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Supermarkets discussion

Xenophon PCDGS

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My local Morrisons and Tesco both have plenty of staffed checkouts that are never used as they only have a couple open, I'd rather they rip the majority out as they aren't used anyway and replace with another bank of self checkouts for those of us who aren't afraid of technology.
That is somewhat heartless considering that there are people with certain medical infirmities who are helped by the chckout operator (some who also pack) and those people of all ages who do not easily adapt to technology owing to problems of cognitive understanding, who still want to live a somewhat normal life.
 
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jfollows

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I take objection to the implication that people who don't like or won't use self-checkouts are afraid of technology.
Agreed, I hate self-checkouts because they are irritating, cumbersome, confusing & slow but they work for some people, that’s fine. It’s not about technology per se, it’s about its implementation. I was once in the machine room of the - then - largest supercomputer in the UK for which I had been responsible for design & implementation and someone asked me a question about his mobile phone. I said something like “I haven’t a clue, sorry, but ask me anything you want about this supercomputer and I’m sure I’ll be able to give you an answer.” And, no, mobile phones did not interfere with the computers.
 

jon81uk

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Even if cash is accepted the problem is when the networked tills go down, no payment of any sort can be accepted. My main issue with the move to a cashless society is the inevitable creep of card surcharges that get introduced. I live in Australia now which is further down the cashless road than the UK. Two years ago the addition of card surcharges by retailers was definitely unusual. Now the vast majority of retailers apply a card surcharge, and many business owners are encouraging people to pay by cash to avoid them.

The EU made it illegal to charge credit card surchages and the UK has kept that, the EU also put a cap on the fee banks can charge for credit card processing. But also for many businesses the cost of insurance and staff time for cash processing is higher than the card fees.

I buy loose produce (to avoid unnecessary plastic wrapping) and the checkout operators can weigh it, and crucially, find the right category on their screen, much faster than I can
Sainsbury's had scales in the produce area that automatically work out what the item is using a camera. As I use scan as you go round I weigh on those scales.
 

jfollows

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Is that something once said years ago in hospitals about their electronic equipment?
I believe the problem always was that nobody with credentials could be found who would say that there was absolutely no chance of this happening, although it seemed highly unlikely, and therefore the "voice of caution" said "just in case" because of course the "just in case" could mean that someone died. Our computer was not so critical, so we took the balance of probabilities.
Eventually people in hospitals twigged that >50% of people inside hospitals had active mobile phones anyway and nothing untoward happened, so the ban was generally dropped.
 

Peter Sarf

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My local Morrisons and Tesco both have plenty of staffed checkouts that are never used as they only have a couple open, I'd rather they rip the majority out as they aren't used anyway and replace with another bank of self checkouts for those of us who aren't afraid of technology.
My bold - Well that is a rather patronising generalisation.

For me it is the "error in bagging area" that wastes my time plus the need for a member of staff to authorise certain transactions (example alcohol) both seamless on a manned till.

The "error in bagging area" comes up when the weight of the just scanned item is not right. For small things I have succeeded by replacing the item with my mobile, keys or coins, or supplementing it with a coin or two. Just has to be something a little heavier/lighter. For big items I find slamming it down or briefly pressing it down or placing it very gently registers it differently but more usefully using a different end of the weighing table/area can work. On a four pack of beans I had to remove the cardboard wrapper - its guess work. Often end up requiring a (overstretched) human.

There is a small Sainsburys near me I avoid because there are so few staff. When its a wine bottle the lone and under aged staff member on duty has to go get the manager to authorise it - takes an age. Happened too often and I now notice there is a security guard on the door when I pass - but then this is Croydon !.

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Is that something once said years ago in hospitals about their electronic equipment?
I did notice things like HiFi picked up interference from mobile phones when a call was in process or other odd times (probably periodically when the mobile calls out to see which cell sites are in range and let the cell site or network locate it).
 

skyhigh

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For me it is the "error in bagging area" that wastes my time plus the need for a member of staff to authorise certain transactions (example alcohol) both seamless on a manned till.
I'm sure a supermarket (Sainsbury's maybe?) has recently signed a deal to trial an image recognition system on the self checkouts to try and reduce erroneous bagging approvals and approximate age so that approval isn't needed for restricted purchases if it thinks you're old enough.

