Supposed Euston - Glasgow sleeper summer 1991, identification of formation

[USRailFan]

Photo from Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/60539...K4ghe-2gnTFjB-2jNBy1Y-2oucPyG-2jnj87d-2kz8N3V
Supposedly the Euston - Glasgow Central sleeper in July 1991. Formation looks kinda weird though, there are definitely two, possibly three, GUVs behind the 86, and then what looks like a bunch of Mk1s? Seems strange for a sleeper train of this era, where apart from posslbly a Mk1 BG there's be AC Mk2 seating and Mk3 sleepers...

 

[randyrippley]

Is it a motorail set that got reversed at Preston by going up the Settle-Carlisle?

 

[USRailFan]

Is it a motorail set that got reversed at Preston by going up the Settle-Carlisle?

Were there pure motorail trains as late as the summer of 1991 though?

 

[Dr Hoo]

There were Motorail portions on several Scottish sleepers. These inevitably required a considerable amount of shunting around at various places, station pilot engines, release locomotives and so on.

 

[randyrippley]

Were there pure motorail trains as late as the summer of 1991 though?

Yes, normally with a couple of GUVs at the rear.
Later on they used standard mk3+DVT sets with GUVs attached on the rear, with the loco sandwiched southbound

 

[Helvellyn]

Only the first two vehicles are Motorail vans (the GUVs). The next five are Mark 1 BGs, which for an InterCity service is a heck of a lot of vans! It's then air-con Mark 2s and by then the Mark 2D TSOs converted from FOs were being used on West Coast Sleepers for seating accommodation although hard to tell if that's what they are. It's the five BGs that are puzzling.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

That's the Clansman isn't it? There's a video on YT taken at New Street in 1989 at the rake was extremely mixed like that one, with mail vans at the front

 

[USRailFan]

That's the Clansman isn't it? There's a video on YT taken at New Street in 1989 at the rake was extremely mixed like that one, with mail vans at the front

Wasn't Clansman a day train? The caption on Flickr says it's the Euston - GC sleeper

Only the first two vehicles are Motorail vans (the GUVs). The next five are Mark 1 BGs, which for an InterCity service is a heck of a lot of vans! It's then air-con Mark 2s and by then the Mark 2D TSOs converted from FOs were being used on West Coast Sleepers for seating accommodation although hard to tell if that's what they are. It's the five BGs that are puzzling.

Yes, it's the number of BGs that confuse me too, surely the Euston - GC Sleeper wouldn't need more than 1 BG? AFAIK the sleeping car block was a total of 10 cars at this point - 3 sleepers, lounge and 6 sleepers - and with the max length of night trains being 16 cars AFAIK, there'd not be room for any other cars (they'd even have to remove one sleeper to fit those BGs...)

 

[randyrippley]

That's the Clansman isn't it? There's a video on YT taken at New Street in 1989 at the rake was extremely mixed like that one, with mail vans at the front

not at ~5am, Clansman left Birmingham around 12:30

Only the first two vehicles are Motorail vans (the GUVs). The next five are Mark 1 BGs, which for an InterCity service is a heck of a lot of vans! It's then air-con Mark 2s and by then the Mark 2D TSOs converted from FOs were being used on West Coast Sleepers for seating accommodation although hard to tell if that's what they are. It's the five BGs that are puzzling.

Are you sure its five BGs? Looks like three to me. Though you've probably got the better eyesight!

 

[USRailFan]

not at ~5am, Clansman left Birmingham around 12:30


Are you sure its five BGs? Looks like three to me. Though you've probably got the better eyesight!

Still seems an unrealistically large number of BGs for a sleeper train of that era though? And the other two Mk1s are still a mystery? I'd guess that if aircon Mk2 seaters were lacking, they'd have gone for non-AC Mk2s as replacement instead of Mk1s (were there even regular Mk1s available outside of the charter train fleet and NSE at this point?)?

 

[randyrippley]

Only the first two vehicles are Motorail vans (the GUVs). The next five are Mark 1 BGs, which for an InterCity service is a heck of a lot of vans! It's then air-con Mark 2s and by then the Mark 2D TSOs converted from FOs were being used on West Coast Sleepers for seating accommodation although hard to tell if that's what they are. It's the five BGs that are puzzling.

