SWR First Class - what is the point?

[Deepgreen]

And indeed, a major difference between the two: I hardly ever see first class occupied on Southern.

I do, but not necessarily by first class ticket holders!

I always through that Ascot - Guildford was the poshest part of Surrey and when I've been in this area it's always felt that way, was this just at night?

GWR have also been inconsistent with first on the North Downs, makes you wonder if they know it's a genuine revenue spinner and they want to keep it wherever viable, or if they're making their minds up as they go along on whether it's worth it but don't want to scrap it outright.

In my mind, if a train type has first, then all routes it operates on should have first classified, that's my thinking. Declassify only in exceptional delays and cancaellations, as the guard should do. If a local branch doesn't warrant it, use another type of train, or classify first if using a train type that has it.

Yes, it's been nothing short of farcical, and the staff don't know what's going on either! A disgrace.

 

[DelW]

The 450 first class compartments are cramped and uncomfortable anyway. Don't get the point.

Well, the standard class seats on 450s are even more cramped and uncomfortable. But first class seats in 450s were always very similar to standard class seats on the 444s.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

It's all part of SWR's quality reduction programme - the 444s had comfortable 2+1 seating until SWR reconfigured them as part of their refurbishment. (The 450s were always poorer in both classes, so even SWR couldn't make them much less comfortable.)

The 444 refurb was a SWT/Angel Trains proposal to increase capacity for the SWT direct award which never happened. This included removing the buffet and guards office and reducing the first class footprint.

DfT however using that proposal then mandated this capacity increase for the new franchise which meant whoever won would have delivered the same refurb.

 

[DelW]

The 444 refurb was a SWT/Angel Trains proposal to increase capacity for the SWT direct award which never happened. This included removing the buffet and guards office and reducing the first class footprint.

DfT however using that proposal then mandated this capacity increase for the new franchise which meant whoever won would have delivered the same refurb.

Fair enough, though I think I remember SWR trumpeting the refurbishments as "their" work at the time.

It's often very unclear who's pulling the strings in the convoluted and opaque world of contract relationships on the railway, so like most people I tend to blame the front line operator as the most obvious culprit, however unfair that might be.

 

[[.n]]

They are the sort who will aim for 1st class knowing that it is 1st class on a busy train, and hope the guard doesn't come around to check tickets (which on SWR can be very hit & miss on the long distance routes).

I used to see this all the time between Waterloo and Winchester - basically the commuters trying it on - you'd see the faces getting caught everyone now and then and proclaiming their innocence "I didn't know etc"

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Quite why anyone would pay a massive premium for an antimacassar on other services is beyond me though.

See post #17.

 

[JamieL]

I used to see this all the time between Waterloo and Winchester - basically the commuters trying it on - you'd see the faces getting caught everyone now and then and proclaiming their innocence "I didn't know etc"

I think entry into the first class section, other than in an emergency, should be chargeable - it would certainly be a revenue raiser. I remember boarding a Bristol bound train at Paddington one evening - the First class carriage was full but, before the train left, the conductor came in and shouted "tickets please". All but three people vacated.

What they should do is spot check witg multiple revenue protection officer and charge people without valid First tickets the full Anytime First fare for being in the compartment - would make a fortune for the railway!

 

[[.n]]

I think entry into the first class section, other than in an emergency, should be chargeable - it would certainly be a revenue raiser. I remember boarding a Bristol bound train at Paddington one evening - the First class carriage was full but, before the train left, the conductor came in and shouted "tickets please". All but three people vacated.

What they should do is spot check witg multiple revenue protection officer and charge people without valid First tickets the full Anytime First fare for being in the compartment - would make a fortune for the railway!

Could be tricky on the route I'm referencing - Waterloo-Weymouth - often a 10 coach train that splits/joins at Southampton/Bournemouth - so effectively there is usually a 1st class section in the "middle" of the train when at full length (not always sometimes in reverse formation its at the very front and very back)

 

[fgwrich]

Could be tricky on the route I'm referencing - Waterloo-Weymouth - often a 10 coach train that splits/joins at Southampton/Bournemouth - so effectively there is usually a 1st class section in the "middle" of the train when at full length (not always sometimes in reverse formation its at the very front and very back)

It would also be near impossible to police on the West of England sets, where 2 and 3 car 158 / 159s have first class sections every few coaches, and the 450s would be even worse if you want to walk through the train.

 

[antharro]

Agree with a lot of what's been said. Back in the day, it was often said that on SWT, 442 1st was the best, followed by 442 standard, which was on a par with 444 1st (except that had reclining seats), then 444 standard, which was on a par with 450 1st (I disagreed), then 450 standard.

These days with the 442s gone and the 444 1st "refurbished", I'd say excepting the 158/159s, the 444 standard seat is the most comfortable seat on SWR's network. Followed by 450 1st, with 450 standard and 444 1st on a par with each other.

