Strike-affected journey on Sunday - options?

[redreni]

Unfortunately I didn’t have the same luck as GPmartin. [...]

My question is what do I do with our tickets we used yesterday (Sunday): [...]

I concur with Haywain it's not so much the tickets you used, the issue is the return portion of those super off-peak returns and the valid itinerary you had that was not delivered on. And the additional tickets you were made to buy at the gateline at Euston.

As WMT have told you, you could get a refund on the tickets you were unable to use (although I'm not sure how much they'd give you if you used the outbound but not the return portion - presumably half). As these tickets were presumably much cheaper than the amount for which you were shaken down at Euston, however, you might want to press instead for reimbursement of those greater costs.

That could either be from Avanti on the basis that they were required under the NRCoT to assist you due to the fact you'd otherwise have been stranded, or against WMT under PRO.

There are other threads about enforcing PRO rights - it is best to ask to be re-routed at the earliest opportunity (otherwise they could claim to have been unaware that you wanted to be re-routed as you might have preferred to defer travel or take another mode of transport entirely (e.g. coach) and get a refund on your train tickets later). Should the TOC that is responsible for re-routing you (in this case WMT) refuse, then it is advisible to keep evidence or their refusal before you re-route yourself by buying a new ticket. The truth is, however, they wouldn't have re-routed you as the testimony of others on this thread, as well as other evidence, demonstrates clearly. So there's no harm in asking them to reimburse you for the tickets you bought from Avanti on the basis that you incurred this cost as a result of their failure to re-route you as required under PRO.

I would pursue both options concurrently:

- against Avanti under NRCoT for a refund of the tickets you bought from them on the basis that you were effectively stranded so, notwithstanding lack of general ticket acceptance, in your case they were obligated to accept your ticket) and
- against WMT for reimbursement of your costs in buying new tickets from Avanti as a result of their failure to re-route you under PRO.

I don't think the fact you'd be pursuing Avanti for a refund changes the fact you have already incurred these costs, so it's perfectly proper to also seek reimbursement of those costs from WMT, providing it is your intention to do the following:

- If you get a refund from Avanti, contact WMT to explain this and withdraw your claim for reimbursement, and
- in the unlikely event Avanti refunds you and WMT compensates you at the same time, contact WMT to offer them the money back (but do charge them a reasonable admin fee).

 

[Haywain]

here are other threads about enforcing PRO rights - it is best to ask to be re-routed at the earliest opportunity (otherwise they could claim to have been unaware that you wanted to be re-routed as you might have preferred to defer travel or take another mode of transport entirely (e.g. coach) and get a refund on your train tickets later).

I would go further - it is essential to ask. Failure to do so means you cannot do something else on the basis of the provider's refusal to assist.

 

[redreni]

I would go further - it is essential to ask. Failure to do so means you cannot do something else on the basis of the provider's refusal to assist.

Hmm, if they're prepared to lie to a District Judge and say they might have re-routed the passenger if asked, then I suppose they could deny responsibility for the passenger's cost in re-routing.

I don't think it can do any harm to pursue WMT in this case. It is definitely much better to ask to be re-routed and get a documented refusal before buying a new ticket, but in this case it sounds like the passenger believed ticket acceptance would be in place which may explain why they didn't do that.

 

[Haywain]

Hmm, if they're prepared to lie to a District Judge and say they might have re-routed the passenger if asked, then I suppose they could deny responsibility for the passenger's cost in re-routing.

They do not have to lie, they could simply state that they were not asked and therefore not provided with an opportunity to do anything. And that would be true.

 

[redreni]

They do not have to lie, they could simply state that they were not asked and therefore not provided with an opportunity to do anything. And that would be true.

I don't disagree, but evidence could be produced that they have a policy of not complying with PRO where the passenger wishes to be rerouted at the earliest opportunity and they would have to respond to that. And unless they responded by lying, it would be open to a judge to decide they had failed to re-route a passenger even if that particular passenger hadn't specifically asked them to. The regulation is silent on whether you have to ask.

In well regulated industries, businesses are expected proactively to inform customers of their rights.

