Swanage Railway announce 2023 Wareham service

[zwk500]

Yep, main aim was to visit Sheffield Park, so I drove there from Southampton and then got the steam train to East Grinstead and back. Thought the main line connection was pretty cool, but would be unlikely to use it if I wanted to go on the Bluebell railway again.

My parents live near Brighton, so I will naturally tend to drive to Sheffield Park if visiting the Bluebell as I'd be staying with them. The only time I see myself using the mainline link is if I get a railtour, tbh.

I think the mainline link has been valuable for the Bluebell - the extension project itself gained a lot of publicity, the tracks are at least visible from the station, and it has also opened up several commercial opportunities with railtours, Steam servicing (Clan Line has visited the workshops at times), loco exchanges, and also mainline training operations with tampers and so on. Passengers aren't the only source of revenue a mainline connection gives.

 

[railfan99]

Yep, main aim was to visit Sheffield Park, so I drove there from Southampton and then got the steam train to East Grinstead and back. Thought the main line connection was pretty cool, but would be unlikely to use it if I wanted to go on the Bluebell railway again.

As an international visitor, I will be using it in September 2023. Very handy, even if the frequency of suburban trains to and from EG isn't terrific.

 

[341o2]

My fear is that SRC will not include all costs including depreciation, renewals and replacements in the calculation (because it may beg the question why was such a financially hopeless project commenced) so if a subsidy is forthcoming SRC may still find themselves in the mire in subsequent years.

You could say the same for any heritage line, and it was always the Railway's intention to operate trains to Wareham.

 

[Trainlog]

When it comes to the Bluebell, it doesn't help that in recent times they have charged quite a lot for railtours to use their line especially post pandemic. In the opening stages of the link you saw many railtour attempts down there (2013-15) with locos such as Tornado, Hastings unit, Mayflower, and so on for the big early locos to have visited.

The Bluebell also did pull off some interesting attempts with a Mid hants to Bluebell steam railtour, and them sending the metropolitan coaches, Camelot and a visiting 4mt being sent on the mainline. However, the problem is for the Bluebell is...

A.) From the enthusiasts point of view there isn't much of a hyped anticipation for a return visit unless there is a great lineup of the 'Giants of steam' gala or they get Beachy head up and running.

B.) Zwk500 is right in the fact that East Grinstead doesn't feel like a massive tourist attraction and the Bluebell hasn't been great at promoting their link with advertisements up in London so that the general public can be aware of it and potentially consider visiting it.

 

[Titfield]

When it comes to the Bluebell, it doesn't help that in recent times they have charged quite a lot for railtours to use their line especially post pandemic. In the opening stages of the link you saw many railtour attempts down there (2013-15) with locos such as Tornado, Hastings unit, Mayflower, and so on for the big early locos to have visited.

The Bluebell also did pull off some interesting attempts with a Mid hants to Bluebell steam railtour, and them sending the metropolitan coaches, Camelot and a visiting 4mt being sent on the mainline. However, the problem is for the Bluebell is...

A.) From the enthusiasts point of view there isn't much of a hyped anticipation for a return visit unless there is a great lineup of the 'Giants of steam' gala or they get Beachy head up and running.

B.) Zwk500 is right in the fact that East Grinstead doesn't feel like a massive tourist attraction and the Bluebell hasn't been great at promoting their link with advertisements up in London so that the general public can be aware of it and potentially consider visiting it.

I suspect that the BB realised that overall a higher charge per railtour gave a better financial result.

The cost of marketing in London (in the Metro or on the Underground) is extremely high and probably wouldnt be viable for the BB.

 

[paul1609]

It will have to be subsidised, most network services are, there is no reason why different standards should be expected of services to/from heritage lines. This is for an all year round service, which I still don't believe SR has any intention of providing. As I've said elsewhere, if heritage lines continue with their insular 'siege' mentality, then subsidised TOC services should be forced on them. Swanage-Poole/Bournemouth, WSR to Taunton/Bristol, any line with an under used main line connection. Those that already have cross-platform connections, like Alton or East Grinstead are fulfilling their potential,

Sorry but you are incorrect, neither Alton or East Grinstead's connection cover their costs in respect of incoming passengers from Nationalrail services. The Mid Hants tell me that SWR actually make more out of the connection than they do through car parking charges. The best performing connection in the South is Smallbrook Junction but even this only averages around 8000 passengers a year.
The only heritage railway Ive found that gets a significant income from through tickets from the national network is narrow gauge and in the north west. At least one heritage railway in the southeast actually loses money on through tickets after they pay the TOCs administration charge but feel its something they should do for good relations.

