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Strange Decisions by Control

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Aictos

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Okay, looking at a number of train information websites including JourneyCheck, it would appear that some strange and questionable decisions are being made by those responsible now I've never worked in a control environment so am open to hearing why those decisions are made.

To give two examples:

1. Bearing in mind the ongoing works at Stevenage with a rail replacement bus service in place between Hertford North and Stevenage as well as Hertford North to Stevenage via Watton at Stone, a Watton at Stone to Moorgate service last week was amended to run only to Hertford North.

Now I can't see any point in running a train one station along especially with alterative transport being available.

2. Tonight due to a lineside fire at London Bridge and a train failure in the Core, some of the Kent bound services from Luton were calling Parkway, Harpenden then St Pancras now this doesn't make sense to me because surely those services should have stopped at St Albans to provide a connection for passengers wishing to travel to intermediate stations to St Pancras?

If the service must run fast then why not once it leaves London Bridge run it fast to Gravesend as there are alterative SouthEastern services calling stations to Gravesend?

Can anyone who's worked in such a place kindly explain to me why and how those decisions are made as they don't seem to be passenger friendly?
 
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Esker-pades

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In times of disruption, there is no such thing as a universally "passenger friendly" decision. Some things will have to be sacrified for the greater good.

I don't understand your first point.

For the second point, my estimate is that it'll be to do with the crossovers from the slow to fast lines. They are a pair between Harpenden and St Albans. Additional trains diverted onto the fast stopping too would cause too many knock-on delays.
 

bramling

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Okay, looking at a number of train information websites including JourneyCheck, it would appear that some strange and questionable decisions are being made by those responsible now I've never worked in a control environment so am open to hearing why those decisions are made.

To give two examples:

1. Bearing in mind the ongoing works at Stevenage with a rail replacement bus service in place between Hertford North and Stevenage as well as Hertford North to Stevenage via Watton at Stone, a Watton at Stone to Moorgate service last week was amended to run only to Hertford North.

Now I can't see any point in running a train one station along especially with alterative transport being available.

2. Tonight due to a lineside fire at London Bridge and a train failure in the Core, some of the Kent bound services from Luton were calling Parkway, Harpenden then St Pancras now this doesn't make sense to me because surely those services should have stopped at St Albans to provide a connection for passengers wishing to travel to intermediate stations to St Pancras?

If the service must run fast then why not once it leaves London Bridge run it fast to Gravesend as there are alterative SouthEastern services calling stations to Gravesend?

Can anyone who's worked in such a place kindly explain to me why and how those decisions are made as they don't seem to be passenger friendly?

How are you going to run a train fast from London Bridge to Gravesend? Surely it would likely get caught behind other services, making the fast run ineffective.
 

JN114

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Control are looking at a much bigger picture than is ordinarily visible from the perspective of frontline staff or the layman.
 

jon0844

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1. Bearing in mind the ongoing works at Stevenage with a rail replacement bus service in place between Hertford North and Stevenage as well as Hertford North to Stevenage via Watton at Stone, a Watton at Stone to Moorgate service last week was amended to run only to Hertford North.

To stable it at Hertford North? Depending on the time, there are buses from Stevenage at night, so trains are terminating at SVG and then going to WGC sidings. Perhaps there are capacity issues or stabling issues. Or it's down to a lack of relief down the line.

Yesterday there was a points failure at Moorgate so Hertford trains were diverted, while WGC services terminated at Finsbury Park. After a while, long delays built up and some services may have been cut short to operate a later working to get back on track.

I am sure there's a reason.
 

bramling

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To stable it at Hertford North? Depending on the time, there are buses from Stevenage at night, so trains are terminating at SVG and then going to WGC sidings. Perhaps there are capacity issues or stabling issues. Or it's down to a lack of relief down the line.

Yesterday there was a points failure at Moorgate so Hertford trains were diverted, while WGC services terminated at Finsbury Park. After a while, long delays built up and some services may have been cut short to operate a later working to get back on track.

I am sure there's a reason.

