Summons by TIL on behalf of Chiltern and a lying ticket enforcer

[benjamin11111]

Hi everyone,

I really need some advice on what to do. So let me set the see last September me and GF were on holiday in London staying near Wembley. From the advice of google maps we traveled from Wembley stadium train station to Marylebone. Upon reaching Wembley stadium there was no ticket office and the one ticket machine we could see was being worked on by a member of staff. We asked this staff member what to do, he said to board the train and either purchase a ticket from the guard or at the next stop purchase a ticket, this advice seemed to follow what was on their website (chiltern's). All was good except we couldn't find a guard. Upon reaching the next stop we went straight away to find a member of staff and tell him of our situation and intention to purchase ticket. He said we couldn't purchase a ticket and would instead collect some details from us, for us to get sent a letter to pay the ticket. It's worth to note he did not read us our rights and in fact told us we wouldn't receive a fine or any legal action. So we went about our day.

A month or so later I got a letter saying we have broken the law and must pay a fine, I of course disputed this saying our circumstances. They position stand firm, I said can we settle out of court but can I please clarify what law you've think I've broken. They came back saying that settling out of court isn't an option any more. This is where it gets interesting.

So at Wembley station there's no barriers, and we told the at the next station that this had no barriers, and the rest. So TIL hs stated that they think I've short ticketed meaning I've lied about where I've got on. Purely based on the fact I apparently stated that I was running late and had to run through the barriers to board the train. I know 100 hundred percent I did not say this. Also why would I state that when it's my first time in London. I know for a fact that now the person I gave my details to didn't put what I stated down and instead put down an untrue story.

As I was writing this they got back to me to again change what I'm going to be charged under. To It is always the travellers' responsibility to make sure they have a valid ticket for travel, before boarding any train where pre-purchase facilities are available for the traveller to do so. Facilities exist at the originating station and we are advised that you had no written authority to travel. But have given me the option to dispose of it for the payment of £256 and some pence

Other things to note, they have changed three times what they are going to charge me under 3 times. I need some advice as I can not pay anywhere near that sum and I don't see how I've broken the law, because a member of staff told me to purchase a ticket from the guard or at the next stop. If I went to court could I win. I do have evidence that I got on at Wembley station and a witness to this all

edit this is what they want to charge me under now. Railways Act 1889 Section 5.3(a)

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Welcome to the forum!

If you're able to say on oath at court what you've told us, and assuming that your witness is your GF (who was travelling with you) then, yes, you could win this at court, in that what you're saying is believable but is different from what the railway are saying. But you need to be aware that your evidence and that of your GF might not be accepted as true: it is unfortunate but there are some people who lie under oath, and the prosecutor would also point out that your witness (your GF) shares an interest with you in saying that you were given permission to travel, so your GF isn't someone neutral!

You also need to be aware that if you let this go to court and fight it, you will have to appear and give your evidence, and make your case. This can be done, but it won't be easy. A lot depends how you are off for the time to do this, and how good you are at handling the stress that will come with it.

Others will be along with more detailed (and quite likely better) advice on how to take this matter forward. But be aware that fighting it will be difficult - even if that is the right thing to do.

(edited to correct typos)

 

[OxtedSignaller]

There are no guards routinely on Chiltern Railways services which stop at Wembley Stadium (unless they are loco hauled mainline service, which i believe is a rare occurance at that station) they are all Driver Only Operated services, so if its the case that a member of staff advised you to board the train and purchase on board that is very poor advice.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you have any evidence of the machine being worked on? You don't have to but I now routinely take a photo of any closed booking office/out of order TVM to help my case if an RPI gets shirty.

What was the next stop?

There are no guards routinely on Chiltern Railways services which stop at Wembley Stadium (unless they are loco hauled mainline service, which i believe is a rare occurance at that station) they are all Driver Only Operated services, so if its the case that a member of staff advised you to board the train and purchase on board that is very poor advice.

