Stratford International

[JaJaWa]

The last time I was at Stratford International, the building that was to be used for international departures/arrivals was being used as offices of some sort. In 2o11.12, this building was used as a conference facility to brief TfL managers about what would be expected of them during the Olympics. When I was there in 2011/12, I saw no sign of any customs/security facilities.

Yep 4 April 2012 I attended one.

 

[jopsuk]

the one thing that would potentially be useful at Stratford International (and one of several factors that's stopped it being used a "budget" terminal) would be a reversing siding to the west of the station, so that you could have a train arrive on 1, empty, shunt into the reversing siding and then either go to the depot, or into platform 4 to start a service.
Reversing WAS considered for the domestic services, Stratford International East Junction crossover allows trains to use either domestic platform when arriving from and departing towards the east. Any such reversing siding would however be underneath the River Lea and the Lee Navigation

 

[Ianno87]

the one thing that would potentially be useful at Stratford International (and one of several factors that's stopped it being used a "budget" terminal) would be a reversing siding to the west of the station, so that you could have a train arrive on 1, empty, shunt into the reversing siding and then either go to the depot, or into platform 4 to start a service.
Reversing WAS considered for the domestic services, Stratford International East Junction crossover allows trains to use either domestic platform when arriving from and departing towards the east. Any such reversing siding would however be underneath the River Lea and the Lee Navigation

Although you could in theory use the North London Line Spur beyond York Way South Jn to achieve the same outcome.

The bigger barrier would likely be any "budget" operation having to stomach the entire cost of the security/check in facilities at Stratford.

 

[R Martin]

I worked for BR(E) in the late 60s and although my memory isn't so good now I thought that they retained the old works diesel shed as the DRS(diesel repair shop) and the black building further over was the Power House. On the other side of the line to Temple Mills was the old abandoned Carriage Works often called Chobham Farm. The north of the site was LIFT(London International Freight Terminal) & the old Temple Mills Marshaling Yard. Even further on Temple Mills Wagon Works! If you include Thornton Field for the carriage stabling you had an immense area owned by the railway, plus Stratford Market for fruit and veg! The old Great Eastern Railway owned a great deal of land. i think that I'm fairly accurate.

 

[Taunton]

Only problem with Waterloo being "fine" was the slow trundle though SE London, that and being only really accessible from Wessex vs St Pancras that doesn't have the issues of pathing though a congested SE London metro as it uses HS1 and being based at St Pancras makes it more accessible for far more of the country eg Midland Mainline, East Coast Mainline, West Coast Mainline plus Kent, the move to St Pancras was far superior to staying at Waterloo.

Let us not assume that the key market for Eurostar is those who arrive in London by main line service. Of all the people I have spoken with who have actually used Eurostar, on and off the train, not one was using such an ongoing service. Getting there from somewhere in London/Home Counties seems far and away the most common. Eurostar ought to know both the actual and potential numbers. This particularly applies to those starting from Europe rather than from the UK.

 

[Recessio]

I always thought this station would be far more useful if HS1 and HS2 were linked. It could have been the London stop for Eurostar services that wouldn't divert and then reverse back out of St. Pancras or Euston.

 

[Bald Rick]

Let us not assume that the key market for Eurostar is those who arrive in London by main line service. Of all the people I have spoken with who have actually used Eurostar, on and off the train, not one was using such an ongoing service. Getting there from somewhere in London/Home Counties seems far and away the most common. Eurostar ought to know both the actual and potential numbers. This particularly applies to those starting from Europe rather than from the UK.

Whilst this is true, it is also true that when Eurostar did a comparison of the origin of U.K. based customers in the months before and after the move to St Pancras, there was growth from every single region of Britain except Surrey and Hampshire, which remained almost the same.

 

[Aictos]

Let us not assume that the key market for Eurostar is those who arrive in London by main line service. Of all the people I have spoken with who have actually used Eurostar, on and off the train, not one was using such an ongoing service. Getting there from somewhere in London/Home Counties seems far and away the most common. Eurostar ought to know both the actual and potential numbers. This particularly applies to those starting from Europe rather than from the UK.

My point is valid though as the old route to London Waterloo was slow and had to be pathed with the intensive SE service that didn't help indeed it was like driving along a motorway then being forced to drive down a local road at a much reduced speed, a issue that wasn't resolved until HS1 opened all the way to St Pancras Int.

Therefore it was a upgrade for Eurostar to move away from Waterloo and allow the former terminus to be used for domestic services which it is now doing.

 

[zwk500]

I always thought this station would be far more useful if HS1 and HS2 were linked. It could have been the London stop for Eurostar services that wouldn't divert and then reverse back out of St. Pancras or Euston.

It would have made more use of Stratford but (as has been covered in many other threads) there are many, many reasons why it wouldn't be feasible to run regional Eurostar trains. If the UK government had pursued a different customs/passport policy, then it might have happened, but I think that ship has sailed for at least 20 years now.

 

[Steve Harris]

If the UK government had pursued a different customs/passport policy, then it might have happened, but I think that ship has sailed for at least 20 years now.

