SWR future rolling stock provision

[pigs bay]

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...d-to-be-withdrawn-permanently.127422/page-207

It pains me so much to write this but i tend to agree, that it makes far more sense to replace the 442's with a common fleet ie the 350's as has been mentioned numerous times

One reason given for getting rid of the 442's is NOT to have too many different fleets and to have a uniform fleet of stock, so if they're ditching 442 they should also ditch 458 and concentrate on securing the 350's when they become available, and re designate them as 450/2

 

[WarrenTManager]

It pains me so much to write this but i tend to agree, that it makes far more sense to replace the 442's with a common fleet ie the 350's as has been mentioned numerous times, one reason given for getting rid of the 442's is NOT to have too many different fleets and to have a uniform fleet of stock, so if they're ditching 442 they should also ditch 458 and concentrate on securing the 350's when they become available, and re designate them as 450/2

That plan has three flaws:
Price - 458 lease will be cheaper
Availability - we have no idea when the full fleet of 730s would come in to release them
Bournemouth- SWR don’t maintain Desiro Classics, Bournemouth have overhauled 458s at C4 level for many years.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

That plan has three flaws:
Price - 458 lease will be cheaper
Availability - we have no idea when the full fleet of 730s would come in to release them
Bournemouth- SWR don’t maintain Desiro Classics, Bournemouth have overhauled 458s at C4 level for many years.

If the SWR May 21 timetable is the new benchmark they won't need the 458's once they have full compliment of 701's commissioned.

This 458 project will end up in same bin as the 442's once reality sets in.

 

[Journeyman]

That plan has three flaws:
Price - 458 lease will be cheaper
Availability - we have no idea when the full fleet of 730s would come in to release them
Bournemouth- SWR don’t maintain Desiro Classics, Bournemouth have overhauled 458s at C4 level for many years.

Yup. Can we please stop suggesting the 350s? Loads of people have now. It's not happening.

 

[Goldfish62]

If the SWR May 21 timetable is the new benchmark they won't need the 458's once they have full compliment of 701's commissioned.

This 458 project will end up in same bin as the 442's once reality sets in.

Agreed.

 

[DorkingMain]

It pains me so much to write this but i tend to agree, that it makes far more sense to replace the 442's with a common fleet ie the 350's as has been mentioned numerous times, one reason given for getting rid of the 442's is NOT to have too many different fleets and to have a uniform fleet of stock, so if they're ditching 442 they should also ditch 458 and concentrate on securing the 350's when they become available, and re designate them as 450/2

Sorry, but ideas about SWR getting the 350/2s are about as much of a fantasy as the 442 idea was.

For a start, 350/2s are 3+2 seated which is less than ideal.

They would also need modification from AC to DC, and would then need to be subsequently tested and cleared for the SWR network with that modification. The cost of this for just over 100 carriages would be expensive and wouldn't bring a great deal of benefit.

I also highly suspect the 350/2s have a high leasing cost, which is why WMT ditched them in favour of new trains. The 458s by contrast probably have a very low leasing cost, because there was never a hope of finding a new home for them.

They would also be a micro fleet for the purposes of route clearance, crew training, maintenance staff training etc. By contrast training is already in place for all of these on 458s.

There is a great deal of logic in choosing 458s as a known quantity. The amount of modification needed to get them mainline ready is (relatively) small.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Sorry, but ideas about SWR getting the 350/2s are about as much of a fantasy as the 442 idea was.

For a start, 350/2s are 3+2 seated which is less than ideal.

They would also need modification from AC to DC, and would then need to be subsequently tested and cleared for the SWR network with that modification. The cost of this for just over 100 carriages would be expensive and wouldn't bring a great deal of benefit.

I also highly suspect the 350/2s have a high leasing cost, which is why WMT ditched them in favour of new trains. The 458s by contrast probably have a very low leasing cost, because there was never a hope of finding a new home for them.

They would also be a micro fleet for the purposes of route clearance, crew training, maintenance staff training etc. By contrast training is already in place for all of these on 458s.

There is a great deal of logic in choosing 458s as a known quantity. The amount of modification needed to get them mainline ready is (relatively) small.


This is exactly it. A major issue was found with the retractioned 442s and it would have resulted in many many more millions to fix.

The modification is the addition of shoegear and running a cable to the front end of the traction converter. All modern 3 phase drives running off 25kv firstly convert the transformed voltage to DC before the converter chops up the DC to create a 3 phase supply very little cost and theres plenty of shoegear that can be robbed off the 442's! Remember the 350/1's were used for a short period of time on the E.Croydon to Milton Keynes service and as traction converters are the same as 450/444's shouldn't be a safety case issue.

The 350/2 fleet will be parked up soon so equal incentive on the leasing company to lower the cost to get them rehomed.