Unlikely you'd be sold a ticket on board, but if there is no means of purchase at the origin then you can still purchase at the destination. No UK TOC has a blanket "no ticket no travel" policy like that in place on Swiss regional services where if the TVM is broken the station is effectively closed.

 

[spag23]

Perhaps the OP could ask the Company for the maintenance log of the TVM, specifying the exact date and time of their encounter with the staff member servicing it? A Post Office style refusal to disclose would be interesting!

 

[benjamin11111]

Do you have any evidence of the machine being worked on? You don't have to but I now routinely take a photo of any closed booking office/out of order TVM to help my case if an RPI gets shirty.

What was the next stop?



Unlikely you'd be sold a ticket on board, but if there is no means of purchase at the origin then you can still purchase at the destination. No UK TOC has a blanket "no ticket no travel" policy like that in place on Swiss regional services where if the TVM is broken the station is effectively closed.

the next stop is Marylebone, upon reaching the station we both went and found a member of staff asap to purchase a ticket. Could be backed up by cctv, likewise the machine being broken and me talking to the staff member who told me to purchase at next station would also be on cctv.

They are saying that two machines where working as-well as contactless. I don't use contactless on cards as it risky. One machine was being worked on when we got there and we didn't see a second one. The main reason we got on and travelled was because we were told by a staff member we could purchase a ticket at the next stop

no evidence of it being broken or worked on

There are no guards routinely on Chiltern Railways services which stop at Wembley Stadium (unless they are loco hauled mainline service, which i believe is a rare occurance at that station) they are all Driver Only Operated services, so if its the case that a member of staff advised you to board the train and purchase on board that is very poor advice.

I realise that now. I find it even worse that the person who took my details lied on the form, to make it look like I short ticketed. That's what they said I did first, when I called them out on him lying and offered to show evidence they changed their stance to a different charge.

 

[SteveM70]

Realistically, if this happened last September then regardless of whether any cctv was recorded at the time, it won’t be available now I’m afraid

 

[benjamin11111]

Realistically, if this happened last September then regardless of whether any cctv was recorded at the time, it won’t be available now I’m afraid

so I have more evidence of the truth then.

 

[FenMan]

Where were you planning to go to? Marylebone is not exactly a tourist hotspot.

Also, what were the exact tickets that you and your girlfriend were intending to purchase at Wembley Stadium?

 

[benjamin11111]

Where were you planning to go to? Marylebone is not exactly a tourist hotspot.

Also, what were the exact tickets that you and your girlfriend were intending to purchase at Wembley Stadium?

Thank-you for the reply. Not sure how this helps but interested to hear your take.

After Marylebone then take a tube to Notting Hill, we just did what google maps said.

Just a standard single to Marylebone.

 

[FenMan]

Thank-you for the reply. Not sure how this helps but interested to hear your take.

After Marylebone then take a tube to Notting Hill, we just did what google maps said.

Just a standard single to Marylebone.

So, a journey to Notting Hill. How did you pay for the Tube leg?

 

[benjamin11111]

So, a journey to Notting Hill. How did you pay for the Tube leg?

I purchased a ticket with cash

 

[Papyrus]

Absent CCTV, I would recommend that you produce to the TOC the docs recording your stay in Wembley as evidence to corroborate your account of the journey.

 

[benjamin11111]

Absent CCTV, I would recommend that you produce to the TOC the docs recording your stay in Wembley as evidence to corroborate your account of the journey.

May I ask what does TOC mean

I have all the evidence to prove my journey from Wembley

 

[Papyrus]

In this case Chiltern/their agent TIL

 

[Bletchleyite]

May I ask what does TOC mean

I have all the evidence to prove my journey from Wembley

Train operating company.

The station map:

seems to show there only being one TVM, or if there's more than one they're all in the same location.

 

[Sultan]

I'm afraid that according to this link, there appears to be 2 ticket machines at Wembley Stadium:

https://images.nationalrail.co.uk/e...601964c837fe/Wembley_Stadium_station_plan.jpg

So I'm not sure why the member of staff wouldn't point you in the direction of the other machine (assuming it was working). At any rate, it'll be one person's word against another and if you go to court, the outcome may be determined on who presents their case most convincingly (based on probability).

