Storm Darragh - 6/7th Dec

[ChiefPlanner]

Quite. Considering the scale of the devastation, the clearing crews are doing really well, especially when you consider than in some places they will need to clear their way tot the access point first. Plus there's not that many daylight hours at this time of year and using a chainsaw safely needs enough light to see what you're doing- especially when you are dealing with fallen trees which may need some climbing and delimbing before cutting up for removal. And you know, they need to sleep and eat as well.

Very well said , and thank you for doing so. How many "armchair and keyboard critics" would have relished being out on Saturday / Sunday night for example removing the tree on the MML fast lines south of St Albans . "Someone" did it and allowed services to run. Much appreciation. This was going on all over the place.

 

[crosscity]

Here is Aventra EMU 730006 at Kings Norton. When I took the photo earlier today (Mon) it had been here for 48 hours. It's now into its third night here. Three lots of Aventras are still trapped at Northfield, Longbridge and Bromsgrove as well.

The Camp Hill line was unusable from Saturday afternoon until this morning, too.


Mon 9 Dec 2024 at 11:56. 'Storm Darragh'. Stranded Aventra EMU 730006 by 'MrDeltic'

The EMU arrived here at Kings Norton, Birmingham with Saturday's [2P27] the 11:29 Bromsgrove-Lichfield Crosscity service. The wires came down in front of it, so it has been stranded for 48 hours.

 

[Krokodil]

I read with great interest these debates , and thinking of the Great Storm back in the 1980's when commandeered DMU sets (and even a diesel Parcels unit) , with local PW gangs and every person they could set rustle up - set off with tools and the new fangled chain saws (sometimes acquired by using local knowledge and calling up shopowners etc , to open up their business at stupid o'clock to supply equipment) and set off with hope to clear lines as metropolitan as the Watford DC , and the North London line. Sometimes using their "traction" to drag the bigger tree sections clear of the running lines.

That spirit of "can do" and get trains running is still around today , and is impressive.

One issue though is that "Off track" (the current term for the people who deal with vegetation) have been cut back to the bone. If there were enough teams to man four trains (one working east from Holyhead, one west from Chester, and one in each direction from Llandudno Junction, and yes there were units in the right places for all of these, plus Blaenau) then the line might have been able to open by late Sunday afternoon. Instead it was just one team on one unit.

It's not an issue unique to lineside, there have been occasions where S&T were required to rectify a fault but all teams stretching for some distance were already busy.

Before anyone suggests that it may be overprovision to have numerous teams available just in case of a storm, there is plenty of preventative work they could be getting on with. Speaking to one of them though, the red tape alone makes it very difficult to cut back trees before they get blown over.

Here is Aventra EMU 730006 at Kings Norton. When I took the photo earlier today (Mon) it had been here for 48 hours. It's now into its third night here. Three lots of Aventra's are still trapped at Northfield, Longbridge and Bromsgrove as well.

I presume that the addition to the livery is a new one. I'm surprised that more damage hasn't been done.

 

[Class 317]

I'd like to thank the many staff on GWR that helped me and my partner get home on Saturday in very difficult circumstances personally and very difficult conditions for the railway.

My partner has autism and struggles with both sudden changes, crowded spaces and loud noises. We had to travel back to see a sick relative

The staff were great all day arranging for us to wait in a quiet office, putting us into first class which was quieter and keeping us very up to date with everything that was going on which really helped my partner.

I couldn't fault any of the staff we interacted with. Yes we were very late but we made it in time in the end.

I have sent our thanks via the official route but wanted to add some positive experience to this thread.

 

[Bald Rick]

As usual there is lots of beef in this thread between the ‘can dos’ and the ‘can not dos’.

Before bashing people who say ‘its a disgrace‘ and ‘lines should be open’, we are not saying to do away with proving trains, we are not saying that trains should be running at line speed in 80 mph winds. Take an example. Since Wednesday we knew that Saturday was going to be beyond awful. But 4 days should be enough time to resource 3 or 4 proving trains to start 8am Sunday and clear the various mainlines. Yes it may take all morning, and trains may have to run at 40/50mph for the rest of the day in case of more issues. Eg, Cardiff East&West, Shrewsbury South&North, Chester West & Holyhead East. How hard can it be.

