Stop the train i want to get off!

[robbeech]

If it’s discovered that the entire PA system isn’t working the relevant MCBs will be tripped and reinstated to try and rectify the problem.

I’m almost certain the rule book states a train without a working cab to cab or PA can’t begin a journey, it also says to try to lock the coach out of use if the PA is defective in that area. The problem is the guard can’t feasible know if their PA is working correctly. It’s like trying to check your own brake lights without the use of a reflection.

You've never held the brakes on for a bit then put your hand on the bulbs to see if they're warm?

In seriousness, of course it is difficult to check your own pa system but i have caught services that are the first working of the day where it hasn't worked at all in the entire train so unfortunately whilst i appreciate the rules, they aren't being followed everywhere. I do feel it's likely better to risk assess and run the service if it is deemed safe to minimise disruption and delay but they should do what they can to ensure passengers are informed of the situation, especially if changes to stopping pattern are made. Sadly, many guards don't keep passengers informed with a working system. It does bring me back to the generic concept that likely MOST of the problem is poor technique from staff so maybe additional training would go some way to solving this. Likely swinging off topic a little i guess.


It is interesting to see that http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W91030/2017/12/14
The service yesterday did call at those stations and still managed to make up 5 minutes of lost time between Fareham and Hilsea.

 

[robbeech]

I wonder if pax would be entitled to use the passcom in such a situation ?

I wouldn't call it an entitlement. It is surprising that someone didn't do this. I don't feel they would be penalised for doing so in this situation although it could be argued it wouldn't be the best course of action. But without announcements from the guard, and many passengers perhaps not knowing if there even was a guard then people might question the alternatives.

 

[pompeyfan]

You've never held the brakes on for a bit then put your hand on the bulbs to see if they're warm?

In seriousness, of course it is difficult to check your own pa system but i have caught services that are the first working of the day where it hasn't worked at all in the entire train so unfortunately whilst i appreciate the rules, they aren't being followed everywhere. I do feel it's likely better to risk assess and run the service if it is deemed safe to minimise disruption and delay but they should do what they can to ensure passengers are informed of the situation, especially if changes to stopping pattern are made. Sadly, many guards don't keep passengers informed with a working system. It does bring me back to the generic concept that likely MOST of the problem is poor technique from staff so maybe additional training would go some way to solving this. Likely swinging off topic a little i guess.


It is interesting to see that http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W91030/2017/12/14
The service yesterday did call at those stations and still managed to make up 5 minutes of lost time between Fareham and Hilsea.

I don’t think checking the PA is part of the drivers prep, so the first you would know of a fault is when either a guard goes to make an announcement or when someone mentions it wasn’t working.

In regards to that specific service. It’s booked 10 minutes from Cosham to Hilsea, likely to slot into conflicting paths, so if the service is late it doesn’t need to wait at either Cosham Jn or Portcreek.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Does sound very odd. I have to ask did you (and others) have headphones in by any chance? Perhaps the alteration was mentioned in with the usual greeting/security message and so was ignored? Like others have said, no guard would intentionally not inform passengers.

Sorry but I think that is being very naive.
Certainly I have been on services where either the PA is faulty so any message was either not audible at all or it was impossible to make out what was being said. And I have also been on services where guards did not make announcements about changes at all. To say that would never happen is pretty naive! Not saying it happens all the time, or that staff mess passengers around on purpose, but information does sometimes not get passed on to passengers (hell the fact you made a separate comment about drivers maybe seeing passenger information as trivial says a lot).

 

[robbeech]

I don’t think checking the PA is part of the drivers prep, so the first you would know of a fault is when either a guard goes to make an announcement or when someone mentions it wasn’t working.

So how do they ever comply to the rule that a train should not enter service if the PA isn't working?

 

[pompeyfan]

Sorry but I think that is being very naive.
Certainly I have been on services where either the PA is faulty so any message was either not audible at all or it was impossible to make out what was being said. And I have also been on services where guards did not make announcements about changes at all. To say that would never happen is pretty naive! Not saying it happens all the time, or that staff mess passengers around on purpose, but information does sometimes not get passed on to passengers (hell the fact you made a separate comment about drivers maybe seeing passenger information as trivial says a lot).