The wider issue here though is the lack of a national policy on how rolling stock should be deployed across the network in the post covid world

 

[DorkingMain]

The modification is the addition of shoegear and running a cable to the front end of the traction converter. All modern 3 phase drives running off 25kv firstly convert the transformed voltage to DC before the converter chops up the DC to create a 3 phase supply very little cost and theres plenty of shoegear that can be robbed off the 442's! Remember the 350/1's were used for a short period of time on the E.Croydon to Milton Keynes service and as traction converters are the same as 450/444's shouldn't be a safety case issue.

The 350/2 fleet will be parked up soon so equal incentive on the leasing company to lower the cost to get them rehomed.

The wider issue here though is the lack of a national policy on how rolling stock should be deployed across the network in the post covid world

Confused how the choice of 458s over 350/2s is a failure of rolling stock utilisation? 20-year-old 3rd Rail only stock are being given a new lease of life. It's not a failure of the system that some spare Desiros didn't happen to end up at the TOC that has some other Desiros.

There's still plenty of need for AC OHLE units across the country, I'm doubtful they will be parked up for long.

 

[D365]

The 350/2 fleet will be parked up soon so equal incentive on the leasing company to lower the cost to get them rehomed.

The Class 350/2 fleet is owned by Porterbrook just like the 458s. Makes more sense to sort a home for the 458s first.

 

[Journeyman]

The Class 350/2 fleet is owned by Porterbrook just like the 458s. Makes more sense to sort a home for the 458s first.

Everyone has failed to notice that the SWR Desiro fleet is maintained under contract with Siemens at Northam, and there's no way the 350s would fit. The 458s are already maintained at Bournemouth and there's capacity for them there.

Once again, can we just forget about the 350s?

 

[RealTrains07]

The 458s are already maintained at Bournemouth and there's capacity for them there.

well considering they are already at bournemouth you would think they already have capacity for them wouldnt you considering they are Bournemouth right now.

With the 442s going it just creates even more capacity at bournemouth.

 

[43096]

Everyone has failed to notice that the SWR Desiro fleet is maintained under contract with Siemens at Northam, and there's no way the 350s would fit. The 458s are already maintained at Bournemouth and there's capacity for them there.

Everyone? I mentioned it previously.

 

[pompeyfan]

Sorry, but ideas about SWR getting the 350/2s are about as much of a fantasy as the 442 idea was.

For a start, 350/2s are 3+2 seated which is less than ideal.

They would also need modification from AC to DC, and would then need to be subsequently tested and cleared for the SWR network with that modification. The cost of this for just over 100 carriages would be expensive and wouldn't bring a great deal of benefit.

I also highly suspect the 350/2s have a high leasing cost, which is why WMT ditched them in favour of new trains. The 458s by contrast probably have a very low leasing cost, because there was never a hope of finding a new home for them.

They would also be a micro fleet for the purposes of route clearance, crew training, maintenance staff training etc. By contrast training is already in place for all of these on 458s.

There is a great deal of logic in choosing 458s as a known quantity. The amount of modification needed to get them mainline ready is (relatively) small.


This is exactly it. A major issue was found with the retractioned 442s and it would have resulted in many many more millions to fix.

I do think those reasons are pretty insignificant as the 350s could have been adjusted internally, the refurb video of the SWR desiro fleet showed how easy it was to strip the inside to a shell.

the conversion to DC should have been pretty straight forward as others have mentioned.

the Siemens contract thing is also potentially a red herring as I thought WMT looked after the fleet themselves. There’s nothing to stop SWR doing the same at Bournemouth. They should have plenty of pit experience of desiros too.

I think the issue is probably down to the cost of the lease but I would have thought the 458s would have been paid off by now but there’s probably still finance outstanding on the desiro fleet.

 

[Journeyman]

Everyone? I mentioned it previously.

I know, but it keeps getting ignored.

 

[Dan15812]

Why can't they order more 701's to therefore cascade and refurbish 450's with 3+2 to 2+2, to run on mainline services!

 

[Domh245]

Why can't they order more 701's to therefore cascade and refurbish 450's with 3+2 to 2+2, to run on mainline services!

What services would you put these additional 701s on to free up 450s?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I do think those reasons are pretty insurmountable as the 350s could have been adjusted internally, the refurb video of the SWR desiro fleet showed how easy it was to strip the inside to a shell.

the conversion to DC should have been pretty straight forward as others have mentioned.

the Siemens contract thing is also potentially a red herring as I thought WMT looked after the fleet themselves. There’s nothing to stop SWR doing the same at Bournemouth. They should have plenty of pit experience of desiros too.

I think the issue is probably down to the cost of the lease but I would have thought the 458s would have been paid off by now but there’s probably still finance outstanding on the desiro fleet.

My suggestion is along your lines BOMO is handed to Siemens and transfer the 444's over there then there will be room for the 350's.