 

[Haywain]

The regulation is silent on whether you have to ask.

It states that you have a right to be offered rerouting, not that you have a right to reroute yourself. And if you want to be offered something over and above what has been publicly stated you are going to have to ask.

 

[jrh2254]

Thanks for all your responses. Just to clarify I did ask WMR would they have laid on alternative transport , albeit it was just after I had bought the new tickets with avanti (I had to make a quick decision or miss the train).
They replied :
“if your WMR/LNR ticket is unused, you can claim a full refund of that from the original point of sale. Unfortunately, we do not have ticket acceptance with Avanti today so a new Avanti ticket would have had to be purchased I'm afraid.”

“As it was a pre amended timetable as a result of industrial action, we cannot provide any compensation for additional expenses incurred as a result, including but not limited to taxi's, hotels and alternative tickets.”

“As it was amended and advertised in advance the date of travel, for compensation purposes this counts as a pre amended timetable rather than a cancellation.”

“It is solely down to Avanti whether to accept our tickets or not, this can vary due to several factors but if their trains are too busy with their own passengers, then they cannot accept other operators tickets.

The amended timetable for today was announced Wednesday afternoon. Before that, warnings of a heavily reduced service and mass cancellations today was 2-3 weeks ago when the industrial action was announced.”

I bought my tickets (with reservations) before the amended timetable was announced the previous Wednesday. WMR say it was not a cancellation ? What difference is there between a “cancellation” versus “an amended timetable” for my refund ?

Is it worth pursuing WMR for the cost of the avanti tickets (cost a lot more than WMR) or just claim the cost of the unused return portion of our tickets from WMR ?

Many thanks.

 

[Watershed]

Thanks for all your responses. Just to clarify I did ask WMR would they have laid on alternative transport , albeit it was just after I had bought the new tickets with avanti (I had to make a quick decision or miss the train).
They replied :
“if your WMR/LNR ticket is unused, you can claim a full refund of that from the original point of sale. Unfortunately, we do not have ticket acceptance with Avanti today so a new Avanti ticket would have had to be purchased I'm afraid.”

“As it was a pre amended timetable as a result of industrial action, we cannot provide any compensation for additional expenses incurred as a result, including but not limited to taxi's, hotels and alternative tickets.”

“As it was amended and advertised in advance the date of travel, for compensation purposes this counts as a pre amended timetable rather than a cancellation.”

“It is solely down to Avanti whether to accept our tickets or not, this can vary due to several factors but if their trains are too busy with their own passengers, then they cannot accept other operators tickets.

The amended timetable for today was announced Wednesday afternoon. Before that, warnings of a heavily reduced service and mass cancellations today was 2-3 weeks ago when the industrial action was announced.”

I bought my tickets (with reservations) before the amended timetable was announced the previous Wednesday. WMR say it was not a cancellation ? What difference is there between a “cancellation” versus “an amended timetable” for my refund ?

Is it worth pursuing WMR for the cost of the avanti tickets (cost a lot more than WMR) or just claim the cost of the unused return portion of our tickets from WMR ?

Many thanks.

WMT can label it however they want but at the end of the day, they cancelled all their services and were thus obliged to re-route you - and indeed to arrange some alternative for you to get to your destination. They failed or refused to do either and are therefore liable for your reasonable costs in making your own arrangements.

The amount of notice they gave of the cancellation of all services is completely immaterial. The member of staff who wrote the response evidently hasn't a clue about the legal principles at stake. In all fairness, they're probably just repeating the self-serving and mendacious company line.

I would absolutely not just accept a refund of your original tickets; this would leave you considerably out of pocket. I might be minded to accept it as a part-payment towards the full amount owed. Indeed there might be scope for a price reduction (i.e. partial or full refund) under the Consumer Rights Act for failing to provide the service with reasonable care and skill.

But in either event you are entitled to be reimbursed your additional expenses incurred in paying for new Avanti tickets, and you should pursue this as far as necessary.

