SWR First Class - what is the point?

[JamieL]

Not a regular user of SWR but did so today between Waterloo and Southampton. Strikes me the First offering is very poor - 2+2 seating just like standard, no trolley service and First was basically a thoroughfare for everyone. Guard came through and threw a few freeloaders out but I can understand why some might not consider it to be First. Also, and not limited to First, there were non-stop announcements throughout the journey. The train was splitting at Southampton and they certainly wanted everyone to know.

 

[ivorytoast28]

Some services are very busy and it may therefore give a quiter environment. But from what I've seen it is always full too on the busiest morning services so not sure really, but ultimately if people will pay and fill it up, the railway won't complain

 

[Starmill]

It certainly provides very scant benefits nowadays.

 

[geoffk]

Strikes me the First offering is very poor - 2+2 seating just like standard

2+2 seating might be considered an upgrade if you have 2+3 in Standard class (a 450)!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Some services are very busy and it may therefore give a quiter environment. But from what I've seen it is always full too on the busiest morning services so not sure really, but ultimately if people will pay and fill it up, the railway won't complain

Yes, and as a local on the Alton line since 2010, I can confirm that first class is very, very well used (on weekdays) on that too. People are clearly happy to a pay a premium for the higher chance of getting a seat, if not the additional space, larger tables and slightly larger seat that comes with it also, and that's what matters really.

We shouldn't call for first class to be abandoned simply if the benefits of it don't seem that great, but only if it's sitting there empty 90% of the time and not being used, as was the case on Southeastern and LNR. If it's being filled and people are making use of it, let it be, and if you don't consider it worth it, no one is making you pay for a first class ticket.

 

[devon_belle]

At least with SWR you get larger seats (sometimes more comfortable too) and amenities like wireless charging and curtains. On Southern you only get a nice napkin to rest your head on!

 

[DelW]

It's all part of SWR's quality reduction programme - the 444s had comfortable 2+1 seating until SWR reconfigured them as part of their refurbishment. (The 450s were always poorer in both classes, so even SWR couldn't make them much less comfortable.)

They were built with catering provision too, though I'm unsure how often that was actually available even in SWT's time. IIRC it was rarely available on the Pompey stoppers that I used at the time.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It's all part of SWR's quality reduction programme - the 444s had comfortable 2+1 seating until SWR reconfigured them as part of their refurbishment. (The 450s were always poorer in both classes, so even SWR couldn't make them much less comfortable.)

They were built with catering provision too, though I'm unsure how often that was actually available even in SWT's time. IIRC it was rarely available on the Pompey stoppers that I used at the time.

I’m sure you must be well aware that the purpose of the programme was not deliberately to reduce quality, but to increase seating capacity.

 

[DelW]

I’m sure you must be well aware that the purpose of the programme was not deliberately to reduce quality, but to increase seating capacity.

It's just an unfortunate side-effect that most of SWR's changes have reduced the quality of both trains and services.

 

[[.n]]

I’m sure you must be well aware that the purpose of the programme was not deliberately to reduce quality, but to increase seating capacity.

I'm not convinced it wasn't a goal as well
I still prefer the 1st class on the 444 but mainly for things like less busy, quieter, etc.

 

[Sealink]

I think First Class on the Waterloo Exeter line still has 2+1 seating, but certainly from my neck of the woods, Dorchester South being my nearest station, First Class isn't worth it.

 

[winks]

Exeter to Waterloo is still 2 + 1 with comfy seats. Shame they have removed some of the doors as this ruins the ambience of First Class. The last thing you want is to hear the raucous of standard class areas !

 

[kristiang85]

Exeter to Waterloo is still 2 + 1 with comfy seats. Shame they have removed some of the doors as this ruins the ambience of First Class. The last thing you want is to hear the raucous of standard class areas !