Incidentally, why have Chiltern not raised a similar case against your girlfriend (if they indeed haven't)? I wasn't even aware it is possible for someone to be charged with an offence that another adult committed. Others will advise on this technicality.

 

[benjamin11111]

Train operating company.

The station map:

seems to show there only being one TVM, or if there's more than one they're all in the same location.

This is amazing where did you find this and is this up to date. I assume TVM means ticket machine, am I right

 

[Sultan]

Train operating company.

The station map:

seems to show there only being one TVM, or if there's more than one they're all in the same location.

Beat me to it, but I see 2 ticket machines in separate areas?

 

[benjamin11111]

In this case Chiltern/their agent TIL

TIL

I'm afraid that according to this link, there appears to be 2 ticket machines at Wembley Stadium:

https://images.nationalrail.co.uk/e...601964c837fe/Wembley_Stadium_station_plan.jpg

So I'm not sure why the member of staff wouldn't point you in the direction of the other machine (assuming it was working). At any rate, it'll be one person's word against another and if you go to court, the outcome may be determined on who presents their case most convincingly (based on probability).

Incidentally, why have Chiltern not raised a similar case against your girlfriend (if they indeed haven't)? I wasn't even aware it is possible for someone to be charged with an offence that another adult committed. Others will advise on this technicality.

Assuming this goes to court, I can present a-lot of evidence. Including proving that TIL changes their story of my offence when I can prove it with evidence. TIL seems to me that they are trying to put an offence by me, by any means.

Furthermore, in one letter from TIL they even stated that Wembley stadium has a ticket office I could use. They didn't spend even two minutes to fact check it.

To me the second machine looks to be out of view from the platform which I could use as a defence. The defence being I got told to purchase a ticket at the next station and that the second machine wasn't viewable from the platform

 

[AlterEgo]

So you planned to purchase a ticket with cash at Wembley Stadium, and then bought a tube ticket, also with cash? That’s vastly more expensive.

Why wouldn’t you just use contactless? I can’t fathom this case at all.

 

[benjamin11111]

So you planned to purchase a ticket with cash at Wembley Stadium, and then bought a tube ticket, also with cash? That’s vastly more expensive.

Why wouldn’t you just use contactless? I can’t fathom this case at all.

Yes cash at Wembley. It wasn’t a long trip so we just paid with cash.

I did have a card but it wasn’t contactless. None of my cards have contactless due to reasons

 

[jamiearmley]

So you planned to purchase a ticket with cash at Wembley Stadium, and then bought a tube ticket, also with cash? That’s vastly more expensive.

Why wouldn’t you just use contactless? I can’t fathom this case at all.

I'm confused as well. The contactless total fare would have been about £3.20 each.

Cash singles just from Wembley stadium to Marylebone station seem to be £6.40 each, and that's not including the tube fare from Marylebone.

Whatever happens, remember for the future that contactless pay as you go is often vastly cheaper for journeys in and around London. No point throwing your money away!

 

[Starmill]

So you planned to purchase a ticket with cash at Wembley Stadium, and then bought a tube ticket, also with cash? That’s vastly more expensive.

Why wouldn’t you just use contactless? I can’t fathom this case at all.

Was the OP actually aware of the option to pay with contactless pay as you go? It's very far from obvious that this is the cheapest option, or even an option at all, if you start at Wembley Stadium and don't already know so. Also, do they both actually have compatible cards for contactless pay as you go?

I'm confused as well. The contactless total fare would have been about £3.20 each.

Cash singles just from Wembley stadium to Marylebone station seem to be £6.40 each, and that's not including the tube fare from Marylebone.

Whatever happens, remember for the future that contactless pay as you go is often vastly cheaper for journeys in and around London. No point throwing your money away!

There's no way to dispense a new Oyster card at Wembley Stadium though is there? So the only option to pay cash is to visit a nearby shop which offers Oyster ticket stop.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes cash at Wembley. It wasn’t a long trip so we just paid with cash.