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From an earlier Asda trial last year:
Asda has announced it will be the first supermarket to trial an automated age verification solution at self-checkouts which aims to make it easier and quicker for customers using this facility.

From this week, customers in Asda’s Pudsey and Stevenage stores can use privacy preserving age estimation technology when purchasing alcohol, which works via a camera in the self-checkout screen to accurately estimate a customer’s age.

The initiative is part of a Home Office test to allow the trial of technologies that can assist in the requirement for age verification in the retail sale of alcohol.

Shoppers purchasing alcohol can simply look at a camera to verify their age before completing their purchase. If the system detects a customer looks younger than 25, they can prove their age through the Yoti and Post Office EasyID apps.

Those who do not wish to use the digital system at the self-checkouts have the option to show their ID to an Asda colleague who will be on hand to help.
 

Buzby

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so the ban was generally dropped.
A recent visit to a Glasgow hospital revealed prohibition signs outside ICU requiring mobiles to be turned off or left outside the Dept in lockers. Let’s not forget that ‘Ward Phones’ were outsourced to private firms who supplied bedside entertainment systems. Staff were meant to police the use of mobiles to prevent ‘revenue leakage’ from the contractor who took a cut of incoming call revenue and sold 24hr ‘passes’ to make calls.
 

Peter Sarf

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Agreed.

I always use the staffed checkouts because I want to keep the people in their jobs.
This is a thought I have had.

It is an example of saving on cost but risks ending up paying more in taxes to keep someone on benefits. Risk it breeds complacency BUT keeping someone gainfully employed keeps them out of trouble.
 

gg1

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You can purchase loose produce through a self checkout, I do it nearly every time I do a food shop.

Regarding your second point, I get that and think there should always be a couple of manned tills, but these days the priority should rightly be self checkouts, those of us who work full time and have busy family lives want to be in and out of a supermarket as quickly as possible.

I find there is more room for error with manned checkouts too, at least with self checkouts I can keep an eye on what is happening, I can't accidently scan something twice and I know I'm scanning the right barcode if something has a yellow reduced sticker on, both of which I've had to point out when I've used a manned checkout recently.
I too want to be in and out of a supermarket as quickly as possible which is exactly why I don't use self service checkouts for anything other than the smallest of shops (ie small enough I can use a small basket and fill no more than a couple of bags). No chance of 'unexpected item in bagging area' messages with a manned checkout.

I'm talking specifically about the older style self service checkouts where you do everything at the end of the shop, not the more modern variant where you scan and bag as you walk around the store then pay at the end, I'm a big fan of the latter and choose it ahead of a manned checkout.
 

takno

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I'm sure a supermarket (Sainsbury's maybe?) has recently signed a deal to trial an image recognition system on the self checkouts to try and reduce erroneous bagging approvals and approximate age so that approval isn't needed for restricted purchases if it thinks you're old enough.

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From an earlier Asda trial last year:

That'll be another of those schemes where the AI probably turns out to be a room full of people in the third world staring at a video feed all day.

It's presumably cheaper than staff on the ground. On the other hand I did notice a guy the other day shopping for an entire shelf of confectionery. He was in such a rush that he forgot to pay entirely, and even took the wire basket rather than packing it into 30p plastic bags. I'm sure he'll be terribly embarrassed when he realises his mistake, but it does feel like this happens often enough now that the savings on checkout staffing might end up being less of a bonanza than they think.
 

jon81uk

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I always use the staffed checkouts because I want to keep the people in their jobs.

Its unlikely to result in more people being kept in jobs. As discussed many stores have reduced the number of staffed checkout from 8-10 to 4-6 or similar, so the maximum number of staff possible is reduced. Also they generally won't be firing anyone or making them redundant, just recruiting fewer people, or using existing staff in different ways. So instead of previously having ten staffed checkouts, of which four might be open, they might now have two staffed checkouts and two staff looking after ten self-checkouts. So same number of staff but significantly more available checkout areas.