The reason the railway is stuck at the moment is we have lost people high up taking the initiative and putting the service/passengers first. Transportation is not an optional service. Yes most of us can adjust travel plans for the storm, but we still have to travel. You can just say ‘no’ for the worst of it, but then at least make an effort to get going again once it has died down!

As a final note, I am not bashing the teams dealing with the clear up, and indeed am extremely grateful for their efforts. I am saying that it is a failure of management to not mobilise these teams quicker, more of them, and get the job done more efficiently, with some element of public communication.

I think the answer to this can only be for you to go and get a job in a railway control office, and then you can show how it is done.

Meanwhile I would like to thank everyone involved in getting things back up and running, the maintenance crews and MOMs out on the ground, the signallers, station staff and train crew who struggled to get into work and had to do their jobs in some horrendous conditions, the depot engineers who have been fixing trains that have rather too much water in them (or wood on them), the controllers who managed the service and prioritised the workload, the managers who co-ordinated the plans (and in some cases, were up all night, unpaid, on top of doing their day jobs) and everyone else, etc etc.

 

[MalaiseForever]

I think the answer to this can only be for you to go and get a job in a railway control office, and then you can show how it is done.

Meanwhile I would like to thank everyone involved in getting things back up and running, the maintenance crews and MOMs out on the ground, the signallers, station staff and train crew who struggled to get into work and had to do their jobs in some horrendpus conditions, the depot engineers who have been fixing trains that have rather too much water in them (or wood on them), the controllers who managed the service and prioritised the workload, the managers who co-ordinated the plans (and in some cases, were up all night, unpaid, on top of doing their day jobs) and everyone else, etc etc.

Very well said.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Very well said.

Naturally seconded - being more than aware of the massive difficuties that have been seen , in the last few days. Huge appreciation of the very strong efforts made. (and frankly annoyed as one can tell by the "why was not xxx done - I need to know")

 

[43066]

I think the answer to this can only be for you to go and get a job in a railway control office, and then you can show how it is done.

Meanwhile I would like to thank everyone involved in getting things back up and running, the maintenance crews and MOMs out on the ground, the signallers, station staff and train crew who struggled to get into work and had to do their jobs in some horrendpus conditions, the depot engineers who have been fixing trains that have rather too much water in them (or wood on them), the controllers who managed the service and prioritised the workload, the managers who co-ordinated the plans (and in some cases, were up all night, unpaid, on top of doing their day jobs) and everyone else, etc etc.

Great post.

I'd like to thank the many staff on GWR that helped me and my partner get home on Saturday in very difficult circumstances personally and very difficult conditions for the railway.

My partner has autism and struggles with both sudden changes, crowded spaces and loud noises. We had to travel back to see a sick relative

The staff were great all day arranging for us to wait in a quiet office, putting us into first class which was quieter and keeping us very up to date with everything that was going on which really helped my partner.

I couldn't fault any of the staff we interacted with. Yes we were very late but we made it in time in the end.

I have sent our thanks via the official route but wanted to add some positive experience to this thread.

Also great to hear. It is well worth feeding these positive experiences back, as you have done, because it does (eventually) filter down to the crew/staff members concerned.

 

[Parham Wood]

Still, they will have more crew available tomorrow who didn't work today, today being a Sunday. I don't object to people who don't wish to work on Sundays and/or do overtime.


It makes sense. Now had the weather Wales experienced yesterday occurred say in Surrey, Sussex and Kent ,to the same extreme, would they also have waited until today, to clear the trees? Or is it simply the case due to the longer distances and rural nature of some of Wales, it takes long to go down each line compared to the south east? I'm not saying they weren't doing stuff in Wales yesterday. Just that some of it was done today.

I imagine a lot has to do with the number of staff/contractors available for line clearance. In the old days when you had a PW maintenance gang for every few miles of track you had a lot more bodies available to do work in parallel and of course they would be local staff, within walking/cycling distance so not so hampered by road closures. EDIT and of course line sides were relatively devoid of trees unlike these days.

 

[yoyothehobo]

There are various types, monitored in different ways, but I think that the "little mushrooms" are (a bit like real mushrooms) just the visible surface manifestations of larger subterranean entities - in this case probably tubes extending down into the bank. If the bank slips, the tube develops a tilt and triggers warnings.

Another type is simply surface mounted targets whose positions are monitored by a scanner, but I think they look rather different.


