Stopping short at Newport on an advance to Cardiff Central.

[northwichcat]

Actually there is - the airline industry.

I actually saw this happen once - someone wanted to get off a plane a stop early and was told they'd have to either stay on to the destination on their ticket or buy a new one.

More commonly of course it's cancelling itineraries if someone no-shows for any part of it (e..g not letting people use the return half of a ticket if they aren't on the outward flight).

There are also some airlines that offer single fares that are more than return fares and, as a condition of carriage, state that you're required to make the return journey.

If someone does ask to buy a ticket from a barriered station and can't show how they got in legitimately then I do enforce the NRCoT and only sell an Anytime Single.

I understand you're allowed to do that for anyone who doesn't have a good excuse for not buying before boarding. Even if there was a fire alarm and the ticket barriers were left open for a short while after the station reopens, it doesn't automatically excuse someone for not using the ticket buying facilities.

 

[RJ]

But he wants to do less! In no other industry would a customer be penalised for wanting less than they paid for.

There are ticket types that permit stopping short - there's specific provision in the Conditions of Travel and these tickets are readily available.

The T&Cs of Advance purchase tickets are advertised at time of purchase - the time to contest the terms is before buying one, then a different ticket type which offers the required flexibility could be purchased instead.

The airline industry doesn't like stopping short and it's only in limited circumstances you can really get away with it. Also if you attempt to start short then you'll find the ticket has been cancelled in its entirety, at least with all the airlines I've encountered!

 

[Deafdoggie]

I meant transport industry as a whole.
The transport industry is renowned for its poor customer service & I don't think railways should be in a race to the bottom with airlines.

 

[AdamWW]

There are ticket types that permit stopping short - there's specific provision in the Conditions of Travel and these tickets are readily available.

The T&Cs of Advance purchase tickets are advertised at time of purchase - the time to contest the terms is before buying one, then a different ticket type which offers the required flexibility could be purchased instead.

Fortunately for passengers, as described above the industry takes a less hostile approach than that.

In my view if someone has had an unexpected change of plans outside their control it's not very helpful to tell them that they should have planned for it and bought a flexible ticket in the first place. Especially when the industry has priced flexible tickets out of of many people's reach for some journeys.

At least, if I understand correctly, the penalty for stopping short on a ticket where this isn't permitted is just to buy a new ticket which does permit the journey, not prosecution for criminally misusing tickets (at least assuming the passenger has the means to purchase a new ticket on the spot).

 

[JonathanH]

Fortunately for passengers, as described above the industry takes a less hostile approach than that.

Not always true. There are examples of situations where penalty fares have been charged to passengers using advance fares between stations other than those shown on the ticket, although this particular instance was of someone trying to pay a lower fare where advances weren't available for their actual journey.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/penalty-fare-notice-burley-park-to-harrogate-return.251420/

 

[RJ]

Fortunately for passengers, as described above the industry takes a less hostile approach than that.

If the terms are seen as hostile then surely it's the wrong type of ticket to buy?

 

[AdamWW]

Not always true. There are examples of situations where penalty fares have been charged to passengers using advance fares between stations other than those shown on the ticket, although this particular instance was of someone trying to pay a lower fare where advances weren't available for their actual journey.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/penalty-fare-notice-burley-park-to-harrogate-return.251420/

Yes of course there are examples and I'm sure it happens even when it's clear that someone hasn't done it to save money.

But my point is that the knowledgebase article suggests that the industry does act with some flexibility rather than always taking the hard line they would be legally entitled to.

 

[Gaelan]

But my point is that the knowledgebase article suggests that the industry does act with some flexibility rather than always taking the hard line they would be legally entitled to.

Which is good! But would be much better to have something actually contractual, instead of an (open-)secret policy; the nature of stopping short on an advance is that, by the time you're sure you'll be allowed to do it (at the gateline), you're already committed. The policy as it stands only benefits people who don't know the rules, or are willing to risk the price of an advance single (and a penalty fare).

If the terms are seen as hostile then surely it's the wrong type of ticket to buy?

Ideally the railway wouldn't be gratuitously hostile to people who can't afford the eye-watering prices of walk-up tickets.

 

[Deafdoggie]

If the terms are seen as hostile then surely it's the wrong type of ticket to buy?

Indeed. The railway does like to put off as many people as it can

 

[JonathanH]

Ideally the railway wouldn't be gratuitously hostile to people who can't afford the eye-watering prices of walk-up tickets.