I'm talking specifically about the older style self service checkouts where you do everything at the end of the shop, not the more modern variant where you scan and bag as you walk around the store then pay at the end, I'm a big fan of the latter and choose it ahead of a manned checkout.
I used scan as you go round in Safeway in 1995. Its not particularly modern. Safeway only scrapped it when the rechargable batteries reached end of life and they didn't feel it was worth investing in new ones. But other stores then started offering it with more modern handsets in the 2000s, pre-dating self-checkouts in many areas.

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That'll be another of those schemes where the AI probably turns out to be a room full of people in the third world staring at a video feed all day.
The Amazon Go wasn't exactly that, they just verify the errors, but it was about 700 of every thousand needing human moderation. Its more likely with the age verification that if it can't produce a conclusive answer then it calls a human over in store.
It's presumably cheaper than staff on the ground. On the other hand I did notice a guy the other day shopping for an entire shelf of confectionery. He was in such a rush that he forgot to pay entirely, and even took the wire basket rather than packing it into 30p plastic bags. I'm sure he'll be terribly embarrassed when he realises his mistake, but it does feel like this happens often enough now that the savings on checkout staffing might end up being less of a bonanza than they think.
and this is why many stores now have the one-way gates at the entrance and need to scan the receipt to exit.
 

gg1

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I used scan as you go round in Safeway in 1995. Its not particularly modern. Safeway only scrapped it when the rechargable batteries reached end of life and they didn't feel it was worth investing in new ones. But other stores then started offering it with more modern handsets in the 2000s, pre-dating self-checkouts in many areas.
Really, didn't realise it'd been around that long?

I know Tesco and Asda both had self service checkouts for a while before introducing scan and go, not sure when Sainsburys introduced them. Morrisons still doesn't have it (or at least my local one didn't when I last went there a few months ago).
 

Belperpete

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A recent visit to a Glasgow hospital revealed prohibition signs outside ICU requiring mobiles to be turned off or left outside the Dept in lockers. Let’s not forget that ‘Ward Phones’ were outsourced to private firms who supplied bedside entertainment systems. Staff were meant to police the use of mobiles to prevent ‘revenue leakage’ from the contractor who took a cut of incoming call revenue and sold 24hr ‘passes’ to make calls.
At my local hospital, mobile phones don't work in A&E and ICU. Not sure if it is due to the building construction or if they have deliberately put jammers in.

I believe that the ban on using mobile phones around critical electronic equipment dates back to the early first generation "brick" mobiles, which put out quite a powerful signal. Certainly there was a ban on using mobile phones in equipment rooms containing SSI equipment.
 

jon81uk

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Really, didn't realise it'd been around that long?

I know Tesco and Asda both had self service checkouts for a while before introducing scan and go, not sure when Sainsburys introduced them. Morrisons still doesn't have it (or at least my local one didn't when I last went there a few months ago).
The orignal Safeway system in the early 90s even had special Greenbox crates for customers to pack directly into.
Then Waitrose had special jute bags in the early 2000s for their Quick Check customers to scan and pack into.

This was all when plastic bags were still free of course!
 

Meole

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Some self checkouts are enabled to allow remote authorisation of age for alcohol rather than have worker come to the till, presumably based on a visual from their monitor, seems a useful feature.
The German shops don't seem to have a monitor machine on their self service and I have found that some rely on the service till operator next to the self area to leave the till temporarily, with a waiting customer, to resolve a self service issue and then pop back, maybe they pay more for flexibility.
 

jon81uk

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Some self checkouts are enabled to allow remote authorisation of age for alcohol rather than have worker come to the till, presumably based on a visual from their monitor, seems a useful feature.
The German shops don't seem to have a monitor machine on their self service and I have found that some rely on the service till operator next to the self area to leave the till temporarily, with a waiting customer, to resolve a self service issue and then pop back, maybe they pay more for flexibility.
Waitrose don't have a remote control for the self-checkouts either. Tesco definitly does, especially in the Express stores
 

skyhigh

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Morrisons still doesn't have it
It suddenly appeared at ours about a week ago. The self checkouts were replaced and new gates you need to scan your receipt to exit were installed a couple of weeks before the scan and go appeared.
 