Having a look through RTTT, if this was Saturday afternoon then it seems to be the case that there was no driver available, so the decision was taken to stable the train in Hertford North sidings. It missed two trips to London and back, and came back out again for 1736 going north again.

I forget if driver changes happen nowadays at Hertford, but it will either have been a case of no driver to take the train beyond Hertford, or else this was the most convenient way of getting the stock off and back on to the railway with a known relief issue later in the trip (perhaps at Finsbury Park?).

The nasty thing with driver-related cancellations is that if some thought isn’t put in to things then it can have a wider effect, as if the original driver has to spend time putting the stock away then he may well be late for his next train, and likewise once the stock goes away the next booked driver for the cancelled train may find himself with no train and have to spend time bringing it out which will cause more delay.
 

jon0844

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Having a look through RTTT, if this was Saturday afternoon then it seems to be the case that there was no driver available, so the decision was taken to stable the train in Hertford North sidings. It missed two trips to London and back, and came back out again for 1736 going north again.

I forget if driver changes happen nowadays at Hertford, but it will either have been a case of no driver to take the train beyond Hertford, or else this was the most convenient way of getting the stock off and back on to the railway with a known relief issue later in the trip (perhaps at Finsbury Park?).

The nasty thing with driver-related cancellations is that if some thought isn’t put in to things then it can have a wider effect, as if the original driver has to spend time putting the stock away then he may well be late for his next train, and likewise once the stock goes away the next booked driver for the cancelled train may find himself with no train and have to spend time bringing it out which will cause more delay.

Hopefully driver shortages on a weekend are now reducing. I just hope we don't see issues again when it's half term, FA cup final or whatever.
 

Aictos

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In times of disruption, there is no such thing as a universally "passenger friendly" decision. Some things will have to be sacrified for the greater good.

I don't understand your first point.

For the second point, my estimate is that it'll be to do with the crossovers from the slow to fast lines. They are a pair between Harpenden and St Albans. Additional trains diverted onto the fast stopping too would cause too many knock-on delays.

That's true but remember you can signal trains Platform 2 and Platform 3 at Luton directly onto the Up Fast to London so no need to divert onto the crossovers at Harpenden . (The Kents are booked to use Platform 2 but you can see using Traksy for example that in disruption they do use the Up Fast to London especially if signalled into Platform 3)

How are you going to run a train fast from London Bridge to Gravesend? Surely it would likely get caught behind other services, making the fast run ineffective.

Or terminate it at Dartford and restart from there depending on the lateness, there's a number of places on the SouthEastern where you can terminate short of the final destination and still have alterative services for passengers to use.

Having a look through RTTT, if this was Saturday afternoon then it seems to be the case that there was no driver available, so the decision was taken to stable the train in Hertford North sidings. It missed two trips to London and back, and came back out again for 1736 going north again.

I forget if driver changes happen nowadays at Hertford, but it will either have been a case of no driver to take the train beyond Hertford, or else this was the most convenient way of getting the stock off and back on to the railway with a known relief issue later in the trip (perhaps at Finsbury Park?).

The nasty thing with driver-related cancellations is that if some thought isn’t put in to things then it can have a wider effect, as if the original driver has to spend time putting the stock away then he may well be late for his next train, and likewise once the stock goes away the next booked driver for the cancelled train may find himself with no train and have to spend time bringing it out which will cause more delay.

Why not just terminate at Watton at Stone and run it ECS to Hertford CS? Especially as there should be staff there to terminate and lock up the ECS services while they run up to Langley Jcn to reverse.

Control are looking at a much bigger picture than is ordinarily visible from the perspective of frontline staff or the layman.

But what do they actually consider? If it's the fact that the train needs to make up time then just lose the Harpenden stop as Parkway and St Albans are the most important stops being very busy apart from Luton on the Kents north of the river as Parkway is there for the airport and St Albans offers connections for intermediate stations plus a walk across the town to use the Abbey line.

There was one train yesterday that left Luton 14 late yet only made up 7 minutes at Rainham so why not stop at St Albans to provide connections for intermediate stations?