However, if there is some uncertainty about whether a passenger wants to go to one of two stations, there is nothing stopping them buying an advance ticket to the nearer station, and a 'walk up' ticket between the nearer station and the further one. There isn't a requirement to use a walk up ticket the whole way.

 

[northwichcat]

The transport industry is renowned for its poor customer service & I don't think railways should be in a race to the bottom with airlines.

Hotel booking sites as well. Booking.com's customer support team just seem to forward any message on to a hotel, even when the issue relates to their website or them permitting the hotel to do something. For example, approving claims made by London hotels that already confirmed stays for New Year's Eve had been sold at rates which contained 'obvious errors' just after the NYE firework tickets go on sale and demand increases, even when the booking had been confirmed months ago.

Tbh if you book with Ryanair you know the low price doesn't include reasonable customer service. However, you could argue Avanti's Off Peak fares, with all their restrictions, aren't actually that cheap so you should get better customer service for the price paid.

 

[RJ]

Which is good! But would be much better to have something actually contractual, instead of an (open-)secret policy; the nature of stopping short on an advance is that, by the time you're sure you'll be allowed to do it (at the gateline), you're already committed. The policy as it stands only benefits people who don't know the rules, or are willing to risk the price of an advance single (and a penalty fare).

Ideally the railway wouldn't be gratuitously hostile to people who can't afford the eye-watering prices of walk-up tickets.

Many people use Advance tickets in accordance with the terms without an issue and won't buy them if the terms don't work.

Some people's method of saving money is routinely demanding entitlement to discretion that overrides the terms - and I suppose in their eyes any kind of restriction would be deemed as hostile. I think caution should be excised projecting this onto other people though, especially in this day and age where improper use of tickets can be more easily detected and result in problems for the passenger.

 

[Krokodil]

Not always true. There are examples of situations where penalty fares have been charged to passengers using advance fares between stations other than those shown on the ticket, although this particular instance was of someone trying to pay a lower fare where advances weren't available for their actual journey.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/penalty-fare-notice-burley-park-to-harrogate-return.251420/

The official advice posted upthread is only for the benefit of passengers who are not seeking to gain financially by stopping short.

 

[AdamWW]

However, if there is some uncertainty about whether a passenger wants to go to one of two stations, there is nothing stopping them buying an advance ticket to the nearer station, and a 'walk up' ticket between the nearer station and the further one. There isn't a requirement to use a walk up ticket the whole way.

No there isn't though of course not everyone will be aware of that.

But going back to the start of this thread, the question wasn't from someone who wasn't sure where they wanted to go and wanted to know if they could use an advance in such circumstances.

It from someone whose plans had changed.

Now we don't know why that was and whether it was predictable or not, but it does happen that people make fixed plans and circumstances then change in a way that is out of their control and couldn't have been expected.

Which is good! But would be much better to have something actually contractual, instead of an (open-)secret policy; the nature of stopping short on an advance is that, by the time you're sure you'll be allowed to do it (at the gateline), you're already committed. The policy as it stands only benefits people who don't know the rules, or are willing to risk the price of an advance single (and a penalty fare).

Yes it would be nice to have it on a formal footing so that those knowledgeable about the rules could confidently take advantage of it. But it's still better in my view that it should reduce the liklihood of someone getting into trouble who isn't trying to cheat the system and has just made an incorrect but understandable assumption about what they can do.

Though I don't think a penalty fare in the formal sense is applicable to stopping short on a journey.

 

[RJ]

Yes it would be nice to have it on a formal footing so that those knowledgeable about the rules could confidently take advantage of it. But it's still better in my view that it should reduce the liklihood of someone getting into trouble who isn't trying to cheat the system and has just made an incorrect but understandable assumption about what they can do.

It doesn't help on the day if that discretion isn't shown.

This is why plans should be made around the advertised T&Cs.

 

[AdamWW]

It doesn't help on the day if that discretion isn't shown.

No it doesn't. But where it is shown, it has the potential to help someone who has made an innocent "mistake" and as a result of the policy isn't penalised. That's better than nothing.

This is why plans should be made around the advertised T&Cs.

Not a bad idea.

But not very helpful if there is an unexpected change of plans after ticket purchase.

 

[Deafdoggie]

This is why plans should be made around the advertised T&Cs.

