Suggestion: Leeds - Harrogate/Otley/Ripon/York clock face timetable

[adrock1976]

I have had a go at creating a Taktplan for the above route out of Leeds.

My starting point was to build it around the existing timing point at Skelton Junction in York of the present day Leeds - York via Harrogate train and worked it around that due to sharing track for the last mile to and from York.

For the reopened lines to Otley and Ripon, I have measured the distances along the former trackbed using Google Maps. Besides the proposed reopening of stations at Horsforth Woodside and Goldsborough (it will also serve neighbouring Flaxby as there are plans for a residential development there, as at Woodside, hence the Goldsborough & Flaxby name), Pool-in-Wharfedale is the only intermediate station towards Otley, with Nidd Bridge and Wormald Green being the intermediate stations towards Ripon. Also, it may be worthwhile having a new station at Bilton Lane to the north of Harrogate on the route to Ripon.

I have seen a mention on Wikipedia of a location called Dragon Junction, but I could only see Dragon Road in Harrogate, which is close to town rather than Pannal or Starbeck. I am unsure which apex of the former Starbeck triangle it was, or if it was indeed near the viaduct near Pannal. This explains how I have used Woodfield Park Junction for the diverging (or continuation) of the route from Harrogate towards Ripon, and Bilton Lane for the other apex where the direct route from Starbeck to Ripon (the third apex is just west of Starbeck station). I hope all this makes sense in how I have explained things.

I have identified various infrastructure interventions, the main ones being a pair of specially dedicated tracks and platforms between Leeds and Armlet Junction (with no other trains using it - no token London Kings Cross, no Yorkshire Rose, no crazy and strange routings of The Sussex Scot, and no fantasy open access operators). Also, some re-doubling between Knaresborough and Poppleton is required for a robust 30 minute frequency along this section, and a new bay platform at Horsforth for terminating trains due to the five minute frequency between Leeds and Horsforth. When previous plans have been mentioned for re-opening Otley and Ripon, I am unsure if it is intended to be single or double track, or how much of the former trackbed has been encroached on.

I have attached the file below.

 

[HST43257]

Some good ideas here, though there are a couple of things I’d say.

I reckon that a 12tph stopping to Horsforth service is overdoing it a bit, when it (pre covid) was 2tph most hours. Tbh, I prefer an ever so slightly less Takt approach, where you have no Horsforth terminators, 4tph all stations Leeds to Ripon then 4tph Leeds to Harrogate, of which 2 would go to Ripon and 2 to York. These would go fast to Horsforth and then all stations in both cases. They can depart 5 minutes later from Leeds and still keep the initially planned path from Horsforth. It would mean that there’s even more paths for recovery/an upgraded Airedale timetable.

I would also raise the fact that a few thousand houses are to be built between Hammerton and Cattal, but I’m unsure as to whether this would merit more than a 2tph service.

 

[DB]

I have seen a mention on Wikipedia of a location called Dragon Junction, but I could only see Dragon Road in Harrogate, which is close to town rather than Pannal or Starbeck. I am unsure which apex of the former Starbeck triangle it was, or if it was indeed near the viaduct near Pannal. This explains how I have used Woodfield Park Junction for the diverging (or continuation) of the route from Harrogate towards Ripon, and Bilton Lane for the other apex where the direct route from Starbeck to Ripon (the third apex is just west of Starbeck station). I hope all this makes sense in how I have explained things.

Dragon Junction is where the line to Starbeck / Knaresborough split off from the mainline to Ripon - the former mainline is a path from pretty much the site of the junction - there's footbridge over the line at about this point (it's not far from Dragon Road, but not next to it). The screenshot below (from google maps) shows it - the dotted line near the middle of the image is the path along the former trackbed. There was also a linking curve from Bilton to Starbeck, which is also a footpath.



As regards Otley, there's a a housing estate built over the line at Pool which would be a problem - if Otley was to be rail connected again, approaching it from the other side (Ilkley line) would be easier and shorter, although either side would have the problem of the trackbed around Otley now being the bypass so a new route would be needed.

 

[SCH117X]

There are houses built on the Ripon route at Littlethorpe and the A61 by-pass occupies part of the route. Reopening plans have tended to promote an alternative route with a terminus near the Racecourse, completely inconvenient for Ripon itself. At Wormald Green a cutting would need excavation of landfill, a replacement bridge at South Stainley and there may some incursions at Nidd south of the B6165. South from the junction of the Pateley Bridge the route is the Nidderdale Greenway, a very popular with pedestrians bridleway that forms part of National Cycle Network route 67 (Long Watton nr Loughbrough - Northallerton) .