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W40392/2020-02-04/detailed
 

Esker-pades

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That's true but remember you can signal trains Platform 2 and Platform 3 at Luton directly onto the Up Fast to London so no need to divert onto the crossovers at Harpenden . (The Kents are booked to use Platform 2 but you can see using Traksy for example that in disruption they do use the Up Fast to London especially if signalled into Platform 3)
So, your solution for control to make more 'passenger friendly' decisions is for them to make trains stop at fewer places?
What about the additional time penalty for a 100mph unit compared to a 125mph unit?
 

Aictos

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So, your solution for control to make more 'passenger friendly' decisions is for them to make trains stop at fewer places?
What about the additional time penalty for a 100mph unit compared to a 125mph unit?

What additional time penalty? If it's booked to stop there then it can't be much maybe 2 mins if that?
 

bramling

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Or terminate it at Dartford and restart from there depending on the lateness, there's a number of places on the SouthEastern where you can terminate short of the final destination and still have alterative services for passengers to use.

I can only re-iterate what was posted earlier, which is that control will be looking at a slightly bigger picture.

You can't just terminate a train short if the train is booked to have a crew relief at the terminus. I'm not familiar with the crewing arrangements on the Rainham service, but I have a hunch there's a crew depot at Gillingham, which would rule out turning short on at least some services.

Controllers will seek to look at the situation they're faced with, and come up with an immediate plan to "sort" the problem. They ideally want to be able to make a decision there and then, cascade it out to those people who need to know, and then forget about it. That's the only way to keep afloat if they're, for example, faced with a whole list of uncovered driver duties, trains which need to go to a particular depot, stock balance gone awry, or whatever. If things subsequently change then they will simply treat this as a new problem to solve.

In your late running example, the controller will look at what the train *and* the driver do, and decide upon a plan. There's essentially four options:

(1) If there's scope for the late running to correct itself naturally, then do nothing.

(2) If the train doesn't have a crew relief at the terminus, then turning short is an option.

(3) If the train does have a crew relief at the terminus, missing stops may be the best option. If so, there's a secondary decision as to which stops to omit. Controllers won't necessarily have intimate local knowledge of what the dominant local passenger flows are, so rightly or wrongly it will probably be an operational decision based upon getting the service back, rather than considering the immediate needs of the people on that service. Naturally the ideal is to do as little as possible to get things back, or at least give the chance of the train being on time for its next trip taking into account the turnround time *and* what the driver is booked to do next.

If you don't want to do this option on the immediate trip (for example because it's a heavily loaded key peak service, or because there's already been issues and it will create too much of a gap for certain stations) then the controller will look at what the driver does. If he's on the train for a while then let it run late, and sort out on the next trip by any one of the recovery methods. A judgement will need to be made on whether it's worth letting the late running continue for the sake of avoiding inconveniencing the current batch of passengers.

(4) If there's a batch of crew reliefs at a given location, it might be possible to reform the trains into on-time ones. Normally this will involve making up one or more trains on time, and producing one very late train which will then be heavily turned short or miss its circuit altogether. This is most effective when stopping patterns, stock type and destination are the same. The more variation there is, the less likely this method can be used. One thing to beware of is where the trains are booked to finish, for example one train might be on its diagram specifically because the depot want it back - the closer things are to end of service the more this is an issue as there's less time to put things right again.

This method can be quite passenger friendly as if done right some passengers might not even be aware it's happened -- although we did have an example on this forum when such a set of reforms was very neatly done but someone complained that it messed up their seat reservation!

Why not just terminate at Watton at Stone and run it ECS to Hertford CS? Especially as there should be staff there to terminate and lock up the ECS services while they run up to Langley Jcn to reverse.

I suspect the answer to this is more simple, the controller was seeking to run as much as possible with the resources available. If you're cancelling something then rule number one is don't cancel any more than you need to. Without sounding flippant, the object of the exercise is to run the timetable ... it’s a cop out to cancel part of a service for which you have a train and driver present as booked.


