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Suggestion for all HS2 stations and trains to use UK standard platform dimensions

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HowardGWR

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The through line that was planned, from Old Oak to near St Pancras using bits of the North London Line, was deleted because Higgins didn't consider it was a good solution. We've been over the issues of through services from beyond London numerous times on here, with the general conclusion being that there isn't enough traffic to justify them especially when Tunnel security measures are taken into account.

It has nothing to do with Tunnel security measures AFAIK, but does have to do with immigration controls and non-membership of Schengen.

BTW, I see there are big BCR problems with Euston, so an OOC 'terminus' is back on the order paper. I put 'terminus' in quotes as I still think a tunnel cross link to Stratford is a better idea and the two stations could easily be made 'border secure' (if required).
 
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NotATrainspott

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It has nothing to do with Tunnel security measures AFAIK, but does have to do with immigration controls and non-membership of Schengen.

BTW, I see there are big BCR problems with Euston, so an OOC 'terminus' is back on the order paper. I put 'terminus' in quotes as I still think a tunnel cross link to Stratford is a better idea and the two stations could easily be made 'border secure' (if required).

No matter how bad the Euston BCR is, the Old Oak Common terminus idea is even worse. What that would effectively do is make HS2 entirely dependent upon Crossrail to the point that if Crossrail were to suffer delays and problems, it would not be safe to continue sending trains south of Birmingham to prevent dangerous levels of overcrowding at Old Oak Common. At Euston, there are a huge number of onward connections possible through tube, Crossrail 2, bus services, short taxi rides or if it came to it, simply walking to somewhere else nearby, so there would never be a need to limit the HS2 operation.

In all likelihood there will be a period near the opening of HS2 when some trains will use the Victoria Road crossover box to terminate at OOC while the full number of platforms is not available at Euston. However, this would only be for a limited number of services and it would theoretically be possible for some passengers to crowd onto other services that would continue for the final few minutes to the working Euston platforms, as around a third of all passengers are predicted to leave the train at OOC anyway for its different range of onward connections.
 

Rhydgaled

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If the BCR for London stations is looking shaky, then why not put the idea on the backburner and swap HS2 and HS3? If the 'Northern Powerhouse' doesn't reduce the traffic heading to London enough then a Manchester-London HSR can be built at a later date.
 

NotATrainspott

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If the BCR for London stations is looking shaky, then why not put the idea on the backburner and swap HS2 and HS3? If the 'Northern Powerhouse' doesn't reduce the traffic heading to London enough then a Manchester-London HSR can be built at a later date.

The Northern Powerhouse would increase traffic numbers both ways between London and the Northern cities. It's not a zero-sum game and two super-economies need to have the best possible links between them, which is something only HS2 can deliver.
 

The Planner

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Whats the source for the Euston BCR and OOC being the terminus? as I know for a fact that is far from the case with the work going on at the minute. The plan is still to run to Euston from day 1.
 

HowardGWR

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AIUI, with the many plans for joining lines at OOC, I don't see how OOC is any less handy than the Euston area and a sight handier for Heathrow.
 

edwin_m

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AIUI, with the many plans for joining lines at OOC, I don't see how OOC is any less handy than the Euston area and a sight handier for Heathrow.

They'd still all call at OOC whether terminating at Euston or not, so it's a question of the benefits that Euston brings.

One of them is that unless they make OOC a whole lot bigger or build some rather Euston-like underground stabling sidings somewhere east of it, the HS2 service would be reduced by about two thirds.

Most of the passengers between the Midlands and central London would probably stay on classic because when the hassle of changing trains is factored in the classic journey would be seen as quicker.
 

NotATrainspott

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It's pretty much a fact that any form of full rebuild will take longer than the normal HS2 construction time to finish. The Option 8 design was included in the Hybrid Bill because it was completely achievable in the budget and timescale that has been planned up to now. If there is to be any bigger redevelopment, it will be necessary to do something for the first few years to reduce the total number of trains running to Old Oak Common. Higgins' plan to have Leeds and Newcastle (an extra 5tph, or 2.5 platforms) run there in 2030 makes the rebuild even more pressured.
 

HowardGWR

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They'd still all call at OOC whether terminating at Euston or not, so it's a question of the benefits that Euston brings.

One of them is that unless they make OOC a whole lot bigger or build some rather Euston-like underground stabling sidings somewhere east of it, the HS2 service would be reduced by about two thirds.

Most of the passengers between the Midlands and central London would probably stay on classic because when the hassle of changing trains is factored in the classic journey would be seen as quicker.
Depends on how many walk to their destination from Euston. Nearly all will 'change trains' well, 'change' onto something. It's overall time and convenience that decides it. Is one travelling off HS2 to - Canary Wharf, Gatwick, Westminster, or where? If OOC or Stratford (with two lords type connection) offers a better overall choice and dispersal, I know what I, as planner would opt for.
 

NotATrainspott

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Depends on how many walk to their destination from Euston. Nearly all will 'change trains' well, 'change' onto something. It's overall time and convenience that decides it. Is one travelling off HS2 to - Canary Wharf, Gatwick, Westminster, or where? If OOC or Stratford (with two lords type connection) offers a better overall choice and dispersal, I know what I, as planner would opt for.