 

[Trainlog]

I suspect that the BB realised that overall a higher charge per railtour gave a better financial result.

The cost of marketing in London (in the Metro or on the Underground) is extremely high and probably wouldnt be viable for the BB.

1.) Unfortunately, it drove away many railtour opportunities that where interested in going to the Bluebell for short trips, a few years back Steam dreams was going to do many railtours between Southend Victoria and Sheffield park same with the Hastings thumper group - according to some of the members of that group the main takeaway from it was that the Bluebell was pricing them out of doing the trip down the line compared to other heritage railways.

2.) lets put it like this, in cities like London you are more likely to see a vintage bus, a WW2 flyover or static exhibit, a classic car or a former World War vessel. Many in London probably haven't seen steam trains in decades as apart from the Epping Ongar there is little opportunities to see steam unless you are in the right time and place to see a railtour pass through.

London is the perfect place to try and advertise if you can as a lot of heritage railways are accessible from there in a 2hr radius - i appreciate that money is tight on a lot of these lines but i don't see MSN articles, occassional newspaper sections in lifestyle, and promotion tweets as the silver bullet to get more people to see heritage railways.

To bring this thread back to the Swanage what they have done is the opposite to the Bluebell, there are many mainline railtours and cameo appearances from mainline locos to that line as it seems that they have kept the mainline visit rate reasonable as Railway touring company is making a lot of visits there- same seems to be happening for the WSR aswell. Though a bit further out, the Swanage is probably on the periphery rate but still acceptable for many to come from the Southeast to see that line due to the mainline link. Even adding an extra hour from where i am in West Kent it would still be achievable with plenty of time to see the line and Swanage from my perspective so i'm willing to keep my glass half full on the Swanage railways gamble.

 

[zwk500]

1.) Unfortunately, it drove away many railtour opportunities that where interested in going to the Bluebell for short trips, a few years back Steam dreams was going to do many railtours between Southend Victoria and Sheffield park same with the Hastings thumper group - according to some of the members of that group the main takeaway from it was that the Bluebell was pricing them out of doing the trip down the line compared to other heritage railways.

It's also the difficulty of running railtours through Croydon, and the reversals that were needed to turn steam to/from the Bluebell. Not impossible to resolve but did extend journey times, limiting origin points.

Also it meant the Bluebell had to rewrite it's timetable around the charter for the day, when their bread and butter is passengers driving to Sheffield Park who may well be completely unaware of a railtour unless it's part of a special event.

2.) lets put it like this, in cities like London you are more likely to see a vintage bus, a WW2 flyover or static exhibit, a classic car or a former World War vessel. Many in London probably haven't seen steam trains in decades as apart from the Epping Ongar there is little opportunities to see steam unless you are in the right time and place to see a railtour pass through.

London is the perfect place to try and advertise if you can as a lot of heritage railways are accessible from there in a 2hr radius - i appreciate that money is tight on a lot of these lines but i don't see MSN articles, occassional newspaper sections in lifestyle, and promotion tweets as the silver bullet to get more people to see heritage railways.

While this is true it's still expensive to get decent advertising space.

To bring this thread back to the Swanage what they have done is the opposite to the Bluebell, there are many mainline railtours and cameo appearances from mainline locos to that line as it seems that they have kept the mainline visit rate reasonable as Railway touring company is making a lot of visits there- same seems to be happening for the WSR aswell. Though a bit further out, the Swanage is probably on the periphery rate but still acceptable for many to come from the Southeast to see that line due to the mainline link. Even adding an extra hour from where i am in West Kent it would still be achievable with plenty of time to see the line and Swanage from my perspective so i'm willing to keep my glass half full on the Swanage railways gamble.