And no doubt there will be a lot of people who are glad the government didn't pursue a different customs/passport policy and won't be disappointed that Eurostar doesn't go further than London (in the uk).

 

[zwk500]

And no doubt there will be a lot of people who are glad the government didn't pursue a different customs/passport policy and won't be disappointed that Eurostar doesn't go further than London (in the uk).

There will be people glad it didn't happen just as there are people sad about it. I made no comment on whether it was good/correct or not, only that it was the reason why the trains stop where they do.

 

[ashkeba]

If the UK government had pursued a different customs/passport policy, then it might have happened, but I think that ship has sailed for at least 20 years now.

And 20 years is not long in railway construction time!

 

[zwk500]

And 20 years is not long in railway construction time!

But it's far too long for political decisions to be made on an 'in case' basis. And HS2-HS1 link would need political approval. There's also the not small question of would the economics of Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds, Glasgow (all c.1m population and very much more national than international focused) to the continent add up?

 

[gallafent]

I always thought this station would be far more useful if HS1 and HS2 were linked. It could have been the London stop for Eurostar services that wouldn't divert and then reverse back out of St. Pancras or Euston.

Absolutely. With a stop at Stratford, and one at OOC, through trains could traverse the city pretty efficiently! Hey ho.

 

[quantinghome]

Absolutely. With a stop at Stratford, and one at OOC, through trains could traverse the city pretty efficiently! Hey ho.

To what purpose?

 

[gallafent]

To what purpose?

Regional Eurostar in the first instance, clearly. The “hey ho” reflecting in part that this original plan never made it to reality, despite the trains being procured …

 

[paul1609]

The "M25 catchment" market outweighs the "Kent" market. Hence why Eurostar prioritise serving Ebbsfleet over Ashford.

Its not that simple,if you are coming around the M25 clockwise from South of London there's only about 10 mins difference in the drive time to Ashford over Ebbsfleet (its only 22 miles further). In terms of rail connectivity Ashford is a lot better than Ebbsfleet (even the East London Traffic its just a matter of staying on the HS1 train for a further 15 mins).
The limitation on Ashford in recent times has been the inability of class 374 trains to call there. However with that resolved Eurostar had pre epidemic plans to stop a further 2 Paris trains there as the market growth was stronger than Ebbsfleet. Interestingly if you came back on the evening train from Brussels this stopped at Ebbsfleet but not Ashford, there wernt huge numbers of people alighting at Ebbsfleet but more than 50% of them went straight back south on HS1.

 

[quantinghome]

Regional Eurostar in the first instance, clearly. The “hey ho” reflecting in part that this original plan never made it to reality, despite the trains being procured …

How many trains per hour would use the HS1-HS2 link? Bearing in mind the pre-covid Eurostar service was at most 4tph. The only way to make the numbers work is by allowing domestic passengers to use the services as well, and that cannot happen under our current customs and security arrangements.

Passengers will be better served by having a quick interchange between Euston and St. Pancras.

 

[Ianno87]

Its not that simple,if you are coming around the M25 clockwise from South of London there's only about 10 mins difference in the drive time to Ashford over Ebbsfleet (its only 22 miles further). In terms of rail connectivity Ashford is a lot better than Ebbsfleet (even the East London Traffic its just a matter of staying on the HS1 train for a further 15 mins).

But, psychologically, Ebbsfleet is "just off the M25" or (from north London) "just after the Dartford Bridge".

The limitation on Ashford in recent times has been the inability of class 374 trains to call there.

Not since 2007. Eurostar have made a commercial decision to not serve the station regularly since Ebbsfleet opened, long before 374s even a twinkle in the procurers' eye.

However with that resolved Eurostar had pre epidemic plans to stop a further 2 Paris trains there as the market growth was stronger than Ebbsfleet. Interestingly if you came back on the evening train from Brussels this stopped at Ebbsfleet but not Ashford, there wernt huge numbers of people alighting at Ebbsfleet but more than 50% of them went straight back south on HS1.

And that's the thing. Only a part of Eurostar demand at Ashford is actually from Ashford itself. For everybody else in Kent, a train from (say) Canterbury to Ebbsfleet to connect to Eurostar is not much more of a hassle than a train from Canterbury to Ashford. In journey time terms, the "double back" is not all that big a deal (and in fare terms, only makes the Southeastern leg more expensive).

 

[paul1609]

But, psychologically, Ebbsfleet is "just off the M25" or (from north London) "just after the Dartford Bridge".



Not since 2007. Eurostar have made a commercial decision to not serve the station regularly since Ebbsfleet opened, long before 374s even a twinkle in the procurers' eye.



And that's the thing. Only a part of Eurostar demand at Ashford is actually from Ashford itself. For everybody else in Kent, a train from (say) Canterbury to Ebbsfleet to connect to Eurostar is not much more of a hassle than a train from Canterbury to Ashford. In journey time terms, the "double back" is not all that big a deal (and in fare terms, only makes the Southeastern leg more expensive).

