, Aluminium is great for certain things but can be absolutely useless in others, Ladbroke Grove is one clear point about this.

 

[Journeyman]

I severely hope this doesn't have too much of negative public-relations impact on the railway.
In particular, I hope the awful far right tabloids don't use it as an excuse to put down trains, or public transport as a whole.

While I feel for those who have been severely impacted by this, it's important to note that these accidents are rare, and all I can hope for now is that this will never happen again.

Sadly, it's hard to see with the current information what could have been done to prevent it. I imagine the RAIB will tell us that in due course, however.

I know what you mean - with the general "railways in this country are terrible" opinion that many people hold, comes an opinion that they're also death traps. I've heard people express this idea regularly, and they often refuse to believe me when I point out that not only are railways vastly safer than road transport, the UK network is one of the safest in the world. It's going to be a challenge to reassure people now.

 

[TheEdge]

The very fact that anyone survived a disaster like this - especially with non-major injuries - is a testament to the excellent build quality of the HST's. An accident like this could have potentially been much worse if it had been a different type of train.

To me this more proves quite how poor HSTs and Mark 3s are in comparison to modern stock. The 390 involved at Greyrigg came off the line at 95mph, went down an embankment, tumbled and remained structurally sound, mostly intact and coupled. As I understand it linespeed here was 75 but its likely the HST was doing significantly less, and we have one coach demolished, two upside down, one on it own down an embankment and a severely damaged power car.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

To me this more proves quite how poor HSTs and Mark 3s are in comparison to modern stock. The 390 involved at Greyrigg came off the line at 95mph, went down an embankment, tumbled and remained structurally sound, mostly intact and coupled. As I understand it linespeed here was 75 but its likely the HST was doing significantly less, and we have one coach demolished, two upside down, one on it own down an embankment and a severely damaged power car.

And until the RAIB report, no accurate version of events leading to the aforementioned situation.

 

[Journeyman]

To me this more proves quite how poor HSTs and Mark 3s are in comparison to modern stock. The 390 involved at Greyrigg came off the line at 95mph, went down an embankment, tumbled and remained structurally sound, mostly intact and coupled. As I understand it linespeed here was 75 but its likely the HST was doing significantly less, and we have one coach demolished, two upside down, one on it own down an embankment and a severely damaged power car.

Yeah, I think we need to stop pretending the Mark 3 is some sort of crash worthiness gold standard. It was when it was new, but the design is now nearly 50 years old, and these are among the oldest vehicles still in service. Any train in service today should have performed at least as well, and I'd expect most modern designs to perform better.

It would only have been much worse if the train was formed of Mark 1s, to be honest.

 

[elbows47]

If I remember correctly, not long after it was new, 158862 was run into very hard near Stockport - I went past a few days later and the body had had the cab crushed and the body bent upwards by the leading bogie. Needless to say 52862 was written off and the spare bodyshell kept at Derby was fitted up with 52862's interior and running gear. It was numbered 52862 (2) and joined undamaged 57862. If you check the bodyshell serial numbers, imprinted on the mounts over the rear bogie, all other units have both coaches very close in number but 52862 has a very high number.

 

[Speed43125]

Yeah, I think we need to stop pretending the Mark 3 is some sort of crash worthiness gold standard. It was when it was new, but the design is now nearly 50 years old, and these are among the oldest vehicles still in service. Any train in service today should have performed at least as well, and I'd expect most modern designs to perform better.

I admit this is pure conjecture, but to what extent has the Wabtec refurbishment interfered with the structure of the vehicles? certainly the roofs look to be a mess of old and new welded together. Is the refurbishment deep enough to impact the structure of the vehicle? for example if part of the structure was corroded, cut out and replacement metal put in, could that affect the overall strength of the vehicle?

 

[Ianno87]

I know what you mean - with the general "railways in this country are terrible" opinion that many people hold, comes an opinion that they're also death traps. I've heard people express this idea regularly, and they often refuse to believe me when I point out that not only are railways vastly safer than road transport, the UK network is one of the safest in the world. It's going to be a challenge to reassure people now.

This will, in my view, be different to the "oh, not another one" that was prevailing in the 1990s / early 2000s. If anything, today's tragedy might remind the public of quite how rare these events are in the grand scheme of things (given most folk will struggle to even remember Grayrigg)

 

[hst43102]

To me this more proves quite how poor HSTs and Mark 3s are in comparison to modern stock. The 390 involved at Greyrigg came off the line at 95mph, went down an embankment, tumbled and remained structurally sound, mostly intact and coupled. As I understand it linespeed here was 75 but its likely the HST was doing significantly less, and we have one coach demolished, two upside down, one on it own down an embankment and a severely damaged power car.

But a 390 would not have been in the location. It would have otherwise been a 158 or 170 - which would have been far worse than the HST.

EDIT - I made some unnecessary speculation here, so I've striked through my comment.

 

[Darandio]

But a 390 would not have been in the location. It would have otherwise been a 158 or 170 - which would have been far worse than the HST.

Please don't. You have no idea how either of those would have fared in similar circumstances, there are far too many variables.

 

[rebmcr]

But a 390 would not have been in the location. It would have otherwise been a 158 or 170 - which would have been far worse than the HST.