Possibly a new portal (or two) erected alongside the failed one, on piled foundations.

These tiltmeters are just on metal pegs about 1m along hammered into the ground. The array can show movement across the slope at surface level and will transfer info back to control.

Inclinometers are generally installed to greater depth and are mostly manually read on a monthly basis or so looking at developing ground conditions and also to potentially design remediations.

 

[DelW]

These tiltmeters are just on metal pegs about 1m along hammered into the ground. The array can show movement across the slope at surface level and will transfer info back to control.

Inclinometers are generally installed to greater depth and are mostly manually read on a monthly basis or so looking at developing ground conditions and also to potentially design remediations.

Thanks for the clarification and explanation.

I can remember manually dipping inclinometers decades ago (not on railways) and thought the process might have been automated by now, but maybe manual monitoring is still more cost effective.

 

[IslandLine101]

Interesting to see all the responses. For those concerned, yes situations like these do go and compel me to find a job on the railways. Believe it or not even those of us who question why more immediate responses aren’t possible also care about the industry, and the staff within it. Otherwise, frankly, what are we even doing on the forums? I want more people travelling by train at the end of the day, and one of the ways that happens is by managing these sort of events better. And yes we can’t change anything by posting on here. But we all know that don’t we?

Or maybe the people in charge, with their limited resources and who would be the ones gripping the brass rod in the court room should anything go wrong because of their decisions are being cautious and the memory of Carmont is still fresh in peoples minds. Running the entire service at well below line speed and for half a day is a recipe for timetabling disaster and has a strong chance to heavily disrupt timetables into the rest of the week due to drivers and units being out of position and the staff hours also being all over the place.

The phrase "How Hard Can it Be" is generally used by people who have absolutely no idea on what is actually needed but just like to have a little whine.

The ‘how hard can it be’ phrase should always be taken with a pinch of salt, as indeed it was meant here. Clearing the North Wales coast seems to me to be the best example of this. Proving train running east has taken till Monday 1600 to clear, entirely fair enough (and likely working their socks off to even achieve that). Follow up Qns: why couldn’t a second train from from Chester heading west (Viaduct may well be the answer). And in any case why couldn’t progress be communicated, and the moment that lines are clear even in smaller than ideal chunks. The aim is always to get people moving safely, unless I am mistaken about the fundamental aim of the railways!

From where? To where?


The lines west of Chester General (to both the coast line and down to Shrewsbury) were put on full stop on Saturday afternoon due to multiple large trees causing a blockage and fallen masonry from a viaduct.

The latter in particular requires further technical safety inspection to enable lines to re-open to service.

There may also have been damage to the signalling system and permanent way, but the trees have to be removed first to enable further inspection.


Will you be apologising?


Even if resourced and planned in advance, it could not have been run until completion of the aforementioned safety inspections.

This is entirely fair enough, and you are correct that in this situation it wouldn‘t have helped. I resort to point B though - why isn’t the travelling public being told about issues like this? They could put something out on Saturday saying that due to potential structural damage to a viaduct, trains to the west of Chester will be cancelled Sunday, and Monday is looking unlikely. any objections to that?

You didn't notice the severe conditions then? I live in the red warning area and it was truly scary as the storm when through, as well as the main wind, sudden much stronger gusts which roared and sounded like thunder.

You might consider that it's a bit difficult to run trains if all of the grid power in the area is down and the roads to signalboxes, maintenance locations and train depots are blocked with falling/fallen trees. The staff have to get to work before you can think about clearing the railway.

On Saturday, the M4 was closed in 4 places. Never known that before. As of this afternoon (travel news on Radio Wales), there's still roads blocked in some areas of west Wales and still power off in some locations.






Quite. Considering the scale of the devastation, the clearing crews are doing really well, especially when you consider than in some places they will need to clear their way tot the access point first. Plus there's not that many daylight hours at this time of year and using a chainsaw safely needs enough light to see what you're doing- especially when you are dealing with fallen trees which may need some climbing and delimbing before cutting up for removal. And you know, they need to sleep and eat as well.



Very much so.

I am going to be grumpy and suggest that the armchair critics realise that out there in the real world we've had an incredibly severe storm, it's not just the railway but roads and also the power distribution companies that have been putting in the hours to clear the debris away. There's places which still haven't got electricity back.

