SWR Strike Action: Strikes every day in December except 1st, 12th, 25th & 26th

[pompeyfan]

How less safe is it for the guard when they close the doors?

Is it less safe for passengers when the driver opens and closes the doors?

I don’t want to rehash 3 year old debates, so all I will say is that 701s should have the ability to count coaches into the platform, so in the event of a stop short by the driver, the coaches should still fail safe and not release any doors not correctly accommodated. They should also eliminate wrong side door releases.

Many fleets retain guard open as an extra layer of safety, as the guard should cross-check everything is as it should be so in theory provides an extra layer of safety.

Who closes the doors and what’s safer, that’s a whole different minefield with arguments and counter arguments which we’ve all heard years ago, and would probably be left in the past.

 

[greaterwest]

They do, but I understand they're not wired up?

How else would the guard dispatch the train from the middle/rear cab?

 

[Carlisle]

How else would the guard dispatch the train from the middle/rear cab?

If they’re similar to some other types of unit I can think of there’s control buttons on the bulkhead behind the driver that are operational but the ones on the desk may not be .

 

[Meerkat]

Elaborate....

Only inner suburban drivers would be DCO, so why change T&Cs for drivers out in the sticks?

 

[Bigfoot]

Only inner suburban drivers would be DCO, so why change T&Cs for drivers out in the sticks?

But if you push it through now with about half of the drivers never being affected by the dco element come new stock in a decade ish, boom, they've got no reason to cause problems then as it's all drivers t&cs and they (meaning the driver grade on swr) have operated dco even though some depots may have not.

 

[Meerkat]

Fair point. It’s a trade off - depends how soon the rest might go DCO (ie how long you are paying outer drivers extra for no extra work). And whether you think you can win a vote without diluting the ‘electorate’ with drivers who gain without extra work.
Of course you are assuming that when the time comes the outer drivers shrug and say “well it is what we are paid for” or insist that they are now being given more work so expect a(nother) pay rise!

 

[Dougal2345]

Heard an automated announcement on a Bournemouth-bound train to-day to the effect that first class has been declassified.

Not sure if it's just for 'Air Show' trains, but if anyone's taking one to-morrow and it's still in force, you might want to move out of your cramped standard class 2+2 seating and sample the luxury first class...um, 2+2 seating. Oh, probably not worth the bother actually.

 

[theironroad]

Only inner suburban drivers would be DCO, so why change T&Cs for drivers out in the sticks?

Because all SWR mainline drivers are employed on the same contracts , so any change to pay or major t and c will affect all depots.

When Waterloo, Wimbledon etc eventually become part of TFLrail then obviously things can change, until then it's one block.

 

[theironroad]

It won’t be a battle there is no unity within the drivers grade across the network. No good working to rule because too many drivers would still work free days & not every driver know what the “rules” are

Unfortunately Trainee/New drivers, Drivers coming up for retirement will see pound signs and county depot will see pounds signs and as far as they would be concerned it won’t affect them as they have an extra person on board the train regardless. Plus the vote for the pay deal will coming in before Christmas meaning the back pay would be in payslips for Christmas.....meaning drivers see it as that’s Christmas paid for!

1) If new drivers don't know the "rules" then that lays firmly at the door of local reps and driver instructors for not telling them. It shouldn't be left to some bloke on his PNB in the messroom to tell people what their terms and conditions are.

2) Most drivers won't work free days if the agreement is withdrawn if their is a clear case made with clear objectives.

3) I'd suggest that is more concern by drivers at country depots for their guard colleagues who they generally know by name and often socialise with whether they joined 40 years ago or 2 weeks ago than is often the case at Waterloo or Wimbledon when their often seems to be no inclination to know who they are working with.

4) tomorrow is September, if you think that any deal is going to be done before Christmas this year I'd respectfully suggest you need med screening as this is going to take months to sort out and I'd be surprised if a deal is ratified before early next year.

 

[theironroad]

If they’re similar to some other types of unit I can think of there’s control buttons on the bulkhead behind the driver that are operational but the ones on the desk may not be .

Correct. The controls on bulkhead are active with a) a drivers key on in that cab and b) no other door control panel active.

The open/close buttons either side of the desk, usable from the seat , have never been in use since swr took delivery of desiros but imagine could be activated by Siemens in an overnight maintenance session.

 

[WA_Driver]

1) If new drivers don't know the "rules" then that lays firmly at the door of local reps and driver instructors for not telling them. It shouldn't be left to some bloke on his PNB in the messroom to tell people what their terms and conditions are.

