SWR after May

[Speed1283]

As above, there will be no money for large-scale livery change. At most it might be a new logo vinyl applied, especially considering most of the fleets have only recently had the SWR livery applied.

 

[Haywain]

Employees will most likely lose reciprocal First Group travel as per TPE when they transferred to DFTO.

That is an absolute certainty, with immediate effect at the changeover date. The fact that the passes have a later expiry date doesn't mean that they can be used until that date.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

As above, there will be no money for large-scale livery change. At most it might be a new logo vinyl applied, especially considering most of the fleets have only recently had the SWR livery applied.

Building on this, it has to be pointed out that except for the 455s ( and only because those should already be doing nothing apart from containing the output of the Heinz factory ) they've just been converting the red / white / blue livery variations into a single livery...

I'd agree with the analysis that it'll just be a GBR logo and name on vinyl - any revised livery is likely to only be applied when a repainting becomes due and is likely to be a lot more generic than some of the suggestions made in various parts of this forum.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Agreed with comments saying GBR won't start with a bang which this will be more gradual which is why I think all the DFTO TOCs will only get at least BR forked logo vinyls stuck on on existing liveries, possibly with "part of the GBR family" tagline, something like that.

This may be disappointing for those expecting a radical change from day 1. It will be rather expensive to change everything to blue (if this is GBR's colour scheme) when new stock launches like the 810s having to go from purple to blue in a short space of time.

It could be the existing TOC liveries will be kept also emphasising GBR and the BR forked logo for some years until GBR completely absorbs Network Rail etc then the full rebranding should start, also this will depend politically if Labour does not win the next election as the future govt will have other priorities also the country has bigger issues to sort.

 

[moley]

The operators of last resort do not become part of GBR at the same time as SWR. Their ‘franchises/management contracts’ each need to separately be brought to an end, rolling stock contracts negotiated etc. so don’t expect immediate branding on those at day one.

What I don’t get is, if we’re only going to see a BR forked logo, why the DFT have set a very strict embargo on words and pictures - even to the point that the press event is happening away from a station.

 

[I_am_Nobody]

If uniforms and things were to change as close to day 1 of the SWR nationalisation, then things would already be rolling out. My friend who works at SWR has mentioned ordering new uniform recently in the current style, so I really don’t think that’s going to change anytime soon. I imagine it would probably start rolling out when there’s more of a spread across the country.

I also would not be surprised to still see “A FirstGroup and MTR company” on the side of SWR trains till the end of this year. Livery really isn’t the priority when SWR is concerned, even though it’s relatively easy to do!

 

[Joe Paxton]

Anyone getting excited about the prospect of new liveries (or indeed disappointed that the prospect of the immediate implementation of such a thing is being rejected as highly unlikely by others) perhaps needs to reassess what the real priorities are!

 

[The Ham]

I would like to point out that there's a difference between a massive roll out of branding and branding a few trains so there's lots of images for the press and social media.

Yes the former isn't a priority , however just turning up and saying something isn't going to gain traction in the press/on social media.

 

[vuzzeho]

I don't really see anything suggesting there won't be some form of rebranding effort when SWR comes into public ownership. GBR is a major point-scoring moment for the govt, who have not had the best rep lately. Sure, they can't make immediate changes in major ways for SWR but since this is a way for them to show they're doing something, they'll want to make a fuss. Why would they do a small press conference saying 'we took it into public hands' when they want people to know they did something. It'll be GBR-fest in Waterloo. Further evidence to suggest this might be what's happening includes this aforementioned press event with an embargo from the 25th, and the Times article. Sure, these aren't concrete, but I like my theory. And I agree - it will not be a complete repaint of the full fleet, but probably quite a few vinyls.

On the operational side of things - I don't think much will change when GBR takes over SWR. They'll probably take credit for the 701 rollout.

Also, slightly off-topic, but people did mention this. Please move to another thread if more appropriate. The DFTO operators do have direct award services contracts that will/have expire(d):

Public register of rail passenger contracts

Contract documents for passenger railway services in England and details of how to request contract information.

www.gov.uk

LNER - 22nd June 2025
TPE - Core term expiry 25th May 2025
Northern - 1st March 2025 (interesting)
SE - 13th October 2024, with business plan commitments agreed until 31st March 2025 (agreed 30th April '24)

 

[PTR 444]

How many SWR units still bear their SWT era livery to this day? I’ve always thought this would make a good base for a GBR livery with red, white and blue (coincidentally the same colours as the Union Jack) to distinguish between metro, long-distance and regional services.