The Swanage has always been a popular railtour destination for various reasons - it's a good destination in it's own right, the line is a nice length for the tour portion, the mainline link is long-established and not in a capacity-pressed area, and you can turn locos at Southampton by reversing via Romsey.

 

[Dougal2345]

Offering lower fares on the dmu services would create huge customer relations / enforcement issues.

I had always assumed that the plan would have been to have 'DMU-only' tickets from Wareham to Swanage, at some discount over the 'full steam' price.

This would emphasise the idea that the DMU link was a 'normal' rail service, not a heritage day out.

Are the enforcement issues the only reason this wasn't done? I would have thought if the tickets were clearly enough marked 'not valid for steam', anyone travelling by steam could be asked to pay a supplement, and for the very few recalcitrants who refuse, give them up as a bad job and let them have their little victory...

 

[Dai Corner]

I had always assumed that the plan would have been to have 'DMU-only' tickets from Wareham to Swanage, at some discount over the 'full steam' price.

This would emphasise the idea that the DMU link was a 'normal' rail service, not a heritage day out.

Are the enforcement issues the only reason this wasn't done? I would have thought if the tickets were clearly enough marked 'not valid for steam', anyone travelling by steam could be asked to pay a supplement, and for the very few recalcitrants who refuse, give them up as a bad job and let them have their little victory...

Isn't the DMU a heritage one?

 

[paul1609]

I had always assumed that the plan would have been to have 'DMU-only' tickets from Wareham to Swanage, at some discount over the 'full steam' price.

This would emphasise the idea that the DMU link was a 'normal' rail service, not a heritage day out.

Are the enforcement issues the only reason this wasn't done? I would have thought if the tickets were clearly enough marked 'not valid for steam', anyone travelling by steam could be asked to pay a supplement, and for the very few recalcitrants who refuse, give them up as a bad job and let them have their little victory...

if you are saying its not a heritage railway but a normal service the DMU would have to be much more expensive than the steam railway without subsidy.

 

[dgl]

Isn't the DMU a heritage one?

Yes, but with TPWS and central door locking to be allowed on the mainline. Not quite sure what mainline registered DMU's they have but on Tuesday it was a three car unit with two driving motors and a middle trailer. Had a guards area/van and some "first class" 2+1 seating, which is where I sat.

 

[Titfield]

Yes, but with TPWS and central door locking to be allowed on the mainline. Not quite sure what mainline registered DMU's they have but on Tuesday it was a three car unit with two driving motors and a middle trailer. Had a guards area/van and some "first class" 2+1 seating, which is where I sat.

SRC have a Class 117 DMU (3car unit) and a Class 121 DMU (single car unit).

I had always assumed that the plan would have been to have 'DMU-only' tickets from Wareham to Swanage, at some discount over the 'full steam' price.

This would emphasise the idea that the DMU link was a 'normal' rail service, not a heritage day out.

Are the enforcement issues the only reason this wasn't done? I would have thought if the tickets were clearly enough marked 'not valid for steam', anyone travelling by steam could be asked to pay a supplement, and for the very few recalcitrants who refuse, give them up as a bad job and let them have their little victory...

Because to be lower than the "full steam price" would mean a Swanage <> Wareham return fare of less than £18 which would be financially very very challenging for SRC.

To provide the required level of service / flexibility between Swanage and Corfe Castle / Norden both dmu and steam are needed and thus passengers can use either the steam or dmu service. Creating barriers for customers to use the service will just create ill will.

The DMU service is a heritage service in the sense that it uses heritage rolling stock and operates to a schedule optimised to appeal to tourists.

 

[Dougal2345]

Because to be lower than the "full steam price" would mean a Swanage <> Wareham return fare of less than £18 which would be financially very very challenging for SRC.

To provide the required level of service / flexibility between Swanage and Corfe Castle / Norden both dmu and steam are needed and thus passengers can use either the steam or dmu service. Creating barriers for customers to use the service will just create ill will.

The DMU service is a heritage service in the sense that it uses heritage rolling stock and operates to a schedule optimised to appeal to tourists.

Yes, but on the other hand Swanage has more to offer than just the steam railway.

I can only speak for myself, but I live on the SWML and enjoy days out to many places within an hour or two's travel distance, most of which have no railway interest at the destination.