Returning the question of "what is the point", I think the point is purely to provide a seat on services where there might not be one in standard. It certainly isn't going to be anything to do with comfort or added services. I've stopped upgrading on weekends; standard class is plenty good enough.

If passenger loadings were as they were pre-covid and had continued to increase then I could see 1st on the 450s being withdrawn in favour of more standard. Hopefully the 444 standard doesn't get refitted and downgraded as they've done with 1st.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Agree with a lot of what's been said. Back in the day, it was often said that on SWT, 442 1st was the best, followed by 442 standard, which was on a par with 444 1st (except that had reclining seats), then 444 standard, which was on a par with 450 1st (I disagreed), then 450 standard.

Although it’s worth noting the non-compartment first class on SWT 442s was the same seating as standard as they were originally standard seats.

 

[PedroHav]

I always feel sorry for someone who has bought a first class ticket only for the first class compartment to be invaded by the younger generation with quite a lot of antisocial behaviour - as witnessed on numerous occasions recently both on SWT and Southern.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I always feel sorry for someone who has bought a first class ticket only for the first class compartment to be invaded by the younger generation with quite a lot of antisocial behaviour - as witnessed on numerous occasions recently both on SWT and Southern.

This can happen on any operator!

 

[JamieL]

This can happen on any operator!

Not on those that do offer a decent First Class service. Avanti for example tend to do the ticket check early in the journey in the First compartments and the ongoing food and drinks service acts as a policing check against invasion. One thing Avanti does well!

 

[Bikeman78]

If you think SWR is bad, try Southern!

Certainly a far cry from the compartments in the CIGs. Though they were comprehensively trashed during the Connex era. The SWT compartments were pretty good right up to the end.

 

[GodAtum]

On Southern Metro, first is always declassified so I'll always use it as it's right at the front on my Victoria train.

Quite why anyone would pay a massive premium for an antimacassar on other services is beyond me though.

Pre-covid I had to pay for 1st class to get a seat in rush hour. Now it's not so bad so I can sit in standard.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I always feel sorry for someone who has bought a first class ticket only for the first class compartment to be invaded by the younger generation with quite a lot of antisocial behaviour - as witnessed on numerous occasions recently both on SWT and Southern.

Don't generalise an entire generation. I've had the displeasure of travelling alongside plenty of foul people in their middle ages.

 

[Jamesrob637]

I once travelled from Waterloo to Southampton on a SWT train when they were 2+1 seating. Was worth the small upgrade fee.

 

[cactustwirly]

There is no point on the 450s, as the journeys are short commuter routes.
The 444s should retain 1st as they operate longer distances to Southampton and Weymouth

 

[infobleep]

At least with SWR you get larger seats (sometimes more comfortable too) and amenities like wireless charging and curtains. On Southern you only get a nice napkin to rest your head on!

And with Southern branded trains and Thameslink branded ones, there are many lines or services where you can sit in a first class labelled carriage with a standard class ticket. I do it often.

 

[devon_belle]

And with Southern branded trains and Thameslink branded ones, there are many lines or services where you can sit in a first class labelled carriage with a standard class ticket. I do it often.

It does make you wonder why the metro lines are declassified. Is it just a relic of the days where a non corridor slamdoor or a 455 could turn up where first wasn't an option?

 

[infobleep]

And indeed, a major difference between the two: I hardly ever see first class occupied on Southern.

Perhaps they should get rid of it.

Back in the day, when peak hour trains were invariably heavily loaded, in particular on the Brighton Main Line, having a ticket valid for the "first class" section, was often the only way of getting a seat on weekday trains into/out of Central London.

I never see much checking of tickets in first class between Eaat Croydon and London Victoria in the peaks.

People have paid for first class journeys ans rhen they get invaded by people with Oyster, contactless or standard class tickets.

I always through that Ascot - Guildford was the poshest part of Surrey and when I've been in this area it's always felt that way, was this just at night?

GWR have also been inconsistent with first on the North Downs, makes you wonder if they know it's a genuine revenue spinner and they want to keep it wherever viable, or if they're making their minds up as they go along on whether it's worth it but don't want to scrap it outright.

In my mind, if a train type has first, then all routes it operates on should have first classified, that's my thinking. Declassify only in exceptional delays and cancaellations, as the guard should do. If a local branch doesn't warrant it, use another type of train, or classify first if using a train type that has it.

So what rolling stock should Thameslink use or would you have both ends running as first class?

Speaking of poshest parts. I use to wonder why the New Line Guuldford through Cobham didn't have first class. I mean there must be some richer people who would pay.

There is no point on the 450s, as the journeys are short commuter routes.
The 444s should retain 1st as they operate longer distances to Southampton and Weymouth

How long does a journey need to be before it is no longer considered short?