Did any of the overnight Glasgow trains carry newspapers? If I'm right and it's been diverted round the S&C that would explain why it seems to be late for carrying papers

 

[Helvellyn]

Are you sure its five BGs? Looks like three to me. Though you've probably got the better eyesight!

Class 86, two Motorail Vans (GUVs), three BGs in Blue/Grey, one BG in InterCity, one BG in Blue/Grey, InterCity liveried Mk 2D/E/F

Still seems an unrealistically large number of BGs for a sleeper train of that era though? And the other two Mk1s are still a mystery? I'd guess that if aircon Mk2 seaters were lacking, they'd have gone for non-AC Mk2s as replacement instead of Mk1s (were there even regular Mk1s available outside of the charter train fleet and NSE at this point?)?

The first two Mk 1s are Motorail vans (GUVs).

Did any of the overnight Glasgow trains carry newspapers? If I'm right and it's been diverted round the S&C that would explain why it seems to be late for carrying papers

Newspaper traffic had ended by 1991

 

[USRailFan]

Class 86, two Motorail Vans (GUVs), three BGs in Blue/Grey, one BG in InterCity, one BG in Blue/Grey, InterCity liveried Mk 2D/E/F

The first two Mk 1s are Motorail vans (GUVs).

Never claimed the to first Mk1s were anything other than Motorail GUVs, but were wondering about the large number of BGs

 

[D1537]

I would guess that the service has been used to move some vehicles from London to Glasgow to save running a coaching stock move. I saw this happen a couple of times, though not with as many vehicles as five!
The sleepers were ideal for this as they weren't tightly timed.

 

[USRailFan]

But weren't the sleepers already maxed out length-wise (max 16 cars) at this point?

 

[D1537]

But weren't the sleepers already maxed out length-wise (max 16 cars) already at this point?

I am willing to be proved wrong on this, but I seem to remember that the Euston-Glasgow sleeper was not as heavy as the various Highlanders.

 

[USRailFan]

I am willing to be proved wrong on this, but I seem to remember that the Euston-Glasgow sleeper was not as heavy as the various Highlanders.

Possible, I guess. I thought the sleepers too had been included in the fixed formations change around 1990ish, but I guess they may not have been? I've got pretty reliable formation data for the Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Inverness and Poole/Penzance sleepers from the summer of 91, but not been able to find any for the Euston - Glasgow one... I guess someone in this thread might have some formation information from that era

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Class 86, two Motorail Vans (GUVs), three BGs in Blue/Grey, one BG in InterCity, one BG in Blue/Grey, InterCity liveried Mk 2D/E/F

For what it's worth, on first glance (zoomed in) this is exactly my first impression as well.........

 

[norbitonflyer]

But weren't the sleepers already maxed out length-wise (max 16 cars) at this point?

In 1991, were the Edinburgh and Glasgow sleepers still separate? (Edinburgh going via the ECML)

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Better late than never... this was almost certainly the Euston-Carlisle sleeper, which called at various intermediate stations. Yes there really was such a thing. During October 1991 I caught the southbound working whose formation was just as pictured ie from the north end 7 vans, a BSO, 2 TSOs, 3 sleepers and another (brake) van. Very handy for early morning starts in London. Thanks to @norbitonflyer for bumping the thread.

Given how often we have these sorts of discussions it would be really useful if someone could do some heavy research into sleepers in the post-steam era and put it all in one place.

 

[Helvellyn]

Given how often we have these sorts of discussions it would be really useful if someone could do some heavy research into sleepers in the post-steam era and put it all in one place.

The BR Coaching Stock from 1948 group would be a brilliant place for someone to collate this.

 

[USRailFan]

In 1991, were the Edinburgh and Glasgow sleepers still separate? (Edinburgh going via the ECML)

Pretty certain, based on the WTTs and timetables I have excerpts of, that they were two separate trains, both running over the WCML

Better late than never... this was almost certainly the Euston-Carlisle sleeper, which called at various intermediate stations. Yes there really was such a thing. During October 1991 I caught the southbound working whose formation was just as pictured ie from the north end 7 vans, a BSO, 2 TSOs, 3 sleepers and another (brake) van. Very handy for early morning starts in London. Thanks to @norbitonflyer for bumping the thread.

Given how often we have these sorts of discussions it would be really useful if someone could do some heavy research into sleepers in the post-steam era and put it all in one place.

Thanks for the info. I see that the original poster on Flickr now also have updated the post there with pretty much the same info