But what do they actually consider? If it's the fact that the train needs to make up time then just lose the Harpenden stop as Parkway and St Albans are the most important stops being very busy apart from Luton on the Kents north of the river as Parkway is there for the airport and St Albans offers connections for intermediate stations plus a walk across the town to use the Abbey line.

As alluded to elsewhere, don't assume the controller will have an intimate local knowledge. The main focus is to sort the problem, in this case that is to get the train and driver back on time as soon as possible, without imposing a negative effect on other services. In an ideal world it may well be worth putting a couple of minutes on a couple of other services in order to get one very late train back, but PPM regulating doesn't really encourage this. So in reality he'll be looking for an option which isn't going to mess up anything else. With the plan being seemingly to route the train on the fast line, a stop at St Albans would risk delaying other services far more than gliding through at speed.

Another point to bear in mind is the controller might well not have time to sit down and devise a perfectly crafted plan, in reality he's probably got a whole list of problems to "sort". We on here have the luxury of spending time thinking about what might be the best possible solution for one particular problem in a perfect world, with the benefit of hindsight. The controller's role doesn't allow that luxury.
 
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43066

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How are you going to run a train fast from London Bridge to Gravesend? Surely it would likely get caught behind other services, making the fast run ineffective.

Quite!

Many (most?) of the GTR services along “the scum” (aka the north Kent line) already operate a semi fast calling pattern. Albeit not as semi fast as the SE Ch+ - Gillingham services they replaced, which has ruffled quite a few feathers on here.
 

Class315

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Having a look through RTTT, if this was Saturday afternoon then it seems to be the case that there was no driver available, so the decision was taken to stable the train in Hertford North sidings. It missed two trips to London and back, and came back out again for 1736 going north again.

I forget if driver changes happen nowadays at Hertford, but it will either have been a case of no driver to take the train beyond Hertford, or else this was the most convenient way of getting the stock off and back on to the railway with a known relief issue later in the trip (perhaps at Finsbury Park?).

The nasty thing with driver-related cancellations is that if some thought isn’t put in to things then it can have a wider effect, as if the original driver has to spend time putting the stock away then he may well be late for his next train, and likewise once the stock goes away the next booked driver for the cancelled train may find himself with no train and have to spend time bringing it out which will cause more delay.

Driver changes occur at Hertford, the reason for the train terminating at Hertford NB was probably their was no relief on the Up Road and with the time utilised to stable the unit in the CS, it doesn’t cut into the drivers PNB & delay the drivers next working.
 

bramling

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Driver changes occur at Hertford, the reason for the train terminating at Hertford NB was probably their was no relief on the Up Road and with the time utilised to stable the unit in the CS, it doesn’t cut into the drivers PNB & delay the drivers next working.

That makes sense, however in this instance from RTTT it appears the service was taken out at Hertford on the up, put into the sidings, and then brought out again on the down two trips later.
 

Esker-pades

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What additional time penalty? If it's booked to stop there then it can't be much maybe 2 mins if that?
100mph max units travel slower than 125mph max units. Thus, if one shunts additional 100mph max units onto the Fast Line earlier, they will have a greater impact on the rest of the timetable.
 

jon0844

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With the plan being seemingly to route the train on the fast line, a stop at St Albans would risk delaying other services far more than gliding through at speed.

In some cases, the signaller will overrule some decisions. If a train needs to run on the fast to make up lost time, it may not be allowed to stop - for fear of impacting other services. Then it will be a question of control deciding to skip a stop or having to run the booked route and lose even more time. If that train might, say, have a driver pass to run another service later then you've now caused further delays.

I've heard that in some cases of disruption, the signaller will effectively say 'leave it to us' and come up with a workable and realistic plan.
 

bramling

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In some cases, the signaller will overrule some decisions. If a train needs to run on the fast to make up lost time, it may not be allowed to stop - for fear of impacting other services. Then it will be a question of control deciding to skip a stop or having to run the booked route and lose even more time. If that train might, say, have a driver pass to run another service later then you've now caused further delays.