I’m disappointed you’ve taken my comment out of context, when a driver is on yellows or worse, passenger information is less important out of the two. It is trivial when compared to running on yellows and reds. It is important in the grand scheme of things but at that moment out of the two it comes 2nd.

I know traincrew aren’t perfect and agree that occasionally incorrect/no information is passed out, but in relation to the OP I think there’s possibly more to it than guard failed to make any announcements.

 

[BRblue]

Sorry but I think that is being very naive.
Certainly I have been on services where either the PA is faulty so any message was either not audible at all or it was impossible to make out what was being said. And I have also been on services where guards did not make announcements about changes at all. To say that would never happen is pretty naive! Not saying it happens all the time, or that staff mess passengers around on purpose, but information does sometimes not get passed on to passengers (hell the fact you made a separate comment about drivers maybe seeing passenger information as trivial says a lot).

I'm sure any driver that has a cat A spad due to being distracted giving out passenger service information, would not see that as trivial!

 

[Bromley boy]

So how do they ever comply to the rule that a train should not enter service if the PA isn't working?

Where I am, the PA is checked on a full prep “from berth” (open the cab-saloon door, activate the PA and blow into it). Of course this only confirms it works in the leading coach and tells you nothing about the rest of the train.

If you relieve another driver or take a train over during service you wouldn’t check the PA at all.

If you were told the PA wasn’t working, or happened to notice the button wouldn’t illuminate when you tried to make an announcement, you’d reset the MCB, reboot the unit and take the train out of service if it wouldn’t reinstate.

 

[Bromley boy]

I do feel it's likely better to risk assess and run the service if it is deemed safe to minimise disruption and delay but they should do what they can to ensure passengers are informed of the situation, especially if changes to stopping pattern are made.

Nope. No ifs, no buts, if the PA system isn’t working the train is failed and taken out of service at the earliest opportunity (immediately if you’re at a terminal station). There’s no room for discretion or for a driver or guard to perform a “risk assessment” - indeed if I was asked to drive a train in service with a defective PA I would refuse.

Of course it’s inconvenient and nobody wants to fail a train, but the correct remedy is to make sure the stock is well maintained rather than cutting corners to keep it in service when failures occur.

 

[Ianmel1969]

Does sound very odd. I have to ask did you (and others) have headphones in by any chance? Perhaps the alteration was mentioned in with the usual greeting/security message and so was ignored? Like others have said, no guard would intentionally not inform passengers.

The quality of the PA is poor but where no unit would normally spend more than a couple of days together it’s tricky to track down the issue.

In response to the comment about short platforms. The automated system announces passengers to move forward, the guard should be making principal announcements and you’ve also got Station CIS screens and audio...

No, we didn't have headphones in.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Nope. No ifs, no buts, if the PA system isn’t working the train is failed and taken out of service at the earliest opportunity (immediately if you’re at a terminal station)

Obviously that is not the case everywhere!

 

[Harbouring]

Obviously that is not the case everywhere!

Southern 313’s would never run if it was.

 

[SWT_USER]

Nope. No ifs, no buts, if the PA system isn’t working the train is failed and taken out of service at the earliest opportunity (immediately if you’re at a terminal station). There’s no room for discretion or for a driver or guard to perform a “risk assessment” - indeed if I was asked to drive a train in service with a defective PA I would refuse.

Of course it’s inconvenient and nobody wants to fail a train, but the correct remedy is to make sure the stock is well maintained rather than cutting corners to keep it in service when failures occur.

Thanks for that - useful info. I will never report a defective PA to a guard/ staff in that case, at least until I've got to my station.

 

[robbeech]

Nope. No ifs, no buts, if the PA system isn’t working the train is failed and taken out of service at the earliest opportunity (immediately if you’re at a terminal station). There’s no room for discretion or for a driver or guard to perform a “risk assessment” - indeed if I was asked to drive a train in service with a defective PA I would refuse.

Of course it’s inconvenient and nobody wants to fail a train, but the correct remedy is to make sure the stock is well maintained rather than cutting corners to keep it in service when failures occur.