I'm surprised you can hear it over the noise of the trains

(Which is actually why I like getting these ones, as the noise drowns out the tinny music etc people insist on playing these days)

 

[fgwrich]

It's all part of SWR's quality reduction programme - the 444s had comfortable 2+1 seating until SWR reconfigured them as part of their refurbishment. (The 450s were always poorer in both classes, so even SWR couldn't make them much less comfortable.)

They were built with catering provision too, though I'm unsure how often that was actually available even in SWT's time. IIRC it was rarely available on the Pompey stoppers that I used at the time.

The irony of SWT's 450 First Class was that they used the same seats as Southerns 1st batch of 377s, though it was it's own small compartment in the middle of the coach and was reasonably alright. Though the worst has to be the First Class of the 458s - which used the same Grammer seat's as FGW's Standard Class - making Standard Class more worth more than First.

Exeter to Waterloo is still 2 + 1 with comfy seats. Shame they have removed some of the doors as this ruins the ambience of First Class. The last thing you want is to hear the raucous of standard class areas !

For now anyway, they were supposed to have been refurbished / reseated some time ago, but like everything else on SWR it's slipped so far down the queue I don't think it'll be happening now. More frustratingly thought, plug sockets would be more than welcome now!

 

[Deepgreen]

If you think SWR is bad, try Southern!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

If you think SWR is bad, try Southern!

And indeed, a major difference between the two: I hardly ever see first class occupied on Southern.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

And indeed, a major difference between the two: I hardly ever see first class occupied on Southern.

Back in the day, when peak hour trains were invariably heavily loaded, in particular on the Brighton Main Line, having a ticket valid for the "first class" section, was often the only way of getting a seat on weekday trains into/out of Central London.

 

[RPI]

Certainly at the western end of the WoE, when there are actually trains running, 1st class may as well be declassified as it always looks to be full of gangs of college kids playing music out loud on their phones.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Back in the day, when peak hour trains were invariably heavily loaded, in particular on the Brighton Main Line, having a ticket valid for the "first class" section, was often the only way of getting a seat on weekday trains into/out of Central London.

And honestly, when that's the case, good for First Class - keep it. It may not be any more comfortable or luxurious, but if it's an option to almost guarantee a seat on rammed 12 carriage trains that cannot be extended (Southern can't be blamed for how busy London is in rush hour so long as they're not short-forming) and people are using it, then by all means it should be kept.

I don't see it used these days, mind you.

 

[Kite159]

(The 450s were always poorer in both classes, so even SWR couldn't make them much less comfortable.)

Depends if you think sitting behind the cab over the wheels is a downgrade to sitting in the centre of a coach in a middle coach.

----

As for 1st class on SWR, no doubt the DfT are keeping an eye on the number of 1st class season ticket holders and if they drop to a low level they might do away with 1st class like they did on South Eastern/London Northwestern. But I agree most of the trains I use on the West of England either 1st class is mostly empty (might get 1 or 2 'genuine' looking passengers on cheap 1st class advances) or busy with the sort whom you know probably don't have 1st class tickets (especially if 1st class is at the front of the train so harder for the guard to manage). Just needs some more RPIs to pop up and to take details of those whom go "oh sorry, I didn't realise, I will move" chancers.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Just needs some more RPIs to pop up and to take details of those whom go "oh sorry, I didn't realise, I will move" chancers.

In fairness, signage is good on the diesels thanks to the antimacs, and that's about it. The Desiros have very small signs on the windows about the size of a funsize Twix, and although they have antimacs they only show the TOC logo, and do not say First or 1.

On a 444, less so a 450, if you boarded from the door nearest the cab, thus not passing through a second set of doors, I'd not be surprised if people really did innocently sit there and fail to realise. The seats look a hell of a lot more similar to the Standard class Grammars than the previous ones were.

 

[Kite159]

In fairness, signage is good on the diesels thanks to the antimacs, and that's about it. The Desiros have very small signs on the windows about the size of a funsize Twix, and although they have antimacs they only show the TOC logo, and do not say First or 1.

