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SWR Class 458 to be retained

Big Jumby 74

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Is running 450/444 combos possible as a compromise (length approx 5/6s of a 10car 444 or 12car 450)?
Absolutely. BUT, in the early days of Desiro's (2004 timetable) there were planning rules that essentially barred that scenario, not for any physical/non compatible (stock) reason, but more to do with a desire for a robust timetable and good performance. Any odd mixed formations were seen (back then) as a potential performance risk, in the sense that for example, if said formation became reversed for any reason, it could lead to problems with the timetable (wrong unit/s on wrong services etc), which in the peak hours could prove a real problem. Just to demonstrate my point: If a 9 car (450 leading/444 trailing) came in to Waterloo (or Portsmouth Harbour for that matter), and was diagrammed to split, the 444 on the rear then departing separately, leaving the 4 car 450 on the blocks, to form the rear part of another train. The front part of that latter train (an 8 car 450) arriving after the 444 had gone, and attaching to the 4 car on the blocks to form an outgoing 12 car 450. All well and good in the plan, BUT what if the mixed formation had become reversed before the detachment, incorrectly formed up earlier perhaps or diverted (unscheduled) off route, such as a 1P run via Southampton due to a line blockage. Rare perhaps but still possible - end result an 8 car 450 enters the terminus later to attach to what should be a 4 car 450, only for the driver to find on entering the platform a 5 car 444 in front of them. The signallers would not necessarily know the inbound train was reverse formed - end result, either at PH or Waterloo, the job get partially stopped due to 13 cars trying to occupy a 12 car platform.

That's just one example of why certain rules applied to the preparation of the base plan timetables over the years. Keep the plans as simple as possible within the requirements of the job, therefore the timetable should prove more robust/resilient, which benefits everyone, particularly the fare paying passengers. The mileage limitations on the Desiro's did cause some compromises in this regard, including the decision to have mixed formations on the Poole/Portsmouth splitters on Sundays - a decision that was not taken lightly, but the alternative was a breech of the financial contract.
 
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norbitonflyer

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Reversal of a long distance SWR service must be quite rare - about the only possibility I can think of as at all likely is a Portsmouth service unable to travel either via Petersfield or via Botley, and having to reverse at Southampton.

Happens all the time on the Inners of course
 

Cowley

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Starting to drift off topic back there a bit I feel.

Could we stick to the subject matter from now on please.

Thanks :)
 

Invincible

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Although on the Class 701 thread it was claimed that Claire Mann stated last week that SWR will not be using the 458s so training and ASLEF views would appear to be irrelevant.

I didn't probe the claim further as was it was complete off-topic.
No formal announcement, but mention in the rail news sites the 458s (as 12 car?) might be used on Alton and Basingstoke routes. (or another rumour?).
Wonder if she just meant the 458s will not be used on the PDL as originally planned (but could be used for Alton and Basingstoke?).
 
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TT-ONR-NRN

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No formal announcement, but mention in the rail news sites the 458s (as 12 car?) might be used on Alton and Basingstoke routes.
Wonder if she just meant the 458s will not be used on the PDL as originally planned?.
Honestly, as a Farnham local, I'd welcome that with glee. I do make the most of the few booked 444s we get each day, but I'd definitely rather a 2+2 458 than the 450s that provide most of the service :lol:
 
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The paths for the next 458/4 delivery to SWR for either 458404 or 458416 are now on RTT

22nd January 2024
5Z57 1050 Leicester L.I.P. to Widnes Transport Tech

5Q57 1637 Widnes Transport Tech to Wembley Receptions 1-7

23rd January 2024
5X73 0728 Wembley Receptions 1-7 to Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D

5Q58 1711 Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D to Widnes Transport Tech

As posted by @Benno (#2236), 5Q58 should be 458520.
 

Northerngirl

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The paths for the next 458/4 delivery to SWR for either 458404 or 458416 are now on RTT

22nd January 2024
5Z57 1050 Leicester L.I.P. to Widnes Transport Tech

5Q57 1637 Widnes Transport Tech to Wembley Receptions 1-7

23rd January 2024
5X73 0728 Wembley Receptions 1-7 to Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D

5Q58 1711 Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D to Widnes Transport Tech

As posted by @Benno (#2236), 5Q58 should be 458520.
Is 5Z the loco + emu & 5Q light loco back & Any idea what loco it is?
 