I've heard that in some cases of disruption, the signaller will effectively say 'leave it to us' and come up with a workable and realistic plan.

That would be a brave / old-school signaller!

Having said that, this is how it’s done on some LU lines. On some lines the controller does the lion’s share of the decision making, whilst on others the signallers make most decisions (eg service recovery) leaving only the key strategic ones (eg stock balance) to the controller. As to which approach works best, it depends on who you talk to!

Of course, crew managers have a big input as well. If they *need* a particular driver back by a certain time then the rest of the setup knows it’s in everyone’s interest to try to accommodate this if at all possible.
 

Horizon22

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Okay, looking at a number of train information websites including JourneyCheck, it would appear that some strange and questionable decisions are being made by those responsible now I've never worked in a control environment so am open to hearing why those decisions are made.

To give two examples:

1. Bearing in mind the ongoing works at Stevenage with a rail replacement bus service in place between Hertford North and Stevenage as well as Hertford North to Stevenage via Watton at Stone, a Watton at Stone to Moorgate service last week was amended to run only to Hertford North.

Now I can't see any point in running a train one station along especially with alterative transport being available.

2. Tonight due to a lineside fire at London Bridge and a train failure in the Core, some of the Kent bound services from Luton were calling Parkway, Harpenden then St Pancras now this doesn't make sense to me because surely those services should have stopped at St Albans to provide a connection for passengers wishing to travel to intermediate stations to St Pancras?

If the service must run fast then why not once it leaves London Bridge run it fast to Gravesend as there are alterative SouthEastern services calling stations to Gravesend?

Can anyone who's worked in such a place kindly explain to me why and how those decisions are made as they don't seem to be passenger friendly?

On point 1 - how late was the train running? Is there anywhere else suitable to turn back the train? Sometimes you could run a train "fast" instead, but would it get caught behind another one negating the whole point of it all? What's the service frequency like? I would suggest that's all taken into account.

On point 2 - I would agree not stopping at St Albans is a slightly odd decision. However there are sometimes connections at Harpenden. At what time was this? If I remember correctly this happened just before or around peak? Therefore the aim is to get it back into pathway for its journey out of London; in which case for this particular TL service it's from London Bridge down the North Kent line. You wouldn't be seen running trains fast normally in the peak (unless its contra flow) due to a) passenger loadings and b) the futility of this - especially in SE London where it will inevitably be caught behind a Dartford SE service on whatever line of route. Terminating at Dartford also a no-go due to the congestion this would cause at that time.

TL services to my knowledge also still have a lot of drivers that only do north or south of the river or only up to St. P / down to London Bridge. Was the case a year or so ago, might have improved since.

As others have said it might not be "passenger friendly" for the immediate passengers, but there might be 4x as many passengers 'down the line' who will be getting RT starts.

This is not to say that different train running controllers / service managers will approach exactly the same situation with different responses...
 

Samuel88

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I think it’s time that the people at control are held more accountable for their decisions, it’s simply not acceptable to skip stations at short notice...
 

Carntyne

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I think it’s time that the people at control are held more accountable for their decisions, it’s simply not acceptable to skip stations at short notice...
People at the Control are held accountable in my experience. Their efforts are shown as plain as day in the PPM scores.
 

bramling

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I think it’s time that the people at control are held more accountable for their decisions, it’s simply not acceptable to skip stations at short notice...

The problem is that trains generally don’t recover more than nominal amounts of late running without some kind of intervention, unless the timetable is structured to give generous layover times at the terminus, both for the train and for the driver.

If something isn’t done the train may well run late all day, which will have consequential effects on other services.

Personally I think turning short is preferable, as this tends to inconvenience the extremities of the route where passenger numbers tail off, so inconveniencing fewer people, but as explained elsewhere this isn’t feasible if the driver is booked off at the terminus.

With an operation like Thameslink the key is the long layovers, but this requires more trains and more drivers, as well as more platform space at the termini - in other words ££££££££.