I know it's disappointing if a trip is cancelled. But be glad you didn't lose your roof off your house, or have a tree fall on your car, or have the contents of your freezer defrost due to no power.

TPO

For completeness to respond to everyone who has asked a response of me, it turns out you are 100% correct. I just wish TfW could have told me that on Saturday evening, in an easy-to-find place online, with a photo or two as evidence to shut my inevitable rebuttal up!

 

[Horizon22]

I think the answer to this can only be for you to go and get a job in a railway control office, and then you can show how it is done.

Often people within the railway often are amazed by the sheer (and often) sudden uptick in workload and ongoing tasks required within control environments and the prioritisation needed.

That being said, in my opinion, people on the front lines (MOMs, S&T and station staff) have to deal with the actual weather conditions and get things sorted. Really what everyone wants (staff and passengers alike) is better communication, which is easier said than done.

 

[yoyothehobo]

Thanks for the clarification and explanation.

I can remember manually dipping inclinometers decades ago (not on railways) and thought the process might have been automated by now, but maybe manual monitoring is still more cost effective.

The cost of installing inclinometers and then automating them is really quite high and though the automated tech isnt new, the costs remain high.

The cost of ground investigations has increased markedly and also the difficulty in undertaking them.

Automated inclinometers are in use at some sites though, where the data frequency is required to be daily.

 

[infobleep]

I imagine a lot has to do with the number of staff/contractors available for line clearance. In the old days when you had a PW maintenance gang for every few miles of track you had a lot more bodies available to do work in parallel and of course they would be local staff, within walking/cycling distance so not so hampered by road closures. EDIT and of course line sides were relatively devoid of trees unlike these days.

That all makes sense. Would there be the same number of staff per mile of railway line in Waled as there would be in say the south east? I am aware conditions were worse in Wales.

 

[Harpo]

Would there be the same number of staff per mile of railway line in Wales as there would be in say the south east?

No. Infrastructure staffing is driven by asset inspection and maintenance volumes not just track mileage.

Rural railways can have very few bits of kit over large distances with low wear and tear from their line speeds, traffic type and level.

 

[Falcon1200]

I think the answer to this can only be for you to go and get a job in a railway control office, and then you can show how it is done.

Meanwhile I would like to thank everyone involved in getting things back up and running, the maintenance crews and MOMs out on the ground, the signallers, station staff and train crew who struggled to get into work and had to do their jobs in some horrendous conditions, the depot engineers who have been fixing trains that have rather too much water in them (or wood on them), the controllers who managed the service and prioritised the workload, the managers who co-ordinated the plans (and in some cases, were up all night, unpaid, on top of doing their day jobs) and everyone else, etc etc.

Again, very well said.

It should not be forgotten that the staff expected to deal with the railway's problems during extreme weather often live in the area themselves, and have their own homes and families to worry about. I recall getting, in the middle of the night, a call to come in on my day off and assist when the railway was getting battered, however at the time I was listening to tiles being blown off my roof and smashing on the drive below, while my garden gate got ripped off and hurled down the street. I politely declined.
(I did turn out once it was daylight and the damage to my home could be properly assessed).

Often people within the railway often are amazed by the sheer (and often) sudden uptick in workload and ongoing tasks required within control environments and the prioritisation needed.

Indeed; As part of the privatisation process additional staff were required in Control, these were appointed from roles outside which had regular contact and dealing with Control, but they freely admitted they had no idea of the range or complications of what we actually did (As I did not when I first entered Control, too).

 

[A S Leib]

Is there supposed to be an admin fee for refunds for tickets unused due to severe weather (in this case an off-peak day single booked through and travelling with Northern)?

 

[cheekybifta]

Is there supposed to be an admin fee for refunds for tickets unused due to severe weather (in this case an off-peak day single booked through and travelling with Northern)?

No, shouldn't be. If the app/website you purchased through is deducting a fee, don't go through the process and instead contact their customer support for a full refund.

 

[P156KWJ]

Here is Aventra EMU 730006 at Kings Norton. When I took the photo earlier today (Mon) it had been here for 48 hours. It's now into its third night here. Three lots of Aventras are still trapped at Northfield, Longbridge and Bromsgrove as well.

The Camp Hill line was unusable from Saturday afternoon until this morning, too.