Would a 55 minute peak journey from Guildford to Clapham Junction be considered short?

Portsmouth to Waterloo is 1 hour 42 minutes on one of the fastest morning trains. I don't know if it's a 450 or 444 but there are journeys which would be a 450 on that route.

It does make you wonder why the metro lines are declassified. Is it just a relic of the days where a non corridor slamdoor or a 455 could turn up where first wasn't an option?

You also those those services that are only declassified Monday to Saturday but run with first class on Sundays.

I guess Sunday best and all that. This, from memory, includes Dorking to London Victoria and Epsom Downs to London Victoria.

 

[Bumpkin]

It does make you wonder why the metro lines are declassified. Is it just a relic of the days where a non corridor slamdoor or a 455 could turn up where first wasn't an option?

The Readings were declassified fairly recently (2019 or so) in preparation for the 701s that don’t have any first class provision.

The inner metro has probably been declassified for a long while, probably ever since the 455s were introduced in the 80s surely?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It does make you wonder why the metro lines are declassified. Is it just a relic of the days where a non corridor slamdoor or a 455 could turn up where first wasn't an option?

Until like 2015, everything other than Reading was 455 or 450/5, none of which had first class.

 

[infobleep]

What is the loadings for first class like on the Guildford to Farnham services Monday to Saturday and Guildford to Ascot services on Sunday? Does it get busy in the peaks Monday to Friday?

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

What is the loadings for first class like on the Guildford to Farnham services Monday to Saturday and Guildford to Ascot services on Sunday? Does it get busy in the peaks Monday to Friday?

On Weekdays, Guildford to Farnham services can get quite busy leaving Guildford in the evening peak.

But to be honest, the only time I ever see First Class being used is when the "anti-social type" (as I mentioned in a previous post) take over the compartment to fiddle with the internal doors / perform their anti-social behaviours behind a frosted door / deliberately irk you - but then that's usually outside of the peaks anyhow.

Very rarely have I actually seen a (likely) fare-paying passenger in there.

 

[[.n]]

There is no point on the 450s, as the journeys are short commuter routes.
The 444s should retain 1st as they operate longer distances to Southampton and Weymouth

Totally agree re the 444

 

[GodAtum]

Perhaps they should get rid of it.

I never see much checking of tickets in first class between Eaat Croydon and London Victoria in the peaks.

People have paid for first class journeys ans rhen they get invaded by people with Oyster, contactless or standard class tickets.


So what rolling stock should Thameslink use or would you have both ends running as first class?

Speaking of poshest parts. I use to wonder why the New Line Guuldford through Cobham didn't have first class. I mean there must be some richer people who would pay.


How long does a journey need to be before it is no longer considered short?

Would a 55 minute peak journey from Guildford to Clapham Junction be considered short?

Portsmouth to Waterloo is 1 hour 42 minutes on one of the fastest morning trains. I don't know if it's a 450 or 444 but there are journeys which would be a 450 on that route.


You also those those services that are only declassified Monday to Saturday but run with first class on Sundays.

I guess Sunday best and all that. This, from memory, includes Dorking to London Victoria and Epsom Downs to London Victoria.

Pre-Covid, I had a 1st class ticket from East Croydon - Victoria as I had better luck getting a seat. Only had ticket checks maybe once a year.

Also many years ago I had a 1st class ticket from East Croydon - Guildford, as even though it was going against the flow, the SWT train to Guildford in the morning peak was still very busy. It was the only way i could get a seat.

I would consider a long journey to be anywhere over 30 mins, as that's the lenght of time I can stand at my age

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

There is no point on the 450s, as the journeys are short commuter routes.
The 444s should retain 1st as they operate longer distances to Southampton and Weymouth

I’m not sure what Southampton has to do with anything. The fastest Portsmouth service takes half an hour longer than the train to Southampton. They need it because it goes onto Weymouth, sure, but Southampton is irrelevant.

The 444s run perhaps just slightly under 50% of the Portsmouth Direct Line, so it’d mean some Portsmouth services had first and not others, same for Portsmouth via Basingstoke and the Alton line. Sure you could declassify on everything except Weymouths, but does that not further demerit first class when it IS in use on those Weymouths?

 

[LUYMun]

It's not so much Ascot and Guildford, but Ash, Aldershot, Frimley and Camberley which are the anti-social behaviour hotspots along that line - and it's not just at night either.

It does, however, spill over to Ascot and Guildford as the groups of kids on that line treat the train service like a free drinking / socialising den on wheels, and travel for multiple journeys without even leaving the train.

It's certainly one of the more unpleasant routes on the network. South Western Railway have recently introduced security guards to travel on trains along this line to assist guards.

Not helped by the fact most of the stations on the Ascot-Guildford have limited ticket office hours, so most of the time it's a free-for-all for fare dodgers.