Your absolutely right that in 2007 Eurostar wanted to concentrate on Ebbsfleet at the expense of Ashford but the reality is Ebbsfleet has been an absolete disaster in terms of passenger numbers. It seems that anybody within the M25 will use St Pancras instead. Ashford is definately a niche market but it has seen moderate growth even withi the restricted train service. In your example Canterbury is only 15 miles from Ashford. Most people catching Eurostar will get a taxi there back. Ebbsfleet with its expensive 2 trains per hour isnt really any more appealling than St Pancras.
In the event that Eurostar dont serve Ashford again, I suspect that most people beyond the Medway will simply book a cheap early morning shuttle ticket. Park for free at either of the Calais stations and get a 50 euro advance on the TGV.

 

[Ianno87]

Your absolutely right that in 2007 Eurostar wanted to concentrate on Ebbsfleet at the expense of Ashford but the reality is Ebbsfleet has been an absolete disaster in terms of passenger numbers.

Has it? It took until a pandemic to come along for Eurostar to pull the service. Passenger numbers were, presumably, at least sufficient over 12 years of operation to at the very least not be losing money on the stop.

In the event that Eurostar dont serve Ashford again, I suspect that most people beyond the Medway will simply book a cheap early morning shuttle ticket. Park for free at either of the Calais stations and get a 50 euro advance on the TGV.

How many people do that already?

 

[gallafent]

How many trains per hour would use the HS1-HS2 link? Bearing in mind the pre-covid Eurostar service was at most 4tph. The only way to make the numbers work is by allowing domestic passengers to use the services as well, and that cannot happen under our current customs and security arrangements.

— exactly! … I'm definitely not suggesting it's viable these days, but three decades ago, with the plans for those international services to exist, … and, as you say, allowing domestic passengers to use the service too, … it might well have made sense!

Its not that simple,if you are coming around the M25 clockwise from South of London there's only about 10 mins difference in the drive time to Ashford over Ebbsfleet (its only 22 miles further).

Does not compute. That's an average of 132mph.

 

[Steve Harris]

Does not compute. That's an average of 132mph.

I think @paul1609 meant Anti - clockwise.

I just did a quick google maps search from the M23 to Ebbsfleet/Ashford and there was a 16 min difference in journey time depending if you went to Ashford or Ebbsfleet.

 

[quantinghome]

— exactly! … I'm definitely not suggesting it's viable these days, but three decades ago, with the plans for those international services to exist, … and, as you say, allowing domestic passengers to use the service too, … it might well have made sense!

Surely it made even less sense three decades ago prior to HS1 being built and HS2 even being thought about? Waterloo-Paris took three hours, regional Eurostar services would have taken an hour to pootle around London to get to the WCML or ECML.

The fact is the infrastructure exists right now for regional Eurostar services but it's not used. That tells you something - it's a relatively easy change onto Eurostar from any of the the UK main lines to the north. Direct services would be a marginal gain for a relatively small number of passengers.

 

[ashkeba]

Passengers will be better served by having a quick interchange between Euston and St. Pancras.

How quick can you make an interchange with a 15 minute hike in the middle?

 

[Taunton]

Your absolutely right that in 2007 Eurostar wanted to concentrate on Ebbsfleet at the expense of Ashford but the reality is Ebbsfleet has been an absolete disaster in terms of passenger numbers. It seems that anybody within the M25 will use St Pancras instead. Ashford is definately a niche market but it has seen moderate growth even withi the restricted train service. In your example Canterbury is only 15 miles from Ashford. Most people catching Eurostar will get a taxi there back. Ebbsfleet with its expensive 2 trains per hour isnt really any more appealling than St Pancras.
In the event that Eurostar dont serve Ashford again, I suspect that most people beyond the Medway will simply book a cheap early morning shuttle ticket. Park for free at either of the Calais stations and get a 50 euro advance on the TGV.

The catchment areas are different. I described above that from Canary Wharf it's more straightforward to use Ebbsfleet (where we are indeed some of the few) than St Pancras, which for road access is a pig to get to (even by Uber/taxi it takes longer to get to than Ebbsfleet), has excessively charged parking, and by TfL requires three services, quite a lot of walking, and is really impractical with suitcases and children.

Meanwhile even I was surprised that in pre-HS1 days colleagues from Cambridgeshire were driving to Ashford as being more practical than going via London. Cambridge station has road access issues similar to St Pancras.

 

[Ianno87]

How quick can you make an interchange with a 15 minute hike in the middle?

Quicker than waiting an hour or more for an irregular direct service, which is what any HS1-HS2 service would be.

 

[paul1609]

I think @paul1609 meant Anti - clockwise.

I just did a quick google maps search from the M23 to Ebbsfleet/Ashford and there was a 16 min difference in journey time depending if you went to Ashford or Ebbsfleet.

Youre right I did.

 

[Bald Rick]

How quick can you make an interchange with a 15 minute hike in the middle?

I routinely make ten minute connections between the two with the “15” minute, err, “hike” for less than half a mile.

 

[ashkeba]

I routinely make ten minute connections between the two with the “15” minute, err, “hike” for less than half a mile.

How, with the current border control and resulting checking time? (30 ? minutes)