And this protocol is more than acceptable in my opinion. However, it is clear that this isn't the case with all TOCs, or if it is, it isn't being followed as we have ALL been on trains with defective PA systems. I have certainly been on trains that have had defective alsorts of things on the first run of the day. I think i managed a defective lighting in one carriage of 2, defective toilet (only 1) defective pa in 1 carriage only, and a set of doors out of use on a Northern service a couple of years back, and that was a first service of the day! Maybe their rules are different of course.

 

[tsr]

There is no prohibition in the Rule Book on a train with defective PA equipment continuing in service if a guard is working the train. The applicable part of the RSSB Rule Book is Module TW5, Section 18. https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GERT8000-TW5 Iss 8.pdf

On a DO train, passengers must not be allowed to travel in vehicles on which the public address is not working.

(That being said, on occasions when the PA has failed and passenger information cannot be relayed due to the guard having to work from fixed positions in the train, they have been known to refuse to work trains where the PA does not allow them to broadcast information. This is sensible, in my opinion, but opinions vary...)

 

[Matt Taylor]

It is quite possible that the guard made a PA announcement in good faith but failed to press the 'PA' button on the control panel prior to doing so resulting in no announcement being made except except to those within vocal range of the guard. Sometimes this happens, we are human after all.

 

[Bromley boy]

And this protocol is more than acceptable in my opinion. However, it is clear that this isn't the case with all TOCs, or if it is, it isn't being followed as we have ALL been on trains with defective PA systems. I have certainly been on trains that have had defective alsorts of things on the first run of the day. I think i managed a defective lighting in one carriage of 2, defective toilet (only 1) defective pa in 1 carriage only, and a set of doors out of use on a Northern service a couple of years back, and that was a first service of the day! Maybe their rules are different of course.

Yes that would seem to be the case.

Northern are max 4 cars(?) and have guards. We run with up to 12 cars and are DOO. That would be an obvious reason for the difference in approach.

EDIT: and I see TSR has kindly provided the relevant rulebook reference above.

 

[pemma]

Northern are max 4 cars(?) and have guards. We run with up to 12 cars and are DOO. That would be an obvious reason for the difference in approach.

Northern do have some booked 5 car workings and run doubled up 323s (6 x 23m) on match days.

 

[robbeech]

Certainly a difference in train type and length there so understandable as you say. That said, a lot of the 4 car stock is a pair of 14x so no way for a guard to get to all carriages between stations so manual announcements not possible here, and no way for passengers to contact them to let them know if anything isn't working. Of course the same can happen with certain 12 car units.

 

[Bromley boy]

Thanks for that - useful info. I will never report a defective PA to a guard/ staff in that case, at least until I've got to my station.

Yep waiting until you get to your destination before failing the train is always a good approach .

 

[pompeyfan]

Have you not seen the new rule book module;

How to ignore defects on your going home train

 

[infobleep]

If it’s discovered that the entire PA system isn’t working the relevant MCBs will be tripped and reinstated to try and rectify the problem.

I’m almost certain the rule book states a train without a working cab to cab or PA can’t begin a journey, it also says to try to lock the coach out of use if the PA is defective in that area. The problem is the guard can’t feasible know if their PA is working correctly. It’s like trying to check your own brake lights without the use of a reflection.




I appreciate what you’re saying, but the Railway must be having a pretty bad day if all 3 safeguards against that fail. If the guard isn’t making principal announcements I very much doubt they’ll bother to mention individual short platforms. Maybe that’s a management/training need issue.

You also mention the fact that sometimes the automated system contradicts the manual information. This is true. The usual method around that would be to put the ‘SWR’ code in. You can only do that from the front guards office or from the leading cab. If the driver is following restrictive aspects they’re not going to appreciate being buzzed up for something which they may see as trivial.

The intention during the refurb is to get rid of the guards office which means only the driver will be able to put in codes, again, anything but greens and they’re not going to answer. That said, the plan for the refurb does include PIS that can be updated remotely, whether or not that includes in areas of poor mobile reception remains to be seen. Diesels and 455/456 and other stock are different too.

Could they not add the functionality to the door areas or are far too many buttons required?

 

[robertclark125]

Could it have been this happened; the PA was working when the guard an/or driver tested it, but then failed later on between the check and the PA announcement not going out?