43096

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Is 5Z the loco + emu & 5Q light loco back & Any idea what loco it is?
5Z57 is the loco and translator vans going up to pick the set up. 5Q57 and 5X73 are the move of the 458/4 to Bournemouth and 5Q58 is to take 458520 up for conversion.
 

Dan G

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Apparently there's a chance they never will, according to some who say SWR have no plans to use them.

I'll be honest, I had no idea where this union thing has come from, I know the Driver's LDC at fratton quite well and as I understand they have no real opinion on the matter, probably because they haven't been approached about traction training on them yet. They certainly aren't opposed, not sure they have grounds to object anyway they are no different from the 458/5 cabs which are still in use, there isn't even a conversion course for 458/5 to /4, merely a signed brief. So sounds like railway hearsay and rumour.

Part of the supposed reason for not introducing the 458/4s is the crew cost to train up the depots. If you off lease a chunk of the 450 fleet you still incur the cost of training multiple depots in a relatively small fleet. I understand that the 458s will still see regular mainline use as ECS moves even after the introduction project, just to keep the wheels turning.

Although on the Class 701 thread it was claimed that Claire Mann stated last week that SWR will not be using the 458s so training and ASLEF views would appear to be irrelevant.

I didn't probe the claim further as was it was complete off-topic.

Although if ASLEF have black balled the 458s in 4 carriage 100mph guise I guess that might be part of the reason not to use them.

It still seems an odd way to run a railway, to extentend the lease on your units on the proviso they are reconfigured, take delivery 2/3 years later and never use them. I guess I'd never make a railway manager as I can't get my head around it.

I'm just trying to suss out the origins of the rumour that the 458/4s will not be entering service. As far as I can tell, it's complete rumour, with no evidence whatsoever.

Happy to be corrected – if you can point to something published!
 

amazon1675

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So,we have had... the 442s refurbished then binned,virtually a whole fleet of 701 built with just a couple in use in the builds' fourth year,and now on-going refubishment of the 458s, which it seems may or may not get used. Someone keeps pouring water in a bucket full of holes it seems. OOLR...you know it makes sense.Change of livery,change of luck...
 

3RDGEN

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I'm just trying to suss out the origins of the rumour that the 458/4s will not be entering service. As far as I can tell, it's complete rumour, with no evidence whatsoever.

Happy to be corrected – if you can point to something published!
The February issue of Modern Railways has a short news item on the 458 refurb and it quotes Neil Drury, Engineering & Infrastructure Director at SWR, saying there is "No immediate plan to introduce refurbished 458's". It's put down to reduction in commuting/demand so if passenger numbers continue to recover they may see use.
 

wickham

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Does anyone know what has become of 458416 ? It went to Widnes as 458516 12.10.23 but has subsequently been overtaken by 458424 and 458404, both of which went to Widnes as 458/5 after 458516.
 

wickham

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I make it 8 converted and returned (in order) 407 417 405 423 428 425 424 404, then 416 not yet come back and 520 went 23/1:
There was some "talk" about only 10 units being done, is this the case ? If so we are now up to 10.
 

The_Train

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Was it 458404 which returned to Bournemouth yesterday?
Any confirmation as to whether it was 458520 which moved to Widnes?
 

pigs bay

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I make it 8 converted and returned (in order) 407 417 405 423 428 425 424 404, then 416 not yet come back and 520 went 23/1:
There was some "talk" about only 10 units being done, is this the case ? If so we are now up to 10.
Thankyou for that update. After a while it's easy to loose track (excuse the pun)
 

Goldfish62

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There was some "talk" about only 10 units being done, is this the case ? If so we are now up to 10.
I really hope that's the case given SWR's rolling stock shortage and no plans to use the 458/4s. It would at least stabilise the current rolling stock situation pending introduction of the 701s.
 

norbitonflyer

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Although on the Class 701 thread it was claimed that Claire Mann stated last week that SWR will not be using the 458s so training and ASLEF views would appear to be irrelevant.

I didn't probe the claim further as was it was complete off-topic.
I thought she was leaving, so it's not her decision any more. Her successor may have other ideas
 

Class93

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I really hope that's the case given SWR's rolling stock shortage and no plans to use the 458/4s. It would at least stabilise the current rolling stock situation pending introduction of the 701s.
If the 701 rollout starts to pick up pace it’ll be absolutely fine.
 

Invincible

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TEW

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There will be no stock left for the suburban services soon
The number of LTP 455 diagrams goes up from 62 to 70 from February. It's difficult to see it be able to increase much further if more 458s are withdrawn.
 

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