Super off peak ticket validity: Bristol to Newcastle route: +Any Permitted

[Zebsmattz]

Hi,

I am on the following slightly odd route:
Bristol Parkway - 15:32
London Paddington - 17:07
London Kings X - 18:00
Newcastle - 20:47

(the reason for the "via London" bit is I find Cross Country trains rather slow and unreliable)

I bought a Super off peak return using Virgin trains website, and have seats reserved for the above train times.

Anyhow I was initially stopped at Kings X because I have a super off peak ticket, which the chap said was only valid after 7pm.
But then he spoke with his supervisor and said it was all OK.
He said something about network areas being right next to each other, which I completely did not understand.
I checked with the train guard before boarding and he was happy for me to travel.
Then I got on the train and they announced super off peak tickets will not be valid.
Eeeek!

Any ideas what's going on here please?
What are the rules for super off peak travel?

Cheers,

Zebs

 

[roversfan2001]

As far as I can see restriction code 5A (the one carried by the Super Off-Peak Single) has no restrictions on travel out of Kings Cross.

 

[mildertduck]

East Coast super offpeak tickets (i.e. LondonKX to ...) will have a different restriction codes to a Bristol to ... ticket, in all likelyhood. You will be fine, ESPECIALLY if you have a reservation.

 

[Zebsmattz]

Thanks for the replies.

I can see the "5A" code printed on the ticket, thanks for pointing that out.
Not sure what the guy who almost stopped me was on about then.

I was going to ask about whether different origin stations meant different restriction codes, it sounds like that is the case.

The train guard has just checked my ticket - same bloke I asked before boarding - and he is still happy! It's all good.

Thanks again,

Zebs

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

You should be OK.
Assuming you have bought the Super Saver Return (SSR) at £195.60 it has restriction 5A (if the restriction is other than 5A what follows doesn't apply).
This has peak restrictions into and out of Paddington, but none at all in/out of King's Cross.
The reason the 1800 was announced as a Peak train, was that if you were on a much more common Newcastle-King's Cross SSR it carries restriction 1L and can't be used out of King's Cross between 1500 and 1900.

Beware you can't use your return ticket out of Paddington between 1500 and 1900.
The NRE site will give you the detailed restriction information.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket_types/restrictions/5A

 

[najaB]

Not sure what the guy who almost stopped me was on about then.

Many London Terminals to points north (Super) Off Peak tickets have evening restrictions out of Kings Cross. He probably thought your ticket had the same restriction.

 

[furlong]

Hi,
Anyhow I was initially stopped at Kings X because I have a super off peak ticket, which the chap said was only valid after 7pm.
But then he spoke with his supervisor and said it was all OK.
He said something about network areas being right next to each other, which I completely did not understand.

It's known as the Network Area rule. Long distance journeys through London take restrictions EITHER between the origin and London OR between London and the destination - not both (which would leave some journeys difficult or impossible). Your ticket origin Bristol is outside the Network Railcard area and takes restrictions between Bristol and London leaving the London to Newcastle part unrestricted.

 

[Zebsmattz]

Thanks again for all that info.

The return journey departs Paddington at 18:45, which is slightly concerning!
(again I have a seat reservation)

Can I assume/hope that the restriction on the return journey is on the Newcastle -> KingsX section, not the Paddington -> Bristol section ?

 

[furlong]

Thanks again for all that info.

The return journey departs Paddington at 18:45, which is slightly concerning!
(again I have a seat reservation)

Can I assume/hope that the restriction on the return journey is on the Newcastle -> KingsX section, not the Paddington -> Bristol section ?

It remains on the Paddington to Bristol section - not before 19:00.

If you have a seat reservation issued alongside the ticket, you could take that as forming an essential part of the contract and overriding the 5A restriction code but it sounds like a mistake.

 

[furlong]

Are you sure it's a Super Off-Peak Return and not 2 x Super Off-Peak Singles?

A Super Off-Peak single from Newcastle to Bristol would only be restricted between Newcastle and London.

 

[najaB]

If you have a seat reservation issued alongside the ticket, you could take that as forming an essential part of the contract and overriding the 5A restriction code but it sounds like a mistake.

I agree - a reservation produced alongside the ticket overrides any restriction, IMO.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Restrictions only apply Monday-Friday, none at weekends.

 

[Zebsmattz]

Thanks again.

Sounds like some more "fun" instore on the way back?
It definitely says super off peak return on the tickets.