Swanage, for example, has a lovely coastal walk to the Anvil Point lighthouse, and has a nice selection of charity shops for a bit of treasure-hunting.

With the return fare at £25 from Wareham, I might travel that way once this summer, for a ride on the steam trains and such like.

But if a DMU-only fare were also offered, at, say, £12.50 return, I might well head to Swanage by train a couple more times, for the Anvil Point walk, and a charity shop mooch. But instead those trips, if I make them at all, will be by bus.

 

[Titfield]

But if a DMU-only fare were also offered, at, say, £12.50 return, I might well head to Swanage by train a couple more times, for the Anvil Point walk, and a charity shop mooch. But instead those trips, if I make them at all, will be by bus

Hopefully someone will suggest this idea to SRC then. I would be interested to read their considered response.

I suppose the question is what would be the outcome of halving the fare? Twice as many passengers to give the same revenue, less than twice as many passengers to give less revenue, or more than twice as many passengers to give more revenue.

 

[williamn]

The often poor connections between mainline and BB at East Grinstead also don’t help. For example this week coming the BB train leaves at 11.45 yet trains from London arrive at .50 past each hour.

 

[railfan99]

The often poor connections between mainline and BB at East Grinstead also don’t help. For example this week coming the BB train leaves at 11.45 yet trains from London arrive at .50 past each hour.

Yes, given I'm planning a visit on my UK/Europe trip later this year, why can't the Bluebell time departures at EG to be say 20 or 25 minutes after scheduled arrival of the electrics?

Easy timetable change to make.

 

[Techniquest]

Yes, given I'm planning a visit on my UK/Europe trip later this year, why can't the Bluebell time departures at EG to be say 20 or 25 minutes after scheduled arrival of the electrics?

Easy timetable change to make.

At least the near-hour wait will provide plenty of time to stock up on supplies in the nearby supermarket, enjoy a coffee from the station cafe and take photos before the heritage train's departure

 

[Invincible]

Yes, given I'm planning a visit on my UK/Europe trip later this year, why can't the Bluebell time departures at EG to be say 20 or 25 minutes after scheduled arrival of the electrics?

Easy timetable change to make.

From the thumper DEMU press release, the Bluebell line intend to use the "thumper" for an early connection from the London to EG train.

DEMU 1305 Press Release - East Grinstead Business Association

The Bluebell Railway is pleased to announce the purchase of former Southern Region DEMU No. 1305, which will become part of the Bluebell Railway fleet. No. 1305 has been owned...

www.egba.co.uk

It will form a useful and economic means of bringing passengers to our railway earlier than is currently possible and allowing them to spend a full day exploring the line and experiencing the sight and sound of steam and for some the nostalgia of the daily commute.”

But doubt if the thumper restoration will be ready in time for your trip?.

Hopefully next year, if the SR Wareham service continues, they can cut costs with getting SR volunteer crew (rather than the WCR crew) certified for mainline operations, and also have an earlier Wareham DMU mainline connection to Swanage?.

Eventually at some stage the SR could add central locking to coaches and run steam trains to Wareham, the cost for central locking solenoids is expensive, maybe there might be a way to reduce this?.

 

[zwk500]

Hopefully next year, if the SR Wareham service continues, they can cut costs with getting SR volunteer crew (rather than the WCR crew) certified for mainline operations, and also have an earlier Wareham DMU mainline connection to Swanage?.

The SR getting mainline authorisation on it's own terms is likely to be extremely expensive. There's a possibility they could do what the NNR does at Cromer and operate under the NYMR license, but I don't know what the ORR would say about the necessarily competency and management for operating to Wareham. Whitby and Cromer are isolated branches, Wareham is part of the SWML and much more sensitive.

Eventually at some stage the SR could add central locking to coaches and run steam trains to Wareham, the cost for central locking solenoids is expensive, maybe there might be a way to reduce this?.

Bulk fitment might bring the cost down a bit.

 

[30907]

The often poor connections between mainline and BB at East Grinstead also don’t help. For example this week coming the BB train leaves at 11.45 yet trains from London arrive at .50 past each hour.

Problem being that the Bluebell operates a 75min or 150min frequency.
Or if you prefer, that the mainline service has been cut by half.