Mon 9 Dec 2024 at 11:56. 'Storm Darragh'. Stranded Aventra EMU 730006 by 'MrDeltic'

This one should be shifted today, but needs hauling. Stay tuned on OTT/RTT.

 

[86206]

This one should be shifted today, but needs hauling. Stay tuned on OTT/RTT.

The graffiti mob got to it then......Grrrrrrrrrr

 

[Liam L]

The graffiti mob got to it then......Grrrrrrrrrr

The pair at Northfield also got done too

 

[P156KWJ]

The pair at Northfield also got done too

Seems to be a regular occurrence with the 730s, presumably usually at Soho. Rarely a few days goes by now without seeing at least one come past our office that hasn't been redecorated.

Here is Aventra EMU 730006 at Kings Norton. When I took the photo earlier today (Mon) it had been here for 48 hours. It's now into its third night here. Three lots of Aventras are still trapped at Northfield, Longbridge and Bromsgrove as well.

The Camp Hill line was unusable from Saturday afternoon until this morning, too.


Mon 9 Dec 2024 at 11:56. 'Storm Darragh'. Stranded Aventra EMU 730006 by 'MrDeltic'

5Z99 now on its way to assist from Northampton.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:37862/2024-12-10/detailed

Not sure of any details going forward beyond this at present. Wasn't expecting Class 43 haulage of 730s to be on the agenda this week!

 

[1D54]

Seems to be a regular occurrence with the 730s, presumably usually at Soho. Rarely a few days goes by now without seeing at least one come past our office that hasn't been redecorated.

Surely if all this was happening on the home depot something would have been done a long time ago.

 

[Liam L]

Surely if all this was happening on the home depot something would have been done a long time ago.

It's mainly happening whilst units are outstabled at Four Oaks and Wolverhampton etc

The units at Longbridge, Northfield and Kings Norton which have been stuck over the weekend have all been targeted so lots of work for the depot teams when they get the units back to clean them up.

 

[P156KWJ]

It's mainly happening whilst units are outstabled at Four Oaks and Wolverhampton etc

The units at Longbridge, Northfield and Kings Norton which have been stuck over the weekend have all been targeted so lots of work for the depot teams when they get the units back to clean them up.

There is at least one other at Bromsgrove too although I'm not sure if that one has survived.

5Z99 arriving at Kings Norton imminently to start the recovery process.

 

[01d-and]

Not sure of any details going forward beyond this at present. Wasn't expecting Class 43 haulage of 730s to be on the agenda this week!

Any other time some Rail Adventure 43's would quite possibly be stabled at Kings Norton.

 

[P156KWJ]

Any other time some Rail Adventure 43's would quite possibly be stabled at Kings Norton.

RHTT season so the yard is full of jetting trains for a few more days yet. Although today the 43s and barriers were already in place for other work elsewhere, and another pair are now in the South West, also for other work

 

[williamn]

Don't suppose anyone has any idea when the Heart of Wales Line might reopen? No update on TfW since 2am last night...

 

[spp]

Mirrors my experience. The conductor on the Liv-Cre told us to catch a rail replacement bus from next to P12 where we pulled in. 50 ppx or more piled out and saw a couple of buses parked up showing no signs of going anywhere with no station staff to help. I eventually twigged there were a couple of trains to Stafford just after 1200 so I headed to P12 for the 1203 which was locked up & showing no signs of going anywhere. So I headed across to P11 guessing the 1210 might go first which I think it did. If there were tannoy announcements I didnt hear them. No obvious signs of an imminent bus to WVH at STA so I took a taxi.

Interestingly buses were laid on direct from New St to Stafford in the early evening so there were only about 7 of us on the bus from Wvh at about 1830.

Any idea when the tree fell at Penkridge? There was nothing online when I left home at0915. If I’d known I would have driven to WBA.

I think the tree fell quite early in the morning (I got a notification from LNW twitter as have those on alert as use that route often).

I used to love Crewe station but have found it a bit of a nightmare more recently for a station its size it seems to have hardly any staff.

I think another tree fell between Wolverhampton and Birmingham at one point around 3-4ish so this probably explains the Birmingham direct to Stafford buses and yours being quite empty.

When I got on the bus at Stafford around 4pm they were telling people to get to Wolverhampton and get the metro though. Think at one point the metro did have ticket acceptance.