 

[DB]

There are houses built on the Ripon route at Littlethorpe and the A61 by-pass occupies part of the route. Reopening plans have tended to promote an alternative route with a terminus near the Racecourse, completely inconvenient for Ripon itself. At Wormald Green a cutting would need excavation of landfill, a replacement bridge at South Stainley and there may some incursions at Nidd south of the B6165. South from the junction of the Pateley Bridge the route is the Nidderdale Greenway, a very popular with pedestrians bridleway that forms part of National Cycle Network route 67 (Long Watton nr Loughbrough - Northallerton) .

That's true, but the former station at Ripon wasn't convenient for the centre either - it was right out on the edge, on the far side of the river. The station building and stationmaster's house survive, now incorporated into a housing estate. The good yard, including a large goods shed, now forms a small industrial estate.

 

[SCH117X]

There are a lot of metal sheds between the bypass and almost the Canal Basin which could be cleared in part to allow a terminus a lot closer to the centre of Ripon if the line was not to continue to Northallerton.

 

[DB]

There are a lot of metal sheds between the bypass and almost the Canal Basin which could be cleared in part to allow a terminus a lot closer to the centre of Ripon if the line was not to continue to Northallerton.

It would be short-sighted to design it in such a way that it couldn't be extended in future if required, though. And from there it would be impossible to get across the centre of the city.

The issue is that there is no ideal location, which probably contributes to the reasons why it's unlikely to happen.

 

[Halifaxlad]

If Ripon was to be reopened I would realign the bypass over to the West where it meets Boroughbridge Rd and to the East above the River so that the line could be re-laid on its old route. (Obviously I would have a station closer to the centre than the one that shut!)



As for the service to Ripon I would say 2tp I think 4tph for somewhere like Ripon is pushing it. 1tph certainly wouldn't be enough to be an attractive service, although that would be much better if you live near the Settle and Carlisle. If it was also reinstated I suspect it may only be single track so you might want to take that into consideration.

As for Otley I wouldn't have said the bypass is a problem. The West end of the bypass could run over a new box tunnel with the line in below. As for Pool, if Old Pool Bank road was upgraded and a new road was created at the bottom, then it may be possible to skirt a single line around the back of those houses.

The crayonista in me says: build a new line and run it under the Airport! Although that itself may have to be a single line. If your'e running services to Otley via Pool (which ever way you do it) you might as well run them all the way to Ikley!

 

[JRT]

Ambitious bid to reinstate Harrogate – Ripon – Northallerton trainline https://thestrayferret.co.uk/ambitious-bid-to-reinstate-harrogate-ripon-northallerton-trainline/

 

[DavidSM]

Well as someone who lives near (half a mile) the former route.
I wonder why a station at wormald green, is this because there was originally a station there! I also wonder how the route continues towards Ripon does it cross the Ripon-Harrogate road as before using crossing gates. As to Ripon itself station back to where it was is not likely, racecourse is way out of town for pedestrian traffic.
Frankly the money needed to get this off and flying would be better spent on providing luxury buses to run between Ripon and Harrogate.
Oh we have the 36 bus service that runs a very smart service between the two places and onwards to Leeds ,serves a number of intermediate communities along the route.
With the greatest will in the world there would have to be major demolition at the Ripon end to shoehorn a station near the centre
and then continue towards Northallerton.

 

[HST43257]

Well as someone who lives near (half a mile) the former route.
I wonder why a station at wormald green, is this because there was originally a station there! I also wonder how the route continues towards Ripon does it cross the Ripon-Harrogate road as before using crossing gates. As to Ripon itself station back to where it was is not likely, racecourse is way out of town for pedestrian traffic.
Frankly the money needed to get this off and flying would be better spent on providing luxury buses to run between Ripon and Harrogate.
Oh we have the 36 bus service that runs a very smart service between the two places and onwards to Leeds ,serves a number of intermediate communities along the route.
With the greatest will in the world there would have to be major demolition at the Ripon end to shoehorn a station near the centre
and then continue towards Northallerton.

If there was a Leeds - Wetherby - Boroughbridge - Northallerton route along the A1 would you want a Ripon spur?

 

[DB]

With the greatest will in the world there would have to be major demolition at the Ripon end to shoehorn a station near the centre
and then continue towards Northallerton.

Which is basically why it's pretty unlikely. Even if the original station site was still available (it's not - housing estate on the site, with the main station building and stationmaster's house incorporated into it, and the bypass occupying the sites of both river crossings), that wouldn't be a good location anyway as it's quite a way outside the town centre. Likewise the racecourse area, as you say - and it floods around there quite a bit as well.