Having said all this I do think GTR are a little too keen to pull stops at times.
 
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43066

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I think it’s time that the people at control are held more accountable for their decisions, it’s simply not acceptable to skip stations at short notice...

Unacceptable to inconvenienced passengers, perhaps.

But very acceptable to TOCs, who foot the bill for delay minutes, if the stopping pattern is rigidly adhered to during disruption.
 

ChiefPlanner

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The problem is that trains don’t recover late running without some kind of intervention, unless the timetable is structured to give generous layover times as the terminus, both for the train and for the driver.

If something isn’t done the train will run late all day, which will have consequential effects on other services.

Personally I think turning short is preferable, as this tends to inconvenience the extremities of the route where passenger numbers tail off, but as explained elsewhere this isn’t feasible if the driver is booked off at the terminus.

With an operation like Thameslink the key is the long layovers, but this requires more trains and more drivers, as well as more platform space at the termini. ££££££££.

Having said all this I do think GTR are a little too keen to pull stops at times.

Talking to a friend today - his daughter going to a meeting at Elephant and Castle yesterday , had her journey from St Albans on a slow train , -went "fast" to St Pancras - whereupon it was then amended to fast to Wimbledon (well relatively fast I suppose) ....luckily she clawed herself off in time to make alternative arrangements - (presumably , train was actually fast from Blackfriars) ....

Now "service recovery" was meant to pull back the service , and was trialed on old Thameslink , well over a decade ago. It seems sometimes that it as "overused" - and real consideration ought to be done about time of day and passenger (yes - "passenger" needs) , I have been infuriated in the past when a train suddenly becomes (off peak) , fast to Bedford. Yes the driver needs to get back , or the unit does - or both - but consideration about major passenger destinations (like Luton Airport Parkway , which at most times of the day - has passengers bound for or off flights , certainly needs consideration , along with very busy places like my home city of St Albans) ..

In the example quoted , fast Harpenden to St Pancras is daft , OK - they picked up LAP , - but it should really have been fast LAP - SAC - then London. Luton to Harpenden is no big deal unless there were massive gaps in other services. (no offence to HPDN by the way) , try and look after your major strategic flows , - much as a problem south of Blackfriars on the Sutton Loop ought t look after the likes of the Elephant , maybe Tulse Hill ans Streatham . All incredibly busy stations with key links to other services or modes. In any case - the superior acceleration of a 700 is just a bit different to a 319 , and makes "service recovery" easier. Rant over.

Years ago , when I did a proper job , where one of our "not so great" controllers , - but had a bit of a too "matey" relationship with drivers - terminated an 8 car at Watford Junction on the up - (a busy train not long after the peak service) so the train could get back to Bletchley - so the driver could get his planned PNB.

This went badly , as the next train to London was a slow 4 car all stations 321. The station staff caught it big time. To say I was incandescent with rage about this decision is putting it mildly. He could have let it run to Euston , either coaxed the driver to take a later break , or stepped up another crew and relieve the driver at Euston. He thought it was easier to work the "service" for his mate , but he messed up no less than 12 cars worth or passengers. Many of whom made their feelings felt. This sort of caper did not happen again , and I have to say most traincrew were really , really obliging in helping get over the issues that inevitably happened. Gratis tea and bacon sandwiches sometimes assisted.
 

Aictos

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Talking to a friend today - his daughter going to a meeting at Elephant and Castle yesterday , had her journey from St Albans on a slow train , -went "fast" to St Pancras - whereupon it was then amended to fast to Wimbledon (well relatively fast I suppose) ....luckily she clawed herself off in time to make alternative arrangements - (presumably , train was actually fast from Blackfriars) ....

Now "service recovery" was meant to pull back the service , and was trialed on old Thameslink , well over a decade ago. It seems sometimes that it as "overused" - and real consideration ought to be done about time of day and passenger (yes - "passenger" needs) , I have been infuriated in the past when a train suddenly becomes (off peak) , fast to Bedford. Yes the driver needs to get back , or the unit does - or both - but consideration about major passenger destinations (like Luton Airport Parkway , which at most times of the day - has passengers bound for or off flights , certainly needs consideration , along with very busy places like my home city of St Albans) ..