I did have a card but it wasn’t contactless. None of my cards have contactless due to reasons

What proof do you have of your journey from Wembley Stadium? You mention this upthread but don’t say what it is. Is it a hotel confirmation?

Legally speaking you’re not required to prove your innocence (it’s for the prosecution to prove your guilt) but this may help your defence if, as you say, you can prove the journey commenced there.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

So you planned to purchase a ticket with cash at Wembley Stadium, and then bought a tube ticket, also with cash? That’s vastly more expensive.

Why wouldn’t you just use contactless? I can’t fathom this case at all.

This is an important point. From what we see here, a frequent approach of fare dodgers going to Marylebone is to claim that they got on at Wembley Stadium, and could they now buy a ticket. But as @AlterEgo says, it's much cheaper to use Oyster or contactless from Wembley Stadium to Marylebone than to use cash - and most people want to save money, so it's generally expected that legitimate passengers would have tapped in at Wembley Stadium rather than failing to buy a ticket with cash until they reached Marylebone.

I'm not suggesting that the OP was fare dodging - but what they did is exactly what a fare dodger would do. So you can see why Chiltern (and TIL, their agents) might interpret the OP's actions as being fare dodging.

That's why this is a very important suggestion:

Absent CCTV, I would recommend that you produce to the TOC the docs recording your stay in Wembley as evidence to corroborate your account of the journey.

Although it's for the prosecutor (i.e. TIL) to prove their case rather than for the OP to prove their innocence, it makes their task much more difficult if the OP can demonstrate that they were staying near Wembley Stadium. If you were in a hotel/airBnB/etc., that should be fairly easy - find the booking, receipt and so on. If you were staying with friends or family, you may have to get them to come to court with you to make a sworn statement that you were there (why not a written statement? Because the other side will say it's all too easy to get someone to write something which isn't true - but it's much more difficult to get someone to swear or affirm before the court and then tell the truth).

(edited to correct a typo)

 

[Sultan]

As well as offering hotel information that would corroborate your presence in the area you could always include details of how you got to be on holiday there (and if by train, which station you alighted from, such as Wembley Central which is much busier). It does seem a little odd (to me) that someone on holiday, unfamiliar with how tickets work in London, would choose to pay cash to travel to Marylebone rather than from Wembley Central direct into the heart of the centre of London, where most tourist attractions are.

I always research when I visit cities for the first time on the easiest way to get round, and also the easiest method of payment. You also say you don't use contactless as it's risky. Using cash is arguably riskier.

 

[Starmill]

As well as offering hotel information that would corroborate your presence in the area you could always include details of how you got to be on holiday there (and if by train, which station you alighted from, such as Wembley Central which is much busier). It does seem a little odd (to me) that someone on holiday, unfamiliar with how tickets work in London, would choose to pay cash to travel to Marylebone rather than from Wembley Central direct into the heart of the centre of London, where most tourist attractions are.

I always research when I visit cities for the first time on the easiest way to get round, and also the easiest method of payment. You also say you don't use contactless as it's risky. Using cash is arguably riskier.

If you're staying close to Wembley Stadium itself, the walk to Wembley Central could be approximately 25 minutes, rather than 5 minutes to Wembley Stadium.

 

[30907]

Sorry your first visit to London led to this.

It would help if you would upload redacted versions of all the correspondence (you say they have accused you of 3 different things) and any previous replies from you.

This would help us understand the situation more clearly. It has helped that we now know that you were heading to Marylebone.

Unfortunately I don't fancy your chances of in court, unless you are willing to engage a solicitor which would cost way more than the settlement offered.

If you agree to settle out of court I would then make a formal complaint about the behaviour of staff, specifically the lies. On its own it may do little, but it is just possible that someone has a track record of misconduct.

 

[SargeNpton]

If you're staying close to Wembley Stadium itself, the walk to Wembley Central could be approximately 25 minutes, rather than 5 minutes to Wembley Stadium.

That's immaterial to this subject though.