Level crossings wouldn't be permitted now, so that's a further complication.

If there was a Leeds - Wetherby - Boroughbridge - Northallerton route along the A1 would you want a Ripon spur?

Not sure how that would make any financial case - Leeds to Wetherby possibly as that's Leeds commuterland, but beyond that, even if the line was reinstated from Wetherby to Harrogate as well (built over in Spofforth, so awkward there), it's unlikely that there would be any viable case for a line through Boroughbridge.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Regarding Ripon, you could put a new station adjacent to the bypass!

As for Spofforth you could easily go around it!



As for Ripon being served on a spur I think it would be better if Ripon was relaid to Northallerton single track but with long double track section in the middle. Fortunately Ripon is about exactly halfway between Harrogate and Northallerton.

 

[SCH117X]

I also wonder how the route continues towards Ripon does it cross the Ripon-Harrogate road as before using crossing gates.

It passed under the road - the cutting has been largely infilled and would need digging out. IIRC gases from the waste in the cutting caused an explosion many years ago.

 

[DavidSM]

It passed under the road - the cutting has been largely infilled and would need digging out. IIRC gases from the waste in the cutting caused an explosion many years ago.

Funny you should mention that , I was talking to a villager who saw the end result of the explosion. It occurred in a house near the garage. Methane had leaked into the house and went bang when someone light a fire in the house. The kitchen floor was rather readjusted.
as to the cutting yes it was filled in and under the road and across a field. That field section has never been cultivated so I am informed.
but the track at littlethorpe is blocked. Along with a missing bridge at south Stanley and the bypass at Ripon takes up the former track bed. So really a lost cause

 

[DB]

The South Stainley bridge would be relatively easy to reinstate.

Littlethorpe and the bypass are more of an issue and would probably mean a new route into Ripon.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Littlethorpe and the bypass are more of an issue and would probably mean a new route into Ripon.

Regarding the bypass see post 8 as for Littlethorpe the road would have to be realigned although I can't see that being much of a problem! Would have to also realign the field that looks to be used for horses.



As for the houses, fortunately they're on their own private road where access could be rearranged from the South as opposed to from the West, the only problem may be the width. A rough measure using Google Maps and its almost 15m I'm not sure what the minimum standard is for new lines but at a guess I think it might be sufficient for single track.

 

[DB]

Regarding the bypass see post 8 as for Littlethorpe the road would have to be realigned although I can't see that being much of a problem! Would have to also realign the field that looks to be used for horses.

View attachment 93181

As for the houses, fortunately they're on their own private road where access could be rearranged from the South as opposed to from the West, the only problem may be the width. A rough measure using Google Maps and its almost 15m I'm not sure what the minimum standard is for new lines but at a guess I think it might be sufficient for single track.

View attachment 93182

Would really not be sensible to put the railway in such a narrow space that it could only ever be single track. There would also be considerable hostility from the locals in Littlethorpe - there has been every time reinstating the railway has been suggested in recent years. Surely more sensible to find a new route for the railway? There's no rule which says that it has to follow the old route throughout. In Ripon, the bridge over the Skell is now part of the bypass (reusing the piers) and the bridge over the Ure near the site of the original station is gone and the road bridge in pretty much the same place, so the original route would be impossible there in any case.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Would really not be sensible to put the railway in such a narrow space that it could only ever be single track. There would also be considerable hostility from the locals in Littlethorpe - there has been every time reinstating the railway has been suggested in recent years. Surely more sensible to find a new route for the railway? There's no rule which says that it has to follow the old route throughout. In Ripon, the bridge over the Skell is now part of the bypass (reusing the piers) and the bridge over the Ure near the site of the original station is gone and the road bridge in pretty much the same place, so the original route would be impossible there in any case.

I don't really see much of a need for it to be anything but single track, with a passing loop in the middle.

As for using old routes I'm certainly not insistent upon it, but in this case I think that's the most sensible approach for Littlethorpe since the alignment around it is fairly intacted apart from that short section.

As for the locals I suspect they become up in arms about the idea because they presume that it would require demolition of a number of their houses that occupy part of the old line, so no-wonder why they may be against it. If it was put to them that it wouldn't mean this then I'm sure, they may have second thoughts.

I don't think a route would be impossible North of Ripon and over the river, it may be difficult but not impossibe!

 

[DB]

I don't really see much of a need for it to be anything but single track, with a passing loop in the middle.

As for using old routes I'm certainly not insistent upon it, but in this case I think that's the most sensible approach for Littlethorpe since the alignment around it is fairly intacted apart from that short section.

