Super Off-Peak ticket denied at Euston on a Saturday (on a valid train)

[alistairlees]

We recently had a customer who possessed a Super Off-Peak Return (OPR) from London Euston (EUS) to Birmingham New Street (BHM), route "LNWR / WMT only" and priced at £25.00.

She intended to travel on the 10.49 from EUS to BHM on Saturday 29th February, but was denied entry at Euston. She said:

"Yes I was refused by the staff at Euston for travel as they said supper [sic] off peak can not be used on a Saturday and I had asked more the one member of staff! I actually asked 4 members of staff!"

So she went home again and did not travel.

Looking at the LNWR website I can find that it contradicts itself on this page:

Off-Peak & Super Off-Peak train tickets

Avoid weekday rush hours and go off-peak for travel throughout the day and evening, and at weekends.

www.londonnorthwesternrailway.co.uk

At the top it says:

There are two types: Off-Peak (valid for travel 7-days a week) and Super Off-Peak (valid for travel Monday to Thursday only).

Further down it says:

Ticket Type	Days	Route	Travel times to London	Travel times from London
Super Off- peak day single or return Super Off- Peak Travelcard	Monday- Saturday	To/from London	You can only use this ticket for arrival in London after 13.00	You can leave London on trains departing from 1030 but not between 1600 and 1900. On Saturdays customers travelling to stations between Nuneaton and Crewe can use the 1846 train from London

So it looks like the tickets were once valid for travel only on Mondays to Thursdays, but are now (since the January fares change?) valid for travel on all days of the week, but that LNWR have not managed to either update their website correctly or brief staff at Euston properly, resulting in a poor customer experience and reputational damage to retailers (for some reason ordinary members of the public assume that station staff know what they are talking about).

Am I correct in my thinking here?

 

[Hadders]

Very poor from the LNR staff at Euston.

The Monday-Thursday Super Off Peak tickets were withdrawn sometime last year iirc. I don't think they lasted as long as January.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Very poor from the LNR staff at Euston.

The Monday-Thursday Super Off Peak tickets were withdrawn sometime last year iirc. I don't think they lasted as long as January.

I don't recall having ever come across those. They must have been from before the 3-level structure was applied to (nearly) all flows.

A formal complaint needs to be made here and a refund given.

 

[Hadders]

There most definitely were tickets valid only on Monday to Thursdays. They were never available on MKC - EUS flows, I remember getting one from Euston to Witton on a Bank Holiday Monday when I spent some time walking canals around Birmingham.

 

[alistairlees]

There most definitely were tickets valid only on Monday to Thursdays. They were never available on MKC - EUS flows, I remember getting one from Euston to Witton on a Bank Holiday Monday when I spent some time walking canals around Birmingham.

Yes, thinking about it these were the Super Off-Peak (Monday to Thursday) tickets - product code MID, available on flows from Euston to the West Midlands (and vice versa). This product was set up by what was then London Midland in September 2014, and I assume went live from the January 2015 fares round. I have yet to find when it was discontinued - presumably sometime in 2019.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Must admit I'm surprised by this - I find the LNR Euston barrier staff quite good, they are worlds apart from the grossly incompetent and very visible subset of the VT/Avanti ones which appear on here with alarming frequency.

 

[paul1609]

Was her ticket refused by the ticket barriers?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Was her ticket refused by the ticket barriers?

I'm assuming that's likely. There has recently been an issue with LNR barriers rejecting valid Super Off Peaks which I doubt has been resolved, it certainly hadn't last time I used one.

 

[Hadders]

I think the Mon-Thurs tickets were withdrawn at the same time as the 3 tier structure came in across the LNR network. I can't remember if it was under London Midland or LNR's operation though.of the franchise though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 3 tier structure was the first fares change under LNR I believe, or maybe the second.

 

[alistairlees]

Was her ticket refused by the ticket barriers?

I don't know. She has not said it was. Even if it was, the fact that four members of staff, including spervisors, told her her ticket was not valid (when they could have looked it up at https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/lg) is most concerning.

 

[alistairlees]

Must admit I'm surprised by this - I find the LNR Euston barrier staff quite good, they are worlds apart from the grossly incompetent and very visible subset of the VT/Avanti ones which appear on here with alarming frequency.

We do not know if it was LNWR or other staff. Probably it was LNWR staff, but we cannot be certain. Customers generally just distinguish "staff" from "everyone else".

 

[paul1609]

We do not know if it was LNWR or other staff. Probably it was LNWR staff, but we cannot be certain. Customers generally just distinguish "staff" from "everyone else".

I usually go through there earlier on the saturday morning often the 08.46 I cant ever recall seeing more than 1 or 2 people on the barriers where you would go to find other LNR staff Ive no idea but Ive never had a ticket rejected either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We do not know if it was LNWR or other staff. Probably it was LNWR staff, but we cannot be certain. Customers generally just distinguish "staff" from "everyone else".

It's likely to have been. Gateline checks for LNR are only carried out on platforms 8-11, there are no boarding checks on any other platform except for occasional RPI checks which won't likely be happening at the moment. No Avanti staff are present at the 8-11 barriers as their trains never serve those platforms. Avanti are not allowed to carry out checks for LNR services.

 

[Starmill]

There's something deeply perplexing about the website suggesting that a Super Off Peak Return is only valid Monday to Thursday. There have been Super Off Peak Returns valid Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays for how many years on these services? A different, cheaper product was made available and then withdrawn during that time, but it's withdrawal was some time ago now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's something deeply perplexing about the website suggesting that a Super Off Peak Return is only valid Monday to Thursday. There have been Super Off Peak Returns valid Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays for how many years on these services? A different, cheaper product was made available and then withdrawn during that time, but it's withdrawal was some time ago now.