2) Most drivers won't work free days if the agreement is withdrawn if their is a clear case made with clear objectives.

3) I'd suggest that is more concern by drivers at country depots for their guard colleagues who they generally know by name and often socialise with whether they joined 40 years ago or 2 weeks ago than is often the case at Waterloo or Wimbledon when their often seems to be no inclination to know who they are working with.

4) tomorrow is September, if you think that any deal is going to be done before Christmas this year I'd respectfully suggest you need med screening as this is going to take months to sort out and I'd be surprised if a deal is ratified before early next year.

1) I totally agree with you. However is isn’t always the case. Unions and local reps should be able to be present that the training school to promote/introduce themselves but then trainee drivers should have some responsibility as well to go and find this information out. They have a week of front end turns at their depot!

2) I am afraid I have to disagree with you on that. We have drivers across the network working on free days at this current time during guards strike action and there are certain local reps at depots that are working free days during strike action. What makes you think they won’t continue to do so, it’s pretty clear what this individuals think!

3) Are you sure? If they are so concerned for their colleagues why are some working free days on strike days....That quite an assumption to make about Waterloo & Wimbledon drivers about not knowing who their guard is.

4) I need to be med screened. Are you that blinkered or brain washed. For Andy Mellor to make a statement regarding driver open doors means one of two things

1. A deal in principle is in place or
2. A deal has been agreed privately behind closed doors and that it will be put driver quicker than you think....

And history always repeats itself. Look at how many other pay deals have been delayed and the suddenly “agreed” near Christmas time for the back pay to paid in and around November, December or January pay days!!

 

[infobleep]

The “GA deal” has the driver both opening and closing the doors on certain routes, with guards retaining door competency as well. How did you understand it?

I thought the guard closed the doors on GA.

Also people are saying SWR should have just done the GA deal but if the driver opens and closes the doors them isn't this the GA deal? What is different?

 

[infobleep]

I don’t want to rehash 3 year old debates, so all I will say is that 701s should have the ability to count coaches into the platform, so in the event of a stop short by the driver, the coaches should still fail safe and not release any doors not correctly accommodated. They should also eliminate wrong side door releases.

Many fleets retain guard open as an extra layer of safety, as the guard should cross-check everything is as it should be so in theory provides an extra layer of safety.

Who closes the doors and what’s safer, that’s a whole different minefield with arguments and counter arguments which we’ve all heard years ago, and would probably be left in the past.

One argument I don't remember reading previously, although to be fair I didn't read every single page, was on guard safety when the doors are being opened and closed. SWR claim it a safety risk but I don't know how much of one it actually is as I don't feel I can trust what SWR actually say!

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought the guard closed the doors on GA.

I think the “GA deal” is about the trains still coming into service, it is described here:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...th-greater-anglia.150510/page-12#post-3554696

 

[theironroad]

1) I totally agree with you. However is isn’t always the case. Unions and local reps should be able to be present that the training school to promote/introduce themselves but then trainee drivers should have some responsibility as well to go and find this information out. They have a week of front end turns at their depot!

2) I am afraid I have to disagree with you on that. We have drivers across the network working on free days at this current time during guards strike action and there are certain local reps at depots that are working free days during strike action. What makes you think they won’t continue to do so, it’s pretty clear what this individuals think!

3) Are you sure? If they are so concerned for their colleagues why are some working free days on strike days....That quite an assumption to make about Waterloo & Wimbledon drivers about not knowing who their guard is.

4) I need to be med screened. Are you that blinkered or brain washed. For Andy Mellor to make a statement regarding driver open doors means one of two things

1. A deal in principle is in place or
2. A deal has been agreed privately behind closed doors and that it will be put driver quicker than you think....

And history always repeats itself. Look at how many other pay deals have been delayed and the suddenly “agreed” near Christmas time for the back pay to paid in and around November, December or January pay days!!

There are some drivers working free days during the dispute, but certainly at my depot it's been only 1 person so far, there is definetly a number of people who would normally work their guaranteed freed days who have declined to make themselves available. I'll take your word for driver reps working a FD during rmt strike days, and that would certainly be disappointing. However, a lot of drivers do think that the current dispute does not concern them at the moment a s technjcalky the drivers grade represented by aslef is not in dispute , while there are also a few not working rostered duties on strike days.

