Subsidy for TfL bus services is £600m a year!

[Robertj21a]

I'm a big fan of trolleybuses and not just for nostalgic memories of my childhood. One huge sticking point in their reintroduction, though, is that there is hardly anybody in positions of authority in this country, or influential in passenger transport companies, who will stick their neck out and campaign for them. This is partly out of ignorance I would think i.e. they have never seen a successful trolleybus operation and/or still think a trolleybus has to stick to its wires. I'm afraid you also have the huge commercial interests of the battery and hybrid bus manufacturers where nirvana is always just around the corner, but in reality may be 10 or 20 years away or (dare I say it) may never occur in the form it has been promised.

Despite also being a fan of trolleybuses, I think I'm going to have to accept that there is virtually no likelihood whatsoever of any new trolleybus services in the UK.

You only have to go to Nottingham and see the significant number of electric buses in use (and, of course, in London too), plus the imminent delivery of 50+ Scania gas double-deckers to realise that emissions can be controlled, and trolley wires are no longer needed.

 

[HSTEd]

Pure electric busses using batteries are still hopelessly uenconomic and are effectively a gimmic at this point.

But I agree that the lack of political will has killed the trolleybus in the UK - even though it would be a great fit for various routes such as the Wilmslow Road Corridor in Manchester.
They have the lowest marginal operating costs of any bus technology and thus benefit at high operating intensities.

 

[Robertj21a]

Pure electric busses using batteries are still hopelessly uenconomic and are effectively a gimmic at this point.

But I agree that the lack of political will has killed the trolleybus in the UK - even though it would be a great fit for various routes such as the Wilmslow Road Corridor in Manchester.
They have the lowest marginal operating costs of any bus technology and thus benefit at high operating intensities.

A gimmick ? - hardly given the numbers now in use across the world. It's not the lack of political will that has killed the trolleybus in the UK, it's our de-regulated (outside London) operations, plus much improved alternative vehicles.

 

[RT4038]

A gimmick ? - hardly given the numbers now in use across the world. It's not the lack of political will that has killed the trolleybus in the UK, it's our de-regulated (outside London) operations, plus much improved alternative vehicles.

I can't think of any de-regulated bus operation in the UK that has closed, or caused the closure of a trolleybus system ? I think it would be true to say that all the trolleybus systems in this country have been closed down during a very regulated era......

 

[Robertj21a]

I can't think of any de-regulated bus operation in the UK that has closed, or caused the closure of a trolleybus system ? I think it would be true to say that all the trolleybus systems in this country have been closed down during a very regulated era......

We are looking at the reintroduction of trolleybuses in the UK. The de-regulated environment tends to work against that.

 

[WatcherZero]

This is the breakdown of the Tfl Business Units 2015/16 from the Tfl Budget.

Overall
Fares 4.8bn 46% of funding
General purpose grants from Westminster (subsidy) of which revenue grant £447m and capital grant £944m, local tax topslice £854m, £159m grant from GLA towards Northern Line, total 24% of funding
Grant for Crossrail £138m (final installment)
public borrowing and spending reserves £2.1bn 20%
Commercial revenue from sponsorship/advertising/donations £878m 8%

Total operating revenue £6.82bn
Total direct operating costs £6.63bn
Renewals £1.38bn
Loan interst £344m
Total Operating loss £1.54bn

Investment in new infrastructure £1.1bn
Crossrail investment £1.53bn
Capital funding £2.95bn
Net profit on capital investment £285m

Total operating profit net capital investment profit -£1.25bn

London Underground
Fares and other income £2.7bn
Operating expenditure £2.2bn
LU renewals £157m
Capital expenditure £1.2bn
Net profit -£838m

London Rail
Fares and other income £498m
Operating expenditure £557m
Capital expenditure £294m
Net profit -£354m

Bus
Fares £1.61bn
bus contractual operating costs and ticket commissions £2bn
direct bus subsidy £425m
bus capital expenditure £139m
bus administration costs £84m
total bus unit operating balance -£620m

Other surface transport (roads and trams) income £382m
other surface transport operating expenditure £828m
other surface transport capital investment £345m
Other surface transport net balance -£790m

Tfl specialist services (administration, customer services, river transport) income £57m
tfl specialist services expenditure £772m
tfl specialist services capital expenditure £163m
Net -£838m

 

[HSTEd]

A gimmick ? - hardly given the numbers now in use across the world. It's not the lack of political will that has killed the trolleybus in the UK, it's our de-regulated (outside London) operations, plus much improved alternative vehicles.

And in the vast majority of the world (Especially those areas where electric buses are in use) bus operations are not undertaken on a purely commercial basis.

Political requirements are what has driven the adoption of battery-electric buses.
The only way you can get an air conditioned (which is now becoming expected) bus that can stay in service all day without huge air pollution issues is to use a trolleybus.