As for the locals I suspect they become up in arms about the idea because they presume that it would require demolition of a number of their houses that occupy part of the old line, so no-wonder why they may be against it. If it was put to them that it wouldn't mean this then I'm sure, they may have second thoughts.

I don't think a route would be impossible North of Ripon and over the river, it may be difficult but not impossibe!

Even if it's only single track, it would still be short-sighted to not allow space for it to be double-tracked in future. If it became a through route then double track would definitely make sense. Right up until it closed some of the Newcastle-Liverpool services went that way (and via Wetherby) - Harrogate is a reasonably large town so this wouldn't be out of the question again.

 

[SCH117X]

All previous schemes, and their seem to have been a constant source of them over a number of decades when its a slow news day, have accepted the need for a new route at Littlethorpe.

The comment that level crossings would not be permitted does raise a problem at Wormald Green as there is insufficient room for a bridge to be built for the C class road to Markington to pass over due to the proximity to the A61 junction. There use to be a level crossing at Nidd (or Nidd Bridge as the station was called) as well on the B6165 but scope would exist for the B road to be realigned if necessary to put a bridge in. Double tracking would cause a lot of objections further south as the line forms part of the popular Nidderdale Greenway cycle route which like most fringe of an urban area cycle routes is heavily used by walkers to the extent it has be classed as a dangerous section on Stravas cycling app and no timings for cyclists are taken on it. As a single track space for the cycleway could be retained but the important vista east off Bilton Viaduct would be loss unless the cycleway was to cross the railway twice.

There would also need to be level crossing on Bilton Lane on the fringe of Harrogate and a connection made across the line just to the south of that for the cycleway that connects Starbeck with the Nidderdale Greenway running along the old line on the north to south side of Bilton triangle; the existing Harrogate-Knaresborough line forming the west to south side and any reopened Ripon line the west to north side.

 

[DB]

All previous schemes, and their seem to have been a constant source of them over a number of decades when its a slow news day, have accepted the need for a new route at Littlethorpe.

The comment that level crossings would not be permitted does raise a problem at Wormald Green as there is insufficient room for a bridge to be built for the C class road to Markington to pass over due to the proximity to the A61 junction. There use to be a level crossing at Nidd (or Nidd Bridge as the station was called) as well on the B6165 but scope would exist for the B road to be realigned if necessary to put a bridge in. Double tracking would cause a lot of objections further south as the line forms part of the popular Nidderdale Greenway cycle route which like most fringe of an urban area cycle routes is heavily used by walkers to the extent it has be classed as a dangerous section on Stravas cycling app and no timings for cyclists are taken on it. As a single track space for the cycleway could be retained but the important vista east off Bilton Viaduct would be loss unless the cycleway was to cross the railway twice.

There would also need to be level crossing on Bilton Lane on the fringe of Harrogate and a connection made across the line just to the south of that for the cycleway that connects Starbeck with the Nidderdale Greenway running along the old line on the north to south side of Bilton triangle; the existing Harrogate-Knaresborough line forming the west to south side and any reopened Ripon line the west to north side.

It's very unlikely that any rebuilding scheme for any line would be allowed to have level crossings. Also unlikely that a cycle route over a relatively short part of the line would be allowed to compromise the scheme if it was realistically going to happen.

 

[Halifaxlad]

All previous schemes, and their seem to have been a constant source of them over a number of decades when its a slow news day, have accepted the need for a new route at Littlethorpe.

Naturally since houses occupy the old route!

As for double tracking a) if HS2 was eventually extended North at the side of the A1 then it might be more sensible relaying and double tracking the line to Boroughbridge and using that instead!

Regarding the Cycle Path, it may be a short section but it is highly popular! They're aspirations for it to be extended to Pately Bridge so any suggestion of relaying the line will meet resistance by locals especially if it was to be double track.

In the past years the locals appear to be quite successful in a number of campaigns against proposed new road bypasses and extension of water bottling plants! So this one needs to be taken very carefully!

 

[DB]

Naturally since houses occupy the old route!

As for double tracking a) if HS2 was eventually extended North at the side of the A1 then it might be more sensible relaying and double tracking the line to Boroughbridge and using that instead!

Regarding the Cycle Path, it may be a short section but it is highly popular! They're aspirations for it to be extended to Pately Bridge so any suggestion of relaying the line will meet resistance by locals especially if it was to be double track.

In the past years the locals appear to be quite successful in a number of campaigns against proposed new road bypasses and extension of water bottling plants! So this one needs to be taken very carefully!

If necessary a strip of land could be compulsory-purchased alongside to give space for both. The only difficult bit would be the Nidd viaduct and the bit between there and Dragon junction. North of the viaduct it's all through farmland.