 

[James H]

Just had an email offering 20% off Wareham services over the coronation weekend.

 

[Titfield]

The SR getting mainline authorisation on it's own terms is likely to be extremely expensive. There's a possibility they could do what the NNR does at Cromer and operate under the NYMR license, but I don't know what the ORR would say about the necessarily competency and management for operating to Wareham. Whitby and Cromer are isolated branches, Wareham is part of the SWML and much more sensitive.

Bulk fitment might bring the cost down a bit.

AIUI part of the cost issue are the network rail access charges, station access charges (Wareham) and the cost of mainline insurance which requires a cover level of £155M.

These charges are significant and again aiui unlikely to be "negotiable" (possibly in the case of the insurance there may be a competitive market but I somehow am doubtful that there is).

It seems to me that these costs even if spread over say 20,000 passengers per annum represent a very significant cost per passenger and when added to the "base fare" between Swanage and Norden give a less than attractive fare.

 

[williamn]

Problem being that the Bluebell operates a 75min or 150min frequency.
Or if you prefer, that the mainline service has been cut by half.

This is a timetable where there is only one possible round trip from East Grinstead. Surely it would be possible to time it to connect it better to the mainline.

 

[Brush 4]

It does seem counter-productive that these lines take years to reconnect to the network and when they do, don't maximise usage possibilities. I can't recall ever seeing ads promoting travel by rail to these lines, which doesn't mean that there weren't any. Skegness is so bracing style. Posters at Waterloo showing the boy looking up at the driver of a steam engine, but at Corfe Castle, instead of Waterloo.

 

[James H]

To be fair SWR includes the Swanage Railway, IOWSR and Watercress Line on all their on board network maps, which is a nice gesture.

 

[Dougal2345]

I suppose the question is what would be the outcome of halving the fare? Twice as many passengers to give the same revenue, less than twice as many passengers to give less revenue, or more than twice as many passengers to give more revenue.

My thinking is that there are three types of people using the current £25 service.

1) People who want a day out riding behind steam trains
2) People who want to see steam trains, but would be happy enough doing that from the platform at Swanage if they can save a few pennies.
3) People who want to get to Swanage for some other reason.

My guess is that, at the moment, "1s" are plentiful (the majority?), "2s" a sizeable minority, and "3s" virtually non-existent.

So if there were two types of ticket available, a "full steam" ticket, at £25 (as at present), and a "DMU-only" ticket (say, £12.50), how might that affect revenue?

Well, the "1s" would still pay their £25 and be very happy. No change in their numbers or revenue.
The "2s" would plump for the DMU-only. So, a revenue loss there.
The "3s" would also choose DMU-only - so a loss there too.

But of course the numbers of "2s" and "3s" would increase - the "3s" by a large amount, perhaps.

The bus is £4 return at the moment, so that has an obvious edge, but when the £2 single bus offer ends, the bus will be £10. So a £12.50 train ticket starts to seem more competitive then.

 

[Falcon1200]

1) People who want a day out riding behind steam trains
2) People who want to see steam trains, but would be happy enough doing that from the platform at Swanage if they can save a few pennies.
3) People who want to get to Swanage for some other reason.

To that I would add;
4) People who did not travel on the Swanage branch before BR closed it and want to do the complete line.

(I belong in both groups 1) and 4); I had done Norden/Swanage before but not the main line connection)

 

[jupiter]

Well I’m in 4) and at £12.50 return I’d come back for more. £25 is too dear for me to ride.

 

[Titfield]

It does seem counter-productive that these lines take years to reconnect to the network and when they do, don't maximise usage possibilities. I can't recall ever seeing ads promoting travel by rail to these lines, which doesn't mean that there weren't any. Skegness is so bracing style. Posters at Waterloo showing the boy looking up at the driver of a steam engine, but at Corfe Castle, instead of Waterloo.

(1) A short campaign for the Wareham service would cost more than SRCs entire advertising budget for a year.
(2) Many heritage railways believe in the "Field of Dreams" approach.
(3) Many heritage railways see more value in putting the money towards restoration (loco, coach, wagon etc) than in marketing and thus revenue generation.