On a 444, less so a 450, if you boarded from the door nearest the cab, thus not passing through a second set of doors, I'd not be surprised if people really did innocently sit there and fail to realise. The seats look a hell of a lot more similar to the Standard class Grammars than the previous ones were.

They are the sort who will aim for 1st class knowing that it is 1st class on a busy train, and hope the guard doesn't come around to check tickets (which on SWR can be very hit & miss on the long distance routes).

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They are the sort who will aim for 1st class knowing that it is 1st class on a busy train, and hope the guard doesn't come around to check tickets (which on SWR can be very hit & miss on the long distance routes).

Are you saying this based on seeing the same people told to move each time or actively hearing them voice their intention to sit there without authority to - or is it conclusion drawn from something such as them wearing tracksuits, being teenagers, or something else like that from which stereotypical assumptions can be made?

I’m not asking that in an attacking or confrontational way, I promise, but I for one have really suffered from judgement on the part of railway staff (and probably secretly fellow passengers) in this way, back when I was in my early to mid teens and wearing my chavvy looking Nike sportswear (as any popular kid in my school did back then, god knows why looking back) in first class. I often bought first class tickets, and I often made mistakes too - Ascot to Guildford used to be relentlessly on and off declassified and reclassified, and several times I sat there completely innocently, genuinely thinking it was declassified when it wasn’t. I’m sure to someone middle aged sat across from me, it looked like I was trying to pull a fast one.

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

I often bought first class tickets, and I often made mistakes too - Ascot to Guildford used to be relentlessly on and off declassified and reclassified, and several times I sat there completely innocently, genuinely thinking it was declassified when it wasn’t. I’m sure to someone middle aged sat across from me, it looked like I was trying to pull a fast one.

I often lock open the First Class internal doors on Ascot to Guildford trains due to the high prevalence of anti-social behaviour on the line.

The local trouble-makers (and that's putting it politely) have figured out what the little green buttons above the doors do, and have made a habit of taking over the First Class compartments and locking themselves in there so they can smoke / vape / commit vandalism (delete as appropriate) in private.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I often lock open the First Class internal doors on Ascot to Guildford trains due to the high prevalence of anti-social behaviour on the line.

They constantly changed it. It was always in use when it was 450+458 operation pre 2014, and then it was exclusively standard only 456s 2014-2016, and then it became 456s and declassified 450s.

After a couple of years the 456s went, and 450s supposedly became reclassified again but some guards continued to push the green button and announce it was for standard class use, whereas others didn't. And then when they split the service, I think they declassified it again for Ascot to Aldershot, but kept it classified for Guildford to Farnham.

And on top of all that, you had Waterloo to Farnham via Staines trains, which were classified Waterloo to Ascot and declassified Ascot to Farnham all the while Reading trains had first class and Guildford 450s didn't, then became declassified the whole route, then became declassified Waterloo to Ascot and sometimes classified Ascot to Farnham depending on what guard you got, and then entirely declassified again.

Very, very confusing, and the classification in timetables wasn't always accurate or kept up with changes.

Back in late 2022, I was unfortunate enough to be on an Ascot Aldershot service approaching Frimley when the female guard was sexually harassed by a group of men. She asked for help over the tannoy. Some people are absolutely awful.

The local trouble-makers (and that's putting it politely) have figured out what the little green buttons above the doors do, and have made a habit of taking over the First Class compartments and locking themselves in there so they can smoke / vape / commit vandalism (delete as appropriate) in private.

On my way back from Portsmouth to Cardiff several weeks ago, two very loud women with a baby in pram and another small child entered the declassified first area (I had the right hand side table in the back row, an off duty GWR staff member had the left hand side one) spread over the two tables in the front row.

Once the off duty staff member (whose jackets and bags were all over the seat btw, so that's the last time I listen to a GWR guard who tells me not to put my luggage on the seat) alighted, they parked the buggy in the aisle, and forced the internal doors closed.

