Strange train seen on Crystal Palace (HL) line

[rogercov]

I wonder if anyone can shed any light on something that's been baffling me for a very long time.

A childhood friend of mine reported seeing a red coloured train crossing the Lordship Lane bridge on the Crystal Palace (HL) line. This would have been around 1954 or 1955. I cannot say whether it was before or after the end of passenger services in Sept 1954.

My friend's father said "Look! An underground train!", which would have been unlikely, if not impossible. Of course, to the untrained eye, any train in South London that was red in colour might have looked like an underground train.

I believe the fact that a red train was seen on the Lordship Lane bridge around 1954-55. Based on that, can anyone suggest what it was?

My guesses so far:
An enthusiasts' special, possibly from another region.
An engineers' train used while lifting the track.

Thanks

 

[steamybrian]

The last passenger train ran on 19 September 1954 which was a steam hauled enthusiasts special. Photographs of this special appear in the website "Disused Stations" by Nick Catford. I am unsure what coloured carriages were used.
The track was lifted in 1956 but unsure whether any red rolling stock was used.

 

[30907]

The last passenger train ran on 19 September 1954 which was a steam hauled enthusiasts special. Photographs of this special appear in the website "Disused Stations" by Nick Catford. I am unsure what coloured carriages were used.
The track was lifted in 1956 but unsure whether any red rolling stock was used.

Can't quickly find a photo of the stock but there is a reference to a Cafeteria Car which suggests corridors so would not have been all-red (steam non-corridors might).
Engineers' stock could well have been red.

 

[rogercov]

Thanks for the replies. With reference to Nick Catford's collection, there is one picture (not on the main page) that shows the "special" on the far platform:

Disused Stations: Crystal Palace High Level & Upper Norwood Station

disused-stations.org.uk

Certainly some of the carriages are two-colour corridor stock (probably blood & custard), but the more distant may not be, but I think that's a trick of the light.

So the mystery continues.....

 

[bangor-toad]

Hi,
I could find one other photo of the final excursion train here:
https://railphotoprints.uk/p769364556/hC1F6322#hc1f6322
It's a black and white image which isn't tremendously clear but it does show the rolling stock in use.

There's another possible way to find out some detail.
Many modellers do pay close attention to detail and may know exactly what stock was used and what colour it way.
The Southwark Model Railway Club seems to working on a model of Crystal Palace High Level and they may be good to approach?
Here's an image from thier website:

And here's a link to thier website: https://southwarkmrc.wordpress.com/galleries/crystal-palace-high-level/

Good luck with your searching.
Mr Toad

 

[Roger1973]

Thanks for the replies. With reference to Nick Catford's collection, there is one picture (not on the main page) that shows the "special" on the far platform:

Disused Stations: Crystal Palace High Level & Upper Norwood Station

disused-stations.org.uk

Certainly some of the carriages are two-colour corridor stock (probably blood & custard), but the more distant may not be, but I think that's a trick of the light.

So the mystery continues.....

There is a clearer view of the last day 'special' train at HL Station in the Middleton Press book 'Crystal Palace HL and Catford Loop' (photo is credited to Crystal Palace Museum, but it's not on their website) which shows most if not all the train being in a two tone livery, which at the time would almost certainly have been 'blood and custard' - I can't identify the precise origin of the coaches other than they are not Bulleid era Southern and look older than that, but I'm not expert in pre-1948 coaching stock.

Bearing in mind that (at least some) underground trains had cream window surrounds in the years either side of the 1939 war, and that LT 'train red' was at that time a shade or two darker than 'bus red' then it's quite possible that a non enthusiast (in an area where most trains would have been plain green) could have put two and two together and come up with the wrong answer if they had seen this train. (Some parents seem to feel under an obligation to come up with an answer to childrens' questions, even if they don't know the answer and it's based on guesswork.)

The same book has a picture of a train (3 open wagons plus brake-van, no engine with them) at HL Station dated 3.6.56 for track lifting, so there clearly were some train movements some time after the end of passenger services, although not sure that red / maroon coaching stock would have formed part of them.

And there are pre-closure pictures showing out of use carriages in storage in the sidings at HL, so there may have been some movements of unusual passenger stock over the line, some of which could have been in plain maroon. Again, not clear whether this use of the sidings ended before or after the end of passenger service.