Given the level of competence displayed throughout LNR/WMT's operations, I think they have just, classically, stuffed it up. Never assume conspiracy...

I seem to recall the cycle policy is similarly half-wrong.

 

[hkstudent]

Do you all think a delay repay policy would be applicable as OP was delayed for 30 minutes+ ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you all think a delay repay policy would be applicable as OP was delayed for 30 minutes+ ?

No, because they didn't travel.

 

[Starmill]

No, because they didn't travel.

Indeed. Unless something is not as it seems here the only way for WMT to resolve this really would be to give the passenger a free ticket... which is now essentially useless anyway for potentially a very long time. And that's only if they were willing to give one out.

Unless of course the other portion of the ticket was also unused, in which case presumably the whole ticket has already been refunded, making the point a little academic.

Not a dramatically fair outcome either given that whomever sold the ticket would have to bear the administration cost of transaction and refund, and because of the mistake, without earning any commission to cover it.

 

[hkstudent]

Indeed. Unless something is not as it seems here the only way for WMT to resolve this really would be to give the passenger a free ticket... which is now essentially useless anyway for potentially a very long time. And that's only if they were willing to give one out.

Unless of course the other portion of the ticket was also unused, in which case presumably the whole ticket has already been refunded, making the point a little academic.

Not a dramatically fair outcome either given that whomever sold the ticket would have to bear the administration cost of transaction and refund, and because of the mistake, without earning any commission to cover it.

But would the OP be having a chance of successfully refunding the ticket as the train was not cancelled / delayed?

 

[Andy Pacer]

But would the OP be having a chance of successfully refunding the ticket as the train was not cancelled / delayed?

If it was on the basis of poor/incorrect advice/instruction from barrier staff then I'd hope so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you go to the booking office at the same station you bought it on the same day they will normally "non-issue" it without a fee.

Sometimes it can be another station of the same TOC due to how their systems work - Euston LM booking office preferred to non-issue a ticket I'd already used and issue a new one than to do an overdistance excess!

 

[alistairlees]

I feel I should update this thread a little bit.

LNWR have now updated the website: https://www.londonnorthwesternrailway.co.uk/tickets-fares/offpeak-tickets no longer incorrectly states that Super Off-Peak tickets are "valid Mondays to Thursdays". The restrictions were actually changed over a year ago, so LNWR have also said they will remind staff of the correct restrictions.

The ticket was retailed by TrainGenius. We refunded the customer for the cost of the ticket (no refund admin fee, obviously) and also made a goodwill gesture (a little less than £10) to cover the cost of her fruitless travel to and from Euston.

As @Starmill observed, we received no commission, but retained the payment and fulfilment costs, as well as having considerable customer service time spent on investigating this, in addition to the goodwill gesture I mentioned above. So a loss of at least £25 on this.

All because of two errors (website and multiple members of staff) by another organisation.

 

[gray1404]

LNW need to be compensating too here. I'd suggest Rail Travel Vouchers for £50 would be a starting point.

 

[yorkie]

I'm aware of dozens of similar cases, with a wide range of train companies.

Sadly most train companies have no safeguards on place to avoid a breach of contract occuring.

Some train companies have responded very well when such instances occured, while others have been appalling.

I would always advice passengers buy tickets from retailers who will put in the effort to support them in such cases. Clearly TrainGenius is such a retailer, and I know Trainsplit also has representatives in this forum and they will put a similar effort in too.

As I said in another thread, the only way to guarantee a ticket being accepted is to buy an Anytime fare routed Any permitted!

Train companies who incorrectly charge additional fares and / or reject valid tickets are acting unlawfully. Unfortunately it's not easy for us to do much about it as it would be costly to bring train companies to justice. It's not a level playing field.

 

[Hadders]

I feel I should update this thread a little bit.

LNWR have now updated the website: https://www.londonnorthwesternrailway.co.uk/tickets-fares/offpeak-tickets no longer incorrectly states that Super Off-Peak tickets are "valid Mondays to Thursdays". The restrictions were actually changed over a year ago, so LNWR have also said they will remind staff of the correct restrictions.

The ticket was retailed by TrainGenius. We refunded the customer for the cost of the ticket (no refund admin fee, obviously) and also made a goodwill gesture (a little less than £10) to cover the cost of her fruitless travel to and from Euston.

As @Starmill observed, we received no commission, but retained the payment and fulfilment costs, as well as having considerable customer service time spent on investigating this, in addition to the goodwill gesture I mentioned above. So a loss of at least £25 on this.

All because of two errors (website and multiple members of staff) by another organisation.

I know it's not a huge amount but LNR really should compensate TrainGenius for their costs in dealing with this.

 

[infobleep]

I feel I should update this thread a little bit.

LNWR have now updated the website: https://www.londonnorthwesternrailway.co.uk/tickets-fares/offpeak-tickets no longer incorrectly states that Super Off-Peak tickets are "valid Mondays to Thursdays". The restrictions were actually changed over a year ago, so LNWR have also said they will remind staff of the correct restrictions.

The ticket was retailed by TrainGenius. We refunded the customer for the cost of the ticket (no refund admin fee, obviously) and also made a goodwill gesture (a little less than £10) to cover the cost of her fruitless travel to and from Euston.

As @Starmill observed, we received no commission, but retained the payment and fulfilment costs, as well as having considerable customer service time spent on investigating this, in addition to the goodwill gesture I mentioned above. So a loss of at least £25 on this.

All because of two errors (website and multiple members of staff) by another organisation.

They probably don't care as it's your costs and not their's or am I being too cynical here