 

[redreni]

Interesting that WMT are not only passing the buck to Avanti by saying they could have accepted your ticket, but also making excuses for them by saying they couldn't accept your ticket if their trains were full. It's necessary to wait and see what Avanti says about why it didn't assist you as required under the NRCoT, since there was otherwise no way for you to get to the destination on your ticket on the day.

I do think it interesting, though, that the train was too full to accomodate you until you reluctantly produced your credit card, at which point it suddenly wasn't.

 

[TheManOnThe172]

In this example, and other similar cases, there are repeated points where the advice is to make a request to a TOC and (and often make a choice of actions) ahead of travel.

That seems to work for social media users, but what should others do? Whenever I email EMR, I get an automatic reply promising a considered answer within 20 working days. What if a non-social-media passenger needs to know the TOC answer for a journey that will be long gone by the time they get around to answering?

 

[Watershed]

In this example, and other similar cases, there are repeated points where the advice is to make a request to a TOC and (and often make a choice of actions) ahead of travel.

That seems to work for social media users, but what should others do? Whenever I email EMR, I get an automatic reply promising a considered answer within 20 working days. What if a non-social-media passenger needs to know the TOC answer for a journey that will be long gone by the time they get around to answering?

They could call the TOC concerned, but the difficulty then is that you don't have anything in writing to conclusively prove what was said.

 

[jrh2254]

I did consider that (and indeed I do have a screenshot of the original permission!) - however, I'm not sure how Twitter works when it comes to showing that notifications have been read, and I'd rather do things by the book.

I think I've taken the conversation with WMT Twitter team as far as it will go. In response to my reply above:

I replied:

To which they responded:

I read this as an invitation to buy a ticket and try my luck with a retrospective PRO claim through their Customer Relations office. I'm prepared to do this, but will try to exercise my NRCoT 28.2 rights at Burton and Birmingham first.

If I do need to buy a ticket, I'll have to decide whether to do it on the train or at New Street. I guess if I buy one on the train I may be charged the full open single rather than the off peak single - do you think that would affect the chances of my PRO claim?

Thanks again to all for the advice and suggestions.

Thank you for this. Given my circumstances outlined above and WMT response I have also "read this as an invitation to buy a ticket and try my luck with a retrospective PRO claim through their Customer Relations office.", for the full price of my tickets with Avanti. Is there a specific proforma/set of words to use ? I purchased 2 single tickets to Birmingham from Avanti to replace the WMT & connections tickets we purchased (one purchased from this forum and one purchased from Uber). Thank you.

Just been onto the WMT customer services website and I selected 'customer complaint' , followed by
'Policies and Procedures (inc. refunds)'. It then asked for journey details which I assumed to be the WMT which was cancelled , rather than the Avanti service I caught? In any event it says there will be an opportunity to comment in further detail later.

Interesting that WMT are not only passing the buck to Avanti by saying they could have accepted your ticket, but also making excuses for them by saying they couldn't accept your ticket if their trains were full. It's necessary to wait and see what Avanti says about why it didn't assist you as required under the NRCoT, since there was otherwise no way for you to get to the destination on your ticket on the day.

I do think it interesting, though, that the train was too full to accomodate you until you reluctantly produced your credit card, at which point it suddenly wasn't.

Thanks. I would argue that Avanti refused me boarding at the gate unless I paid for a new ticket , so will this be classed as 'it didnt assist me as required under the NRCoT' Obviously Avanti did assist me after it relieved me of my money!

Update PRO claim now done to WMT. Will update on progress !

 

[gpmartin]

Update PRO claim now done to WMT. Will update on progress !

Good luck. I'm not sure if it will help given the discussion above, but if you would like copies of the messages sent to me by WMT (including their refusal to respond to my request to be rerouted in accordance with the PRO), I'll be happy to send them to you.

 

[jrh2254]

Thank you for this. Given my circumstances outlined above and WMT response I have also "read this as an invitation to buy a ticket and try my luck with a retrospective PRO claim through their Customer Relations office.", for the full price of my tickets with Avanti. Is there a specific proforma/set of words to use ? I purchased 2 single tickets to Birmingham from Avanti to replace the WMT & connections tickets we purchased (one purchased from this forum and one purchased from Uber). Thank you.