They were rather loud and obnoxious, but even though the main 3+2 standard class was full and standing, these selfish women closing the doors that said "First Class" and completely blocked the entrance to the area with the buggy anyway, did mean no one else tried to enter, and I had a table to myself the whole four hour journey. So I did sort of win from that.

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

They constantly changed it. It was always in use when it was 450+458 operation pre 2014, and then it was exclusively standard only 456s 2014-2016, and then it became 456s and declassified 450s.

After a couple of years the 456s went, and 450s supposedly became reclassified again but some guards continued to push the green button and announce it was for standard class use, whereas others didn't. And then when they split the service, I think they declassified it again for Ascot to Aldershot, but kept it classified for Guildford to Farnham.

And on top of all that, you had Waterloo to Farnham via Staines trains, which were classified Waterloo to Ascot and declassified Ascot to Farnham all the while Reading trains had first class and Guildford 450s didn't, then became declassified the whole route, then became declassified Waterloo to Ascot and sometimes classified Ascot to Farnham depending on what guard you got, and then entirely declassified again.

Very, very confusing, and the classification in timetables wasn't always accurate or kept up with changes.

Back in late 2022, I was unfortunate enough to be on an Ascot Aldershot service approaching Frimley when the female guard was sexually harassed by a group of men. She asked for help over the tannoy. Some people are absolutely awful.

Ah, I see. I only became a guard after that, although do remember the ex-Southern 456s on the line. I never felt particularly safe travelling on them - probably a combination of the dingy interior and the line itself.

Re your last point, sorry to hear about that - absolutely disgusting.

 

[RailWonderer]

Ah, I see. I only became a guard after that, although do remember the ex-Southern 456s on the line. I never felt particularly safe travelling on them - probably a combination of the dingy interior and the line itself.

Re your last point, sorry to hear about that - absolutely disgusting.

I always through that Ascot - Guildford was the poshest part of Surrey and when I've been in this area it's always felt that way, was this just at night?

Very, very confusing, and the classification in timetables wasn't always accurate or kept up with changes.

GWR have also been inconsistent with first on the North Downs, makes you wonder if they know it's a genuine revenue spinner and they want to keep it wherever viable, or if they're making their minds up as they go along on whether it's worth it but don't want to scrap it outright.

In my mind, if a train type has first, then all routes it operates on should have first classified, that's my thinking. Declassify only in exceptional delays and cancaellations, as the guard should do. If a local branch doesn't warrant it, use another type of train, or classify first if using a train type that has it.

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

I always through that Ascot - Guildford was the poshest part of Surrey and when I've been in this area it's always felt that way, was this just at night?

It's not so much Ascot and Guildford, but Ash, Aldershot, Frimley and Camberley which are the anti-social behaviour hotspots along that line - and it's not just at night either.

It does, however, spill over to Ascot and Guildford as the groups of kids on that line treat the train service like a free drinking / socialising den on wheels, and travel for multiple journeys without even leaving the train.

It's certainly one of the more unpleasant routes on the network. South Western Railway have recently introduced security guards to travel on trains along this line to assist guards.

I've heard Portsmouth to Southampton is worse, but I don't sign that so can't comment.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Southern first class is a joke. Some of the seats are positioned with their back AGAINST the window for goodness sake.

I looked into doing a first class SWR trip to Weymouth lately and gave up with the idea. Free refreshments would have tipped it over the line, but I won't pay extra for a seat that's actually less comfortable than the ones you get in standard class. Maybe on a 159 it would be better.

The 450 first class compartments are cramped and uncomfortable anyway. Don't get the point.

 

[CapitalStar378]

And indeed, a major difference between the two: I hardly ever see first class occupied on Southern.

On Southern Metro, first is always declassified so I'll always use it as it's right at the front on my Victoria train.

Quite why anyone would pay a massive premium for an antimacassar on other services is beyond me though.