Here are the details with my seats removed for a bit of privacy ;]

I know its a slightly loopy route but even with the changes across London, it only takes 30 mins more than the direct Cross Country way. And I get a break for some food at Kings X rather than a 5 hour continuous journey.




Journey 1: Bristol Parkway to Newcastle

Outward Journey
Bristol Parkway to Newcastle on 30 May 2017

Departs: Bristol Parkway at 15:32
Train Operator: Great Western Railway
Arrives: London Paddington at 17:07
Seats Reserved: Coach: E Seats: XX
Departs: London Paddington at 17:22 by Underground
Arrives: London Kings Cross at 17:37 by Underground
Departs: London Kings Cross at 18:00
Train Operator: Virgin Trains East Coast
Arrives: Newcastle at 20:47
Seats Reserved: Coach: B Seats: XX
Ticket Type: Super Off-Peak Return
Route: Travel is allowed via any permitted route.
Key Terms and Conditions: Valid on off-peak services by the route shown. Return travel any day within 1 month.



Return Journey
Newcastle to Bristol Parkway on 1 Jun 2017

Departs: Newcastle at 15:00
Train Operator: Virgin Trains East Coast
Arrives: London Kings Cross at 17:53
Seats Reserved: Coach: E Seats: XX
Departs: London Kings Cross at 18:08 by Underground
Arrives: London Paddington at 18:23 by Underground
Departs: London Paddington at 18:45
Train Operator: Great Western Railway
Arrives: Bristol Parkway at 20:04
Seats Reserved: Coach: B Seats: XX
Ticket Type: Super Off-Peak Return
Route: Travel is allowed via any permitted route.
Key Terms and Conditions: Valid on off-peak services by the route shown. Return travel any day within 1 month.

 

[MichaelAMW]

It's known as the Network Area rule. Long distance journeys through London take restrictions EITHER between the origin and London OR between London and the destination - not both (which would leave some journeys difficult or impossible). Your ticket origin Bristol is outside the Network Railcard area and takes restrictions between Bristol and London leaving the London to Newcastle part unrestricted.

Is that the Network Area rule? I thought that is the rule that says tickets via London from stations in the former Network Southeast area via London to destinations outside the area only take the restrictions from/to the London terminus of the long-distance part. I think the exception is HS1 services, which do have a peak restriction.

That said, whether I am right or wrong, you are mostly right. There is a general rule that says:

"Off-Peak tickets for journeys starting outside the Network Area for travel via London use restrictions from the origin station to London and return. Unless shown otherwise, they are unrestricted between London and the destination station, and return."

However, whilst I believe that was totally complied with at privatisation it doesn't always seem to be the case now. In particular, there are via London fares to the Midland Mainline and the WCML that seem to have double restrictions: the published restriction only mentions the "from London" leg of the journey but the journey planners actually restrict both halves; this is borne out by the "unpublished restrictions" information that can be found on BRFares.com. This leads to the very problem you mention, that of some journeys actually being quite difficult to complete.

 

[furlong]

Here are the details with my seats removed for a bit of privacy ;]

Do your tickets have a restriction code like 5A or 1L printed on them?

 

[Zebsmattz]

Both tickets have restriction code 5A

Hmmm this is a bit odd
I just tried booking the same journey again on Virgins website.
I tried dates 31/05 -> 01/06
I have to choose 2 singles to get those times, which I do remember doing when I booked.
But then when I add to my basket it changes it into a super off peak return.
Obviously I didn't know there was any difference...

 

[furlong]

What's confusing is that the Virgin website does offer 2x Singles at the same price as the return, and shows the different restrictions - it only offers me the 18:45 on the 2x Single, not the return. But I'm wondering if it actually issues that option as a return.

 

[Zebsmattz]

Yep, that's what it's done
How do i explain this to the guy on the return train! Crikey

 

[furlong]

OK - so it sounds like an error in the design and implementation of these 'Half' tickets.

You actually purchased 2 singles - one with 5A and one with 1L - but the website has converted them into a return then printed 5A on both halves.

So you should consider your return half as subject to restriction 1L because that's what the website actually applied to it when allowing the reservation and forming the contract.

 

[sheff1]

Firstly, it is not an odd route. That would be the way I would go if doing that journey.

Secondly, as already stated, a ticket with code 5A is not valid on the 1845 from Paddington, but if you have a reservation on that train issued at the same time as you bought the ticket then that must be part of the contract and hence you should be allowed to travel.