In which case tickets should only be purchased at the last possible moment. Which would price most people off rail travel and decimate the leisure market. Not the smartest move for the railways.

 

[Western Sunset]

TOCs often turn around trains early and passengers get turfed out before their destination. Doesn't seem to apply the other way around...

 

[Haywain]

In which case tickets should only be purchased at the last possible moment. Which would price most people off rail travel and decimate the leisure market. Not the smartest move for the railways.

I'm travelling next week with Advance tickets bought around 4 weeks ago. I have no problem in travelling in accordance with the T&Cs. Why would I need to leave it to the last minute?

 

[RJ]

In which case tickets should only be purchased at the last possible moment. Which would price most people off rail travel and decimate the leisure market. Not the smartest move for the railways.

People see the world differently. You are describing the perspective of a person for whom a flexible ticket is the most appropriate product.

Others accept that discounted tickets come with restrictions and plan around them. For the most part it works.

 

[zero]

On the other hand, in countries such as Germany and Switzerland you can use the equivalent of "advance" tickets for any portion of the journey you like

 

[Dave91131]

Sub total of this thread seems pretty clear to me - don't bother using the railway.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I'm travelling next week with Advance tickets bought around 4 weeks ago. I have no problem in travelling in accordance with the T&Cs. Why would I need to leave it to the last minute?

People see the world differently. You are describing the perspective of a person for whom a flexible ticket is the most appropriate product.

Others accept that discounted tickets come with restrictions and plan around them. For the most part it works.

I was responding to the person who said if you can't guarantee plans won't change don't get an advance.
I can not, not can anyone else, predict that someone won't get knocked over by a bus and my plans will change.
On their assumption & rationale therefore an advance ticket is never suitable as the future can't be predicted.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I was responding to the person who said if you can't guarantee plans won't change don't get an advance.
I can not, not can anyone else, predict that someone won't get knocked over by a bus and my plans will change.
On their assumption & rationale therefore an advance ticket is never suitable as the future can't be predicted.

In fairness, we don't live in a world of absolutes. My expectation would be that I would buy an advance ticket if I had a strong reasonable expectation that my plans would not change.

And this is what I do. Normally it works - as in I can think of one occasion when it didn't, and when it didn't (I hadn't left enough time to get to Lime Street) I bought a new ticket for a different train. Did I buy it happily? No, I didn't. Has it put me off buying advance tickets? No, but it does mean that I leave longer to get the bus into town.

 

[fandroid]

Presumably it is also possible to buy travel insurance that will cover the costs associated with changed plans. (Just make sure you read the small print though!)

 

[laseandre]

Actually there is - the airline industry.

I actually saw this happen once - someone wanted to get off a plane a stop early and was told they'd have to either stay on to the destination on their ticket or buy a new one.

More commonly of course it's cancelling itineraries if someone no-shows for any part of it (e..g not letting people use the return half of a ticket if they aren't on the outward flight).

The two situations don't quite map onto each other. There is a lot more work involved in a passenger leaving a multi-stop flight early - they could need their hold bag offloaded, there may now be a meal/meals going uneaten that have already been paid for by the airline, and the logistical hassle of recalculating weight/balance by the pilots. A passenger leaving a train gives the railway company an opportunity to carry an extra passenger.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Really, the TOC should have made the Advance fare to Newport the same as the Advance to Cardiff. If the station staff at Newport knew a modicum of the history of the fares sold at the time, they'd accept that getting out at Newport would be fine, given that the OP wouldn't have paid any more or less in the first place.

 

[JonathanH]

Really, the TOC should have made the Advance fare to Newport the same as the Advance to Cardiff.

That doesn't follow. It isn't the fares that are an issue here. They are priced consistently.

If the station staff at Newport knew a modicum of the history of the fares sold at the time, they'd accept that getting out at Newport would be fine, given that the OP wouldn't have paid any more or less in the first place.

They may well do so, indeed the barriers may allow exit. However, no one could answer whether that is the case or not so to play safe the original poster said they would buy an extra ticket.

Even if there was a local practice of allowing passengers to exit at Newport, it only takes a more strongly enforced block to override local practice.

 

[bkhtele]

The internal knowledge base has the following written:



Whether in principal this would be the case is questionable.

Think this is the best approach, unlikely to have a problem, complain if necessary to resolve. Press would enjoy supporting any complaint. If pushed you could offer to buy the single Cardiff to Newport for an easy life!