Lewisham2221

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Agreed.

I always use the staffed checkouts because I want to keep the people in their jobs.
Are there any figures anywhere which show the number of supermarket employees made redundant as a direct result of self-checkouts being installed? My local supermarkets always seem to be advertising for home delivery drivers and staff to pick the home delivery/click & collect orders, so it doesn't seem like employment opportunities are in short supply.

That'll be another of those schemes where the AI probably turns out to be a room full of people in the third world staring at a video feed all day.

It's presumably cheaper than staff on the ground. On the other hand I did notice a guy the other day shopping for an entire shelf of confectionery. He was in such a rush that he forgot to pay entirely, and even took the wire basket rather than packing it into 30p plastic bags. I'm sure he'll be terribly embarrassed when he realises his mistake, but it does feel like this happens often enough now that the savings on checkout staffing might end up being less of a bonanza than they think.
Shoplifting was very much a thing before self-checkouts were, and is still very much a thing today in shops which don't have self-checkouts. To attempt to correlate the two is nonsense.
 

AM9

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This is a thought I have had.

It is an example of saving on cost but risks ending up paying more in taxes to keep someone on benefits. Risk it breeds complacency BUT keeping someone gainfully employed keeps them out of trouble.
It's not uncommon for such comments, - usually directed at those who don't/can't use electronic payments or tickets and want what is convenient to themselves mandated for all. Soch comments are worthless and consequently ignored by most others.
 

Russel

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Are there any figures anywhere which show the number of supermarket employees made redundant as a direct result of self-checkouts being installed? My local supermarkets always seem to be advertising for home delivery drivers and staff to pick the home delivery/click & collect orders, so it doesn't seem like employment opportunities are in short supply.

This is another one of those nonsense reasons for not using self checkouts, no one is being made redundant because of them, shopping habits change and the till staff displaced end up doing other roles such as, as you say, home delivery driving, or click and collect picking...

Regarding the 'unexpected item in bagging area' comments posted here, that seems to be a thing of the past, I've just ran a full trolley through the left checkout in my local Asda and encountered no issues at all.
 

AM9

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This is another one of those nonsense reasons for not using self checkouts, no one is being made redundant because of them, shopping habits change and the till staff displaced end up doing other roles such as, as you say, home delivery driving, or click and collect picking...
Do you have evidence of this?
 

AM9

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Of course not.

Do you have evidence that the installation of self checkouts has resulted directly in the loss of someone's job?
I didn't claim or even imply that there was a connection. Try somebody else.
 

Busaholic

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I don't think it's fair or correct to label those of us who prefer staffed checkouts as being "afraid of technology", in fact it's verging on insulting.

I use staffed checkouts (a) because I buy loose produce (to avoid unnecessary plastic wrapping) and the checkout operators can weigh it, and crucially, find the right category on their screen, much faster than I can; and (b) because I often have a pleasant but quite unplanned conversation with the operator, or with the customer in front of or behind me. As a retired person living alone, that's a worthwhile benefit to me. Why should I be considered "afraid" because I prefer that?
Well said. In addition to the reasons you list, there are the obvious ones like waiting for alcohol and pharmaceutical products to be 'approved', and security devices to be removed where necessary, now expanding to a significant number of products. Also, as a subscriber to two print newspapers with paper vouchers to exchange, the procedure at self-checkouts can be frustrating, particularly at Sainsbury's which now never seems to allow it without staff intervention, often done by a clueless individual. So, if I've got more than half a dozen items and unless the staffed checkout queues are long I tend to use those.
 

Donny Dave

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Busaholic

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The orignal Safeway system in the early 90s even had special Greenbox crates for customers to pack directly into.
Then Waitrose had special jute bags in the early 2000s for their Quick Check customers to scan and pack into.

This was all when plastic bags were still free of course!
Ah, Safeway. I remember their introduction in the late 1960s and the one opposite Bromley South Station which happened to be about 300 yards from the family home, and also opposite an equally large (for the era) Tesco. They were definitely a cut above the quality of Tesco and carried much more of what were then quite exotic foodstuffs like avacado pears. I always much preferred them to the competition and was, on the whole, sad to see them go.
 

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