If challenged on the 1845, do not mention the ticket restriction code as doing so would only highlight that you were aware of the restriction. Instead just refer to the itinerary on your confirmation email and the seat reservation and leave it at that.

 

[furlong]

Yep, that's what it's done
How do i explain this to the guy on the return train! Crikey

By simply referring to the fact you were issued with a reservation for this itinerary at the time of purchase and therefore you consider it forms part of the contract. (If they think there was a mistake that's an internal railway matter they can pursue with the issuer of the tickets.)

You told the website you wanted to travel on those particular trains, you were quoted that price for that specific journey and the contract was agreed between both sides on that basis.

 

[Zebsmattz]

Thanks for the support on my choice of route - the Cross country felt like such a slog, and most trains are rammed full as they only have 4 carriages 8[.
This East Coast one is flying along, there is enough room for everyone and it was much easier to get a table to work.

Some follow up thoughts:
1. Do you chaps think it's worth explaining the situation to the people in Newcastle and getting a 1L return ticket issued as a replacement?
2. Do I need to report this problem to Virgin so they can fix their website?
3. Next time I book, maybe I should buy each half as a separate journey? (if that's allowed)

Cheers,

Zebs

 

[furlong]

The question about these 'Half' tickets is whether they should both take the same restriction code as the return according to the direction of travel or whether they should indeed take separate codes in each direction. I would guess they've been issued as a return to make it clear the two halves can't be refunded separately.

 

[sheff1]

Thanks for the support on my choice of route - the Cross country felt like such a slog, and most trains are rammed full as they only have 4 carriages 8[.
This East Coast one is flying along, there is enough room for everyone and it was much easier to get a table to work.

Some follow up thoughts:
1. Do you chaps think it's worth explaining the situation to the people in Newcastle and getting a 1L return ticket issued as a replacement?
2. Do I need to report this problem to Virgin so they can fix their website?
3. Next time I book, maybe I should buy each half as a separate journey? (if that's allowed)

I would not overthink the matter. You have a ticket and an itinerary which should be more than adequate.

1) Explaining at Newcastle is only likely to cause confusion.
2) If you encounter any problems on the journey then yes, report the problem to Virgin. If you do not then, in my view, it is not worth the time.
3) If you can, yes. But I am not sure it is possible.

 

[Zebsmattz]

Sounds sensible
As you suggest I'll plead ignorance if questioned on the way back and wave my seat reservation at them, hopefully that will do it.

Complete random aside: I got free wifi in standard class on the Virgin train too, which was nice - and it worked.
Cross Country seems like a step down from Virgin East Coast.

 

[Haywain]

Is that the Network Area rule? I thought that is the rule that says tickets via London from stations in the former Network Southeast area via London to destinations outside the area only take the restrictions from/to the London terminus of the long-distance part. I think the exception is HS1 services, which do have a peak restriction.

That said, whether I am right or wrong, you are mostly right. There is a general rule that says:

"Off-Peak tickets for journeys starting outside the Network Area for travel via London use restrictions from the origin station to London and return. Unless shown otherwise, they are unrestricted between London and the destination station, and return."

However, whilst I believe that was totally complied with at privatisation it doesn't always seem to be the case now. In particular, there are via London fares to the Midland Mainline and the WCML that seem to have double restrictions: the published restriction only mentions the "from London" leg of the journey but the journey planners actually restrict both halves; this is borne out by the "unpublished restrictions" information that can be found on BRFares.com. This leads to the very problem you mention, that of some journeys actually being quite difficult to complete.

Technically, the area concerned is the Network Railcard area which has the advantage of still being a current area rather than something stranded in the past. As for double restrictions, these do not apply but journey planners seem to fail to take account of the Network area rule if the unrestricted part of the journey is into a station which is named in the restriction code text. A certain well-known ticket splitting website has the same problem!

 

[najaB]

I would not overthink the matter. You have a ticket and an itinerary which should be more than adequate.

I concur with this assessment. Ticket + reservation = contract.

 

[Wallsendmag]

When did you buy your tickets?


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[Zebsmattz]

A couple of weeks ago, why do you ask?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Just wondering if the the fares changeover last week may have confused it .Handily the VTEC pricing manager is on the train this morning so he had a look at it and the VTEC WebTIS handled it correctly. Where did you buy your ticket?


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