In the example quoted , fast Harpenden to St Pancras is daft , OK - they picked up LAP , - but it should really have been fast LAP - SAC - then London. Luton to Harpenden is no big deal unless there were massive gaps in other services. (no offence to HPDN by the way) , try and look after your major strategic flows , - much as a problem south of Blackfriars on the Sutton Loop ought t look after the likes of the Elephant , maybe Tulse Hill ans Streatham . All incredibly busy stations with key links to other services or modes. In any case - the superior acceleration of a 700 is just a bit different to a 319 , and makes "service recovery" easier. Rant over

Indeed, couldn’t have worded it better myself because no disrespect to Harpenden but St Albans is a far more busier station so if service recovery is key then ideally it should have been Luton - Parkway - St Albans - London - As Booked.
 

43055

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By the looks of things the TL train in question is the 1918 Luton to Rainham (9P59) which started 14 Late at 1932. This then went via the Fast line to Radlett before going back to the Slows (12 Late) and was 4 Late at St Pancras. The train before and after on the fast were both EMR services with one leaving Luton at 1930 and the other being right behind at Radlett.
 

grid56126

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Amongst all of the operational issues highlighted, stakeholder influence is a more recent development.

(Un)fortunately a local MP or two get their own way every so often and any instructions issued as a result have a negative impact elsewhere. All trains must stop ar x or not be turned short at y by instruction means z and many others lose out, sometimes significantly so.

A few disruptive incidents later and the hindsight police appear en masse to deconstruct why decisions were made. They don't like bits of paper with instructions held under their noses, but one thing a good controller does is keep all unrescinded instructions safe and if and when that instruction is rescinded, that's kept as well.

Without quoting examples that would drop me in it, it is difficult to highlight just how big a problem this **can** be and am happy that my career path has mostly removed this from my daily task of balancing spinning plates.
 

43066

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He could have let it run to Euston , either coaxed the driver to take a later break , or stepped up another crew and relieve the driver at Euston.

Careful with that.

The advice given to drivers is that acquiescing to this kind of “coaxing” will cause a (potentially career limiting) can of worms to open, in the event of an operational incident.

Drivers’ diagrams, including mandated breaks, are scrutinised via a fatigue index for a reason.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Careful with that.

The advice given to drivers is that acquiescing to this kind of “coaxing” will cause a (potentially career limiting) can of worms to open, in the event of an operational incident.

Drivers’ diagrams, including mandated breaks, are scrutinised via a fatigue index for a reason.

The preferred option would have been to relieve at Euston of course , (even if meant a cancellation on the down) - fully understand what you are saying. Long time ago and precise details lacking.
 

bramling

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The preferred option would have been to relieve at Euston of course , (even if meant a cancellation on the down) - fully understand what you are saying. Long time ago and precise details lacking.

ISTR WAGN used to diagram a standby unit at King’s Cross during the day, which could be quite useful for smoothing out late running if a fresh driver was ready and waiting. This was of course simpler when the daytime timetable was pretty much solid 4-car.

This nicety went sometime in the FCC days IIRC. Presumably an added benefit was it saved two ECS moves. Nowadays of course the unit would just be running through the midday as part of an 8-car.
 

Aictos

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ISTR WAGN used to diagram a standby unit at King’s Cross during the day, which could be quite useful for smoothing out late running if a fresh driver was ready and waiting. This was of course simpler when the daytime timetable was pretty much solid 4-car.

This nicety went sometime in the FCC days IIRC. Presumably an added benefit was it saved two ECS moves. Nowadays of course the unit would just be running through the midday as part of an 8-car.

Actually I think it went in GTR days as it def was there in FCC days.

If I recall correctly, it terminated as a 8 car then the country 4 went off for the day while the London 4 stayed at the Cross before joining another 4 cars later in afternoon to form a 8 car peak service.
 
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