If OOC and/or Stratford offered a better overall choice of onward connection and a better dispersal capability then no one would ever have considered rebuilding Euston. We know however that they cannot provide a sufficient level of onward connectivity, and a proper Zone 1 station is necessary for the scheme to work. Both OOC and Stratford are too far out to be served by a multitude of high capacity links, whereas Euston-St-Pancras-King's-Cross is large and central enough to justify being served by several Crossrail lines and other rapid transit investments in London.
 

Grimsby town

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It would probably be a bit more expensive but how about an adaptation of the Euston Cross idea. With underground platforms at Euston (4 for example, perhaps with a fifth central bi-directional platform that could be fenced off for international trains) which then run through to a new terminus station at Stratford.

I'm not sure if there is space anywhere for this at Stratford but it seems to use most things people have asked for. North - London - the continent services, Kent to Heathrow / the North, quick connections to all London and the load spread over more stations. Underground platforms could become very crowded though.
 

edwin_m

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It would probably be a bit more expensive but how about an adaptation of the Euston Cross idea. With underground platforms at Euston (4 for example, perhaps with a fifth central bi-directional platform that could be fenced off for international trains) which then run through to a new terminus station at Stratford.

I'm not sure if there is space anywhere for this at Stratford but it seems to use most things people have asked for. North - London - the continent services, Kent to Heathrow / the North, quick connections to all London and the load spread over more stations. Underground platforms could become very crowded though.

Indeed. With two platforms in each direction each domestic train would have to arrive, load/unload and depart within about 6min.

I'm not sure how this is any different from the original Euston Cross idea, which appears to have been discarded as too expensive.
 

Grimsby town

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The Euston Cross idea still proposed most trains terminating at Euston. What I am proposing would be to send all trains through tunnels to a new station at Stratford. People would purely use the station to get off if the train was coming from the North or get on if it was coming from Stratford apart from 1/2 international trains each way every hour.

I'm not sure it will be cheaper (it will likely be more expensive, just a possible way to give international trains to the North while avoiding the rebuild of Euston and offering new connections.
 

Rhydgaled

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The Euston Cross idea still proposed most trains terminating at Euston.
I've always imagined that Euston Cross would be purely a through station, with all trains running out to Stratford (possibly some as ECS) in order to minimise the number of platforms required in Euston Cross by not having to turn trains round there. If trains terminated there, it would require more platforms and be even more expensive.
 

edwin_m

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Euston Cross was supposed to be combined with a set of turnback sidings somewhere on HS1, probably on the surface section in the Dagenham area. A terminus at Stratford would be a lot more expensive - also I'm not sure the HS1 tunnel would have capacity for the entire HS2 service plus Eurostars and Javelins.
 

MarkyT

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Euston Cross was supposed to be combined with a set of turnback sidings somewhere on HS1, probably on the surface section in the Dagenham area. A terminus at Stratford would be a lot more expensive - also I'm not sure the HS1 tunnel would have capacity for the entire HS2 service plus Eurostars and Javelins.

There seems to be a consensus that tying a cross London HS2 link into the HS1 tunnel is impossible anyway, either somewhere in the St Pancras area, or in the existing Stratford station box, so a Stratford HS2 station would have to be a separate additional 'deep mined' construction. Any HS1 connection would have to be extended from there in dedicated tunnels to a junction in the Barking/Dagenham area as you say, and that is where the turnback servicing and stabling facility for HS2 would have to be located, with all the additional dead mileage to and from Stratford that would involve . . . unless the line was extended yet further out to an island somewhere in the Thames estuary where a large terminal could be built (can't think what for though!)
 

Rhydgaled

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unless the line was extended yet further out to an island somewhere in the Thames estuary where a large terminal could be built (can't think what for though!)
Rather than the Thames estuary, I would suggest it head towards a junction for Stansted with the main line then heading north towards Leeds as HS3 (with the TPE scheme, which isn't really HighSpeed, being given a different name), instead of building the Leeds spur of HS2. That would give a U-network instead of a Y-network, with trains running from Manchester to Leeds via Euston Cross (partly so that you don't need to find turnback space in London).
 

HowardGWR

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Rather than the Thames estuary, I would suggest it head towards a junction for Stansted with the main line then heading north towards Leeds as HS3 (with the TPE scheme, which isn't really HighSpeed, being given a different name), instead of building the Leeds spur of HS2. That would give a U-network instead of a Y-network, with trains running from Manchester to Leeds via Euston Cross (partly so that you don't need to find turnback space in London).

Gosh, the imagination of the man!:D On the other threads, one sees the doubt about the real suitability of the suggested London terminating arrangements. I will give you (and others) this, namely that it seems high time we stopped thinking in terms of termini, perhaps. That's the whole basis for Thameslink, after all.
 

NotATrainspott

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The problem with non-termini solutions for HS2 in London is that to gain the most benefit from them, you need to have two equivalent networks to connect together. Thameslink works because the MML/ECML slows are not a bad match at all for the line to Brighton, as is the pairing between the GWML and the GEML in Crossrail. On the other hand, HS2 simply does not have an adequate paired line because it alone will carry the majority of true LDHS services in this country. HS1 is a very different beast and is actually not a bad pair for the WCML fast lines once HS2 is complete given that only domestic services could be paired. Also, a series of different options were explored back at the start of the HS2 programme and the idea of completely rebuilding Euston was the least bad solution of all. Much of this is because a complete rebuild is necessary in any case and actually, being able to expand the station outwards to have more platforms during construction would not be a bad idea whatsoever.
 
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