 

[otomous]

There is no prohibition in the Rule Book on a train with defective PA equipment continuing in service if a guard is working the train. The applicable part of the RSSB Rule Book is Module TW5, Section 18. https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GERT8000-TW5 Iss 8.pdf




(That being said, on occasions when the PA has failed and passenger information cannot be relayed due to the guard having to work from fixed positions in the train, they have been known to refuse to work trains where the PA does not allow them to broadcast information. This is sensible, in my opinion, but opinions vary...)

And interestingly, given recent trends on the railway, I’ve had more trains failed due to no PA than cancelled due to no guard.

 

[philthetube]

A guard would never knowingly not make a PA om these circumstances, purely because of the grief they are going to get from passengers.

 

[ComUtoR]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the new 3.6 update or the GSMR PA test function yet....

 

[Sprinter153]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the new 3.6 update or the GSMR PA test function yet....

On most of our Class 180 and West units the PA isn't connected to the GSM-R properly so the test won't work!

 

[Daz28]

I’ve travelled on many, many Southeeastern DOO services where the onboard PIS is switched off, there are no automatic announcements and no manual announcements either. As a passenger, I can’t tell if the equipment is defective or just not being used. Seems to affect evening services more, so perhaps this equipment can’t last a whole day?

I have a couple of experiences of being in the front carriage and hearing through the door that the driver is attempting to make an announcement but nothing can be heard over the PA.

Lots of examples of auto announcements being loud and clear but manual announcements being incoherent. Clearly a problem with the quality or positioning of the microphone or operator error.

I was on a service this week where we stopped at a red signal at St Johns but we’re not booked to call. The driver made a manual announcement and pleaded with passengers not to attempt to disembark. Five minute wait to clear and thankfully nobody hit the emergency exit handle.

 

[Bromley boy]

I’ve travelled on many, many Southeeastern DOO services where the onboard PIS is switched off, there are no automatic announcements and no manual announcements either. As a passenger, I can’t tell if the equipment is defective or just not being used. Seems to affect evening services more, so perhaps this equipment can’t last a whole day?

I’d say the equipment works 90% of the time. Unfortunately there are often issues with the PIS, most frequently codes not being printed correctly on diagrams. In particular there were a lot of issues with the recent leaf fall diagrams where the code given would announce an incorrect stopping pattern.

If there’s one thing worse than running with no PIS, it’s running with a PIS telling passengers the wrong stopping pattern, so it’s often better simply not to input a code suspected to be wrong.

Manual announcements should be made where safe and appropriate but the reality of DOO operation is that passing information on to passengers inevitably takes a back seat to the task of actually driving the train.

I have a couple of experiences of being in the front carriage and hearing through the door that the driver is attempting to make an announcement but nothing can be heard over the PA.

That points to defective equipment in the first coach. As explained above this would not be checked as a matter of course unless the train is being prepped “from berth” - ie before its first journey of the day.

Lots of examples of auto announcements being loud and clear but manual announcements being incoherent. Clearly a problem with the quality or positioning of the microphone or operator error.

Usually in networkers, I’m guessing?

Anyone who can speak on the telephone can make a PA announcement. The microphone is the same shape and size as an old fashioned telephone handset and is operated by a “push to talk button” after the PA function is selected on the keypad.

Unfortunately the networker PA equipment seems quite prone to acoustic feedback/distortion. This can vary from coach to coach with some as clear as a bell and some virtually inaudible. I realise this is far from ideal.

I was on a service this week where we stopped at a red signal at St Johns but we’re not booked to call. The driver made a manual announcement and pleaded with passengers not to attempt to disembark. Five minute wait to clear and thankfully nobody hit the emergency exit handle.

This situation, and the PTI risk created by people on the platform trying to board, is why many drivers simply don’t enter a platform with a red signal at the end, if they are not booked to call at the station.

 

[Daz28]

I was following a Twitter conversation with Southeastern. The complaint was that http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W07110/2017/12/16/advanced this train stopped at Lee for half an hour at 1am with doors locked and no announcement was made. The explanation was that the driver had left the cab and was busy trying to fix a problem with the doors in a rear carriage and was therefore unable to make announcements.