 

[DelW]

How many SWR units still bear their SWT era livery to this day? I’ve always thought this would make a good base for a GBR livery with red, white and blue (coincidentally the same colours as the Union Jack) to distinguish between metro, long-distance and regional services.

It's pretty much just the ones that are due for scrapping, so the 455s in red and whatever's left of the 458/5s in blue. Might also be some diesels left, but it's a while now since I've seen one still in SWT livery.

 

[Zomboid]

I think I saw an SWT livery 159 last time I was in Woking, which would have been about January, I think.
Could be my memory playing tricks though. (Still looks better than SWR colours though).

 

[VItraveller]

nationalisation will be an absolute failure if the government prioritises new liveries and staff uniforms over and above service punctuality, quality and reliability.
very few people outside of rail enthusiasts care what livery the train has but will be more focused on how late their train from Reading to Basingstoke is.

 

[vuzzeho]

nationalisation will be an absolute failure if the government prioritises new liveries and staff uniforms over and above service punctuality, quality and reliability.
very few people outside of rail enthusiasts care what livery the train has but will be more focused on how late their train from Reading to Basingstoke is.

The people who design and apply the livery are not the same people who handle the operational aspect of the service. It's pretty clear that there will not be a day one patch to fix SWR when it is taken over, and improvements will be made slowly. However, a new livery (or at least vinyls) can act as a sign that things are different now and that change is coming.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

How many SWR units still bear their SWT era livery to this day? I’ve always thought this would make a good base for a GBR livery with red, white and blue (coincidentally the same colours as the Union Jack) to distinguish between metro, long-distance and regional services.

Yes, if Stagecoach SWT had survived to this day then the white express units - 444s and 158/9s - would have made a good base for a new "interim" GBR livery if they go for British Airways style by simply swapping the orange to blue also retaining the red and white.

Stagecoach SWT did similiar with some stock upon privatisation by tweaking the NSE toothpaste livery to its colours.

Just remembered, GX did this to the 442s when transferred from SWT.

Outside SWR, DFTO/GBR may possibly do this with Northern Rail, LNER, GA and C2C etc as their stock are in white.

 

[JonathanH]

However, a new livery (or at least vinyls) can act as a sign that things are different now and that change is coming.

It is, however, a dangerous strategy if that change doesn't come quickly afterwards and the brand just becomes tarnished with the same issues as the current operation.

 

[Zomboid]

This is the first one to come back since the election, isn't it?
I can see them wanting to make a thing of that, and to talk about what their plans are. But I'd be surprised if it was the big fireworks and fanfare launch of the public facing aspects of GBR. But maybe the government are thinking that they want to have made big inroads into his things appear by 2029, in which case a branding and livery launch in 2028 isn't going to be soon enough.

 

[Kite159]

..

It's pretty much just the ones that are due for scrapping, so the 455s in red and whatever's left of the 458/5s in blue. Might also be some diesels left, but it's a while now since I've seen one still in SWT livery.

The 7x 159/1s and around half of the 158s are still in SWT colours as the franchise changed when they were getting refreshed.

 

[Stephen42]

The operators of last resort do not become part of GBR at the same time as SWR. Their ‘franchises/management contracts’ each need to separately be brought to an end, rolling stock contracts negotiated etc. so don’t expect immediate branding on those at day one.

What I don’t get is, if we’re only going to see a BR forked logo, why the DFT have set a very strict embargo on words and pictures - even to the point that the press event is happening away from a station.

The operator of last resort has been renamed to the DfT Operator. The legislation passed last year does not establish GBR, it requires contracts to be awarded to public sector bodies without setting up authority for any new body. How the trains are branded is largely up to the DfT and any GBR branding won't change how it legally operates. This will be the first move into public operation since the election, but it's still going to the DfT Operator and a contract will be awarded for it to do so.