I'd say this situation has resulted in SWR realising the mess the 442 project has got into and the limited usage time left on them if 2024 was there stay of execution. So they went to dept of transport with this hair brained scheme to try and save face. Covid is just convenient air cover for both parties.

Where else will the 350's go when every operator is faced with more stock than they need currently and unless the govt pushes on with more electrification where is the demand going to come from? Everyone knows common fleets are where the savings come from so having just Desiros and Aventra is economically sound.

Ultimately though SWR will have more than enough 701's to not even need the 458's is my forecast. What is needed is a national strategy over rolling stock and that needs some clear understanding of what is expected from the industry and that needs Shapps Williams review to enable it otherwise we will get individual TOCs doing what they want when they should just be running the service.

 

[Dan15812]

What services would you put these additional 701s on to free up 450s?

Any services to Reading, Weybridge and Alton plus any suburban services with 450's will ultimately get cascaded to mainline services.

Getting 444 style seats with armrest and tables!

701's would be used on services to Alton, which I think is fair enough given passengers can change at Woking for 444 luxury.

 

[swt_passenger]

I do think those reasons are pretty insurmountable as the 350s could have been adjusted internally, the refurb video of the SWR desiro fleet showed how easy it was to strip the inside to a shell.

You mean “surmountable”...

 

[pompeyfan]

You mean “surmountable”...

Oops... thank you!

 

[swt_passenger]

Oops... thank you!

It’s ok - too early in the morning...

 

[Snow1964]

As the title of the thread is future SW rolling stock, I do wonder if the 458 solution is seen as interim (more like 7-12 years than 15-20 years)

Its fairly clear that resurrecting the 442s was a money pit, and has been stopped as alternative of 458 is now better value, over the 7-12 year timeframe.

My guess is a new long distance standard unit is on the cards for late 2020s, not to replace the 444s, but a replacement for the 159s and 458s and maybe even Portsmouth-Cardiff services. (I don’t rule out bit of tinkering with franchise boundaries, but that is not for this thread).

I can see a new 5car 23-24m express unit to new design (or more likely an adaptation of design for another line). Tri-mode (diesel, 25kv and 750v dc). Internally fitted out more like outer suburban than intercity. Probably 100-110mph. A standardised production run could easily extend to replacing trains like GWRs castle short HST, especially if services to Cardiff get the new train type

I am making big assumptions here, but I don’t rule out electrification to Salisbury by late 2020s (and onwards towards Bath) which is why I think they will look at a standardised design (and some Wessex routes could easily be a joint SWR-GWR service, or their successor).

So my prediction for 10 years time is a fleet with the 701s, 444s, 450s and a new common type replacing 158, 159, 458.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

As the title of the thread is future SW rolling stock, I do wonder if the 458 solution is seen as interim (more like 7-12 years than 15-20 years)

Its fairly clear that resurrecting the 442s was a money pit, and has been stopped as alternative of 458 is now better value, over the 7-12 year timeframe.

My guess is a new long distance standard unit is on the cards for late 2020s, not to replace the 444s, but a replacement for the 159s and 458s and maybe even Portsmouth-Cardiff services. (I don’t rule out bit of tinkering with franchise boundaries, but that is not for this thread).

I can see a new 5car 23-24m express unit to new design (or more likely an adaptation of design for another line). Tri-mode (diesel, 25kv and 750v dc). Internally fitted out more like outer suburban than intercity. Probably 100-110mph. A standardised production run could easily extend to replacing trains like GWRs castle short HST, especially if services to Cardiff get the new train type

I am making big assumptions here, but I don’t rule out electrification to Salisbury by late 2020s (and onwards towards Bath) which is why I think they will look at a standardised design (and some Wessex routes could easily be a joint SWR-GWR service, or their successor).

So my prediction for 10 years time is a fleet with the 701s, 444s, 450s and a new common type replacing 158, 159, 458.

Tinkering with franchise boundaries is part of the underlying issue though as they are no longer relevant. This is where the Shapps-Williams review vision is needed to enable a wholesale reassessment of the way the industry is structured and that then leads to onto how you parcel up services to various concessions and then what rolling stock is required. So you could say Exeter - Waterloo would fit better in a SW region service group who would need to run a hybrid fleet where as for SWR that would be an unnecessary small fleet to manage. So as im sure GWR have spare Azumas why not fit shoegear to those and run them up the West of England. OK pure speculation I appreciate but if no one takes a holistic overview the industry will never be able to organise itself to run as a cost effective but useable service and the treasury will force its hand to adopt short term savings which wont look pretty.

 

[D6975]

the Siemens contract thing is also potentially a red herring as I thought WMT looked after the fleet themselves. There’s nothing to stop SWR doing the same at Bournemouth. They should have plenty of pit experience of desiros too.

The WMT 350s are maintained at a depot called Northampton Kings Heath Siemens Depot. I would have thought that this implies that Siemens are maintaining them. Possibly just a name of course, but doubtful.