I think it's extremely unlikely that an Underground train would have used the line for any purposes by the 1950s. I have seen some references to ideas that the HL branch could have been an option for the southern end of the Bakerloo Line (the extension to Camberwell wasn't officially given up on until the 1950s) but don't think this got much further than a possible / concept stage.

 

[30907]

Hi,
I could find one other photo of the final excursion train here:
https://railphotoprints.uk/p769364556/hC1F6322#hc1f6322
It's a black and white image which isn't tremendously clear but it does show the rolling stock in use.

Set 430 was (in 1954 - I just happen to have access to the relevant document) an 8-coach set of Maunsell stock based at Stewarts Lane for special traffic, into which the Cafeteria car has clearly been spliced (whether they took one out to keep it to 8 I don't know).
The coaches are a mixture of vintages, and could be a mixture of green (the brake coach looks a uniform colour) and blood-and-custard (wouldn't be unusual), but none would be all-red.

 

[randyrippley]

Something to remember is the varnished olive green paint used on SR departmental coaching stock would over the years degrade via dirty umber brown to a patchy dark plum red, almost purple

 

[Taunton]

The coaches are a mixture of vintages, and could be a mixture of green (the brake coach looks a uniform colour) and blood-and-custard (wouldn't be unusual), but none would be all-red.

Wasn't the initial BR hauled stock livery, for all regions, "blood & custard" for corridor stock, and crimson for non-corridor? Only multiple units were green. It was later in the 1950s, probably after 1954, that the SR was allowed to paint everything green, which they did with great gusto. In an area where all local services were EMU the plain red stock would be less common.

 

[rogercov]

Bearing in mind that (at least some) underground trains had cream window surrounds in the years either side of the 1939 war, and that LT 'train red' was at that time a shade or two darker than 'bus red' then it's quite possible that a non enthusiast (in an area where most trains would have been plain green) could have put two and two together and come up with the wrong answer if they had seen this train. (Some parents seem to feel under an obligation to come up with an answer to childrens' questions, even if they don't know the answer and it's based on guesswork.)

Good suggestion. However, by that time I think all the cream window surrounds on underground stock had gone, and my friend and I would never have seen them in that colour. To us, all underground trains were red apart from a couple of silver trains on the District (and the Met compartment stock which we discovered later). Also, his father who regularly commuted from Orpington would have been very familiar with "blood & custard" on the boat trains.

Set 430 was (in 1954 - I just happen to have access to the relevant document) an 8-coach set of Maunsell stock based at Stewarts Lane for special traffic, into which the Cafeteria car has clearly been spliced (whether they took one out to keep it to 8 I don't know).
The coaches are a mixture of vintages, and could be a mixture of green (the brake coach looks a uniform colour) and blood-and-custard (wouldn't be unusual), but none would be all-red.

Thanks. Based on these comments, I think it's doubtful that my friend saw the famous "last train". I'm guessing it could have been some crimson compartment stock that went down the line for some reason. Presumeably the loco had gone out of sight and they only saw the coaches.

 

[30907]

Wasn't the initial BR hauled stock livery, for all regions, "blood & custard" for corridor stock, and crimson for non-corridor? Only multiple units were green. It was later in the 1950s, probably after 1954, that the SR was allowed to paint everything green, which they did with great gusto. In an area where all local services were EMU the plain red stock would be less common.

Yes (ignoring experiments) - but plenty of SR steam stock survived in (malachite) green because it got regularly revarnished.
You are right about all-crimson stock all-being rare in South London - unless perhaps one of the ex SECR non-corridor "long sets" (used for hop-pickers and Margate excursions) was repainted crimson - or as randyrippley says the varnish had gone dark with age!
One of them is shown as being berthed at CP HL for summer 1954, so that is another possibility.

 

[Taunton]

I think that Crystal Palace HL had sidings used for long term storage, such as through the winter.

The Southern's euphemism for "revarnishing" meant indeed that quite a lot of their stock at nationalisation lasted in green right through until it was allowed again 10 years later. It could use quite a lot of paint, as well as varnish, in the nature of 'touching up' (Emus just as much as hauled stock), and "repainting" seems reserved for a full strip down to the undercoat, or changing of livery. But the fact that so much Southern green stock lasted into the mid-1950s and then once allowed again suddenly all their BR-liveried stock needed repainting green was, well, let's say a bit of a coincidence. With the simpler paint technology of those times this was far more common than now - cars on the road, often black, would have this redone here and there periodically; London taxicabs often needed some doing for their annual inspection, to avoid being failed with "cab lacks lustre".