There's nothing stopping SE Trains Ltd, Northern Trains Ltd etc from being given business commitments to slap GBR branding everywhere as part of their current contracts. It will be that this is the first one since the election and wanting to maximise impact with the announcement. Avoiding doing the press event anywhere public gives the embargo half a chance of working.

 

[danielnez1]

While we are discussing branding, has First/MTR byline started to disappear on the trains?

 

[I_am_Nobody]

While we are discussing branding, has First/MTR byline started to disappear on the trains?

Not to my knowledge. I’ve seen it on the Desiro stock as recently as yesterday. I’ll try to keep an eye out as I’m travelling over the next few days.

 

[danielnez1]

Not to my knowledge. I’ve seen it on the Desiro stock as recently as yesterday. I’ll try to keep an eye out as I’m travelling over the next few days.

Thanks I guess that will be the first branding priority!

 

[PaulJ]

I did see a picture on FB the other day showing branding is starting to be removed.

 

[Kite159]

The "First/MTR" has started to get removed from the diesels

 

[Tobberz]

I think that later this year or next year we may get a proper livery launch, with more bells-and-whistles that would come with a public-facing moment of "nationalisation". While it is certainly not a priority (as most agree with here), Labour will want to show voters that it has delivered, for the exact same reason that operators have previously changed liveries on assumption of an operating contract: a differentiation with the past, an idea of changing for the better.

But I wouldn't be surprised if this happens further down the line for the basic reason that launching it closer to the next election will have the effect of it being in voters minds.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Something is changing. There is a press event during the working week before which is fully embargoed until the Sunday change over day.

It’s not in a station for a change, suggesting something to reveal!

This is interesting to note

 

[Wivenswold]

The press event suggests some sort of launch. I think it's likely that there will be a minor change to the livery (like when Stagecoach South West Trains launched in 1996). I'm also expecting a rash of small-cost improvements, a few extra services, perhaps earlier and later trains to all destinations. New app, special offers for weekend travel, maybe introduce an annual "Network Day" in the summer holidays like the NSE events of years gone by.

That's what I'm hoping for from the GA takeover along with the repurposing of 745s on "East Side" long distance services. Plenty of underseat room for luggage under the seats on the 720s for the Stansted runs. Time to give the nicer trains with the comfier seats to those who pay £6,000-plus to commute and spend upwards of twelve hours a week sitting on trains.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

The press event suggests some sort of launch. I think it's likely that there will be a minor change to the livery (like when Stagecoach South West Trains launched in 1996). I'm also expecting a rash of small-cost improvements, a few extra services, perhaps earlier and later trains to all destinations. New app, special offers for weekend travel, maybe introduce an annual "Network Day" in the summer holidays like the NSE events of years gone by.

That's what I'm hoping for from the GA takeover along with the repurposing of 745s on "East Side" long distance services. Plenty of underseat room for luggage under the seats on the 720s for the Stansted runs. Time to give the nicer trains with the comfier seats to those who pay £6,000-plus to commute and spend upwards of twelve hours a week sitting on trains.

Sorry for going off topic, are they really putting 720s for Stansted Express?? Oh boy, the airport users will love the 3+2 seating! They really should've kept the 379s. OK back on topic.

Agreed about the soft launch akin to Stagecoach SWT by tweaking the NSE colours, but not sure how to apply on the anthracite grey-blue SWR livery (easier to do if the livery is white) also likely to be vinyls stuck on current livery.

The "launch" & photo op probably inside a SWR depot showcasing a partially vinyled Desiro or few vinyls stuck on?

 

[OneTrackMinded]

The "launch" & photo op probably inside a SWR depot showcasing a partially vinyled Desiro or few vinyls stuck on?

My guess is it’ll be an Arterio as that’s sort of the headliner at the moment. The spin will probably be “we’re introducing these new trains to transform the passenger experience after years of mismanagement from the previous privatisation system”

 

[dorsetdesiro]

My guess is it’ll be an Arterio as that’s sort of the headliner at the moment. The spin will probably be “we’re introducing these new trains to transform the passenger experience after years of mismanagement from the previous privatisation system”

701s sounds about right, plenty available for vinyling also as you say for putting a positive spin for the DfT and SWR after the disastrous & much delayed rollout