Mk5s, Voyagers, and IETs also use that route.

 

[Journeyman]

But a 390 would not have been in the location. It would have otherwise been a 158 or 170 - which would have been far worse than the HST.

How do you know that? No 158 or 170 has been involved in a similar accident, but the design is much newer in both cases. We need to stop idolising the Mark 3. Sure, it's better than Mark 1s, but none of those are still running.

 

[Titch]

158862 was run into very hard near Stockport

Completely insignificant in the grand-scheme of things, considering the events of earlier today, but just a small correction: it was 158861 that was pranged at Hazel Grove, not 862.

As always, thoughts go out to everyone caught up in this morning’s tragedy.

 

[dubscottie]

I admit this is pure conjecture, but to what extent has the Wabtec refurbishment interfered with the structure of the vehicles? certainly the roofs look to be a mess of old and new welded together. Is the refurbishment deep enough to impact the structure of the vehicle? for example if part of the structure was corroded, cut out and replacement metal put in, could that affect the overall strength of the vehicle?

One of the things mentioned after the Ufton accident was that First had removed the central partitions during refurbishment.

There was speculation that this had made GW Mk3s more likely to fold in half during a accident. They were made of metal and welded in as part of the body for a reason.

 

[Grizz]

Totally gutted by todays events and thoughts go out those affected. Felt numb looking at the initial photos, Especially as the ‘other‘ power car was no where in sight and smoke rising.

With regard to expectations of accuracy about specific information relating rolling stock, track and signalling equipment, embankments, structures or anything else.
. What do you expect from at totally anti rail media. They will never get it right without the help of Railway Professionals. Don’t forget that generally the main stream media in the UK has a proud history of it’s total ignorance of railways and rail operation, it’s terms and language. That way it can rip the p**s out of ‘anoraks‘ or anyone else who is so un cool as to like trains.. It is a badge of honour they have worn with pride for many many years. Most normals are fed a consistent diet of negative railway stories made up of half truths at best and out right lies and fantasy.

Since the last fatal crash, at Greyrig, how many people have died on the uk roads? How many people have been killed by so called professional road hauliers? Nothing changes and that isn’t reported with such interest is it.

Just watched Channel 4 news and the presenter is still saying a locomotive and four coaches have derailed and a loco and three coaches have gone down an embankment. They are a joke.

 

[irish_rail]

To me this more proves quite how poor HSTs and Mark 3s are in comparison to modern stock. The 390 involved at Greyrigg came off the line at 95mph, went down an embankment, tumbled and remained structurally sound, mostly intact and coupled. As I understand it linespeed here was 75 but its likely the HST was doing significantly less, and we have one coach demolished, two upside down, one on it own down an embankment and a severely damaged power car.

I quite agree. It is very worrying to me as a HST driver that the cab has completely come off the rest of the locomotive. Once this happens the driver has virtually no chance of survival. Seems rather a floor in the design, although I know it is useful from time to time for repair work.

 

[Swanny200]

How do you know that? No 158 or 170 has been involved in a similar accident, but the design is much newer in both cases. We need to stop idolising the Mark 3. Sure, it's better than Mark 1s, but none of those are still running.

As stated earlier, the 158's are Aluminium, the same as the Thames Turbo, which did not fare well at Ladbroke Grove under heavy impact

 

[Ianno87]

Since the last fatal crash, at Greyrig, how many people have died on the uk roads? How many people have been killed by so called professional road hauliers? Nothing changes and that isn’t reported with such interest is it.

It's probably quite easy to work out the number of passenger rail journeys made safely in the UK since 2007 (until today)... somewhere in the region of 20 billion by my estimation....?

 

[bramling]

To me this more proves quite how poor HSTs and Mark 3s are in comparison to modern stock. The 390 involved at Greyrigg came off the line at 95mph, went down an embankment, tumbled and remained structurally sound, mostly intact and coupled. As I understand it linespeed here was 75 but its likely the HST was doing significantly less, and we have one coach demolished, two upside down, one on it own down an embankment and a severely damaged power car.

I don't think one can really say one way or other on this. It *looks* to be the case here that the train has jack-knifed and then one of the carriages ended up getting wedged in place. No vehicle is going to come out well in that situation, the energy simply has to go somewhere. Had the remaining vehicles collided end-on then something like a Pendolino might have scored slightly with the crumple zones collapsing in a controlled way, but in this case the damage looks to have occurred mainly as a result of the vehicle having been crushed and having no escape route.

As regards a 158, the circumstances would have been completely different had it been a 2-car unit as there would have been less vehicles involved, and in this case most of the damage seems to have arisen from secondary collisions. So the fewer vehicles involved the better. But equally there would have been passengers in the leading vehicle who would have needed protecting from impacts with external objects like trees.

Quite simply every accident scenario will be different, and tiny things can have a big result on the outcome. I seem to remember that the outcome of Southall was heavily influenced by something small falling off one of the trains which then deflected one of the vehicles in a particular direction.

It is *way* more complex than just saying one type of train is safer than another. Ultimately in a collision there's a massive amount of energy to dissipate, and it has to go somewhere.

Having said all that, the structural failure of the HST power car's cab is cause for some thought.