Just been onto the WMT customer services website and I selected 'customer complaint' , followed by
'Policies and Procedures (inc. refunds)'. It then asked for journey details which I assumed to be the WMT which was cancelled , rather than the Avanti service I caught? In any event it says there will be an opportunity to comment in further detail later.


Thanks. I would argue that Avanti refused me boarding at the gate unless I paid for a new ticket , so will this be classed as 'it didnt assist me as required under the NRCoT' Obviously Avanti did assist me after it relieved me of my money!

Update PRO claim now done to WMT. Will update on progress !

Response from WMT ! :
"Thank you for your email. In relation to your enquiry about obtaining a refund for your tickets dated 4th February I can confirm that you are to return to the original retailer you purchased the tickets from. It was ourselves then please contact the number below and seek assistance.

0333 311 0039

If you purchased your tickets from any other retailer then please contact them directly."

What does this mean : return the tickets to Avanti for a refund ? What rationale do I give ? I used the Avanti tickets on an Avanti train ?
Or are they referring to the WMR tickets ?
I dont think its very clear ? Or are they just fobbing me off?
Thank you.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Who did you buy your ticket from ? You need to go back to them for a refund

 

[jrh2254]

Who did you buy your ticket from ? You need to go back to them for a refund

Original tickets were bought from this rail forum using the link provided.
New tickets from avanti at the gate prior to boarding at Euston.

 

[317 forever]

A further update. This morning I received the following DM from WMT on Twitter:



I've replied reasserting my PRO rights:


I'll let you know what they say. I will also see what Burton ticket office have to say as @clagmonster suggests. I presume, though, that I can no longer rely on the original information provided by WMT and simply board an Avanti train, as I might now be liable for prosecution - presumably authority to board provided by a rail company staff member that is later rescinded doesn't count!

Where the offer of a refund by WMT/LNR is still less helpful than it sounds is that they would have expected you to pay more to travel on other operators due to the non-delivery of their own services.

 

[redreni]

Who did you buy your ticket from ? You need to go back to them for a refund

Doesn't that depend which tickets we're talking about?

If we're talking about the WMT tickets, surely jrh2254 should only approach the retailer for a refund if he is willing to accept a refund on his WMT tickets (which I don't see why he should as he was entitled to be either refunded or re-routed at the earliest opportunity or to defer travel to a later date and in this case, re-routing would have been worth more than a refund. Redress for WMT's failure to re-route him would also be more valuable than a refund.)

If we're talking about the Avanti tickets, as I say, I would argue Avanti should have accepted jrh2254's WMT tickets rather than insist he bought new tickets at the gateline and for that reason, even though the tickets are used, they should still be refunded by Avanti. I would pursue them for that.

 

[jrh2254]

Doesn't that depend which tickets we're talking about?

If we're talking about the WMT tickets, surely jrh2254 should only approach the retailer for a refund if he is willing to accept a refund on his WMT tickets (which I don't see why he should as he was entitled to be either refunded or re-routed at the earliest opportunity or to defer travel to a later date and in this case, re-routing would have been worth more than a refund. Redress for WMT's failure to re-route him would also be more valuable than a refund.)

If we're talking about the Avanti tickets, as I say, I would argue Avanti should have accepted jrh2254's WMT tickets rather than insist he bought new tickets at the gateline and for that reason, even though the tickets are used, they should still be refunded by Avanti. I would pursue them for that.

Thank you , that’s really helpful.
I have now sent to Avanti :
"I now understand that on the day in question (sunday 4th February), as there were no WMT services , under NRCoT , "where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your Ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary, provide overnight accommodation for you"

The Avanti train I was expecting Avanti to let me board was the 17.15 train Euston to Birmingham New Street. Avanti would only let me board this service on purchase of another ticket as I held a WMR ticket.

Hence I would be grateful if you could please issue me with a full refund.

Many thanks and look forward to hearing from you shortly."

When they refuse , what is my next move.

Thank you.