I love your optimism that any substantive talks have come to a deal already, if the rumour I heard is true (and I'll accept it's a messroom rumour) is that the company have an very long list of items that they want to talk about. I'd still be surprised if a deal is reached anytime soon.

 

[Meerkat]

Because all SWR mainline drivers are employed on the same contracts , so any change to pay or major t and c will affect all depots.

When Waterloo, Wimbledon etc eventually become part of TFLrail then obviously things can change, until then it's one block.

Is it too difficult for the railway just to give suburban drivers a different contract?

 

[pompeyfan]

Several drivers at several depots are working FD after a quick look at The Hub, as you say, ‘it’s not their dispute’.

 

[DennisM]

Could the reason for stating their intention, rather unexpectedly in my opinion, for full DOO on 701’s be tactical by SWR. Therefore making a compromise of driver open guard close much more palatable than had they came out with that as their preferred method of operation initially. Both sides will have to compromise but will also be able to claim it as a win to save face.

Is it too difficult for the railway just to give suburban drivers a different contract?

The whole point of the union is have one united workforce with greater bargaining power. If there were two different drivers grades then a strike (or threat of) by only one group would be far less effective. Theres always debates regarding which groups are of greater value. Despite the outer depot drivers racking up more miles and travelling faster, those working suburban services stop at more stations, encounter more intensive signalling and usually have knowledge of more traction types.

 

[theironroad]

Is it too difficult for the railway just to give suburban drivers a different contract?

I'm not too sure of the legalities, but I don't think they'll try it until the franchise gets formally split.

GWR and aslef have taken 10 years to harmonize the three different divisions of the Great Western franchise, so to deliberately split another one seems unlikely as both parts would still be part of the SWR franchise. As I've said before I can see the metro parts coming under tfl rail at some point.

 

[Meerkat]

So we have wasteful and inappropriate employment contracts for union political reasons.
And that is national political as bringing suburban services to a halt would be locally dramatic enough even if the outer space were working.

 

[Meerkat]

GWR and aslef have taken 10 years to harmonize the three different divisions of the Great Western franchise, so to deliberately split another one seems unlikely as both parts would still be part of the SWR franchise. As I've said before I can see the metro parts coming under tfl rail at some point.

What was the driver for harmonisation? Ie unless there was overlap between the duties why do the three sets of GWR drivers need the same contracts?

 

[theironroad]

Several drivers at several depots are working FD after a quick look at The Hub, as you say, ‘it’s not their dispute’.

...and plenty ore who have decided not to because they feel very uncomfortable working when they don't need to on a strike day.
Additionally, certainly in the earlier days a number of drivers did work a FD then donated a sizeable portion, if not all of it to a guards solidarity fund.

 

[dctraindriver]

Several drivers at several depots are working FD after a quick look at The Hub, as you say, ‘it’s not their dispute’.

Or ‘shown’ as working, think a few I know forgot strike action so aren’t working them.....

 

[Goldfish62]

I thought the guard closed the doors on GA.

The drivers close the doors on the new stock. That was agreed with the RMT.

 

[Carlisle]

Could the reason for stating their intention, rather unexpectedly in my opinion, for full DOO on 701’s be tactical by SWR. Therefore making a compromise of driver open guard close much more palatable than had they came out with that as their preferred method of operation initially. Both sides will have to compromise but will also be able to claim it as a win to save face.
.

I think it was universally acknowledged by all sides from the outset that the RMT would almost certainly agree driver open guard close without a strike ballot even taking place., so that’s unlikely now to be seen as a genuine compromise unless SWR choose total capitulation

 

[74A]

Could the reason for stating their intention, rather unexpectedly in my opinion, for full DOO on 701’s be tactical by SWR. Therefore making a compromise of driver open guard close much more palatable than had they came out with that as their preferred method of operation initially. Both sides will have to compromise but will also be able to claim it as a win to save face.

SWR have already conceded that there will be a second person on every train. The time saved from having driver close the doors is 15 to 20 seconds per stop. When you add up the number of stops made on the suburban routes every day that is a lot of time saved. Thats the benefit that SWR are not prepared to give up.

 

[DennisM]

SWR have already conceded that there will be a second person on every train. The time saved from having driver close the doors is 15 to 20 seconds per stop. When you add up the number of stops made on the suburban routes every day that is a lot of time saved. Thats the benefit that SWR are not prepared to give up.

Those are some extremely optimistic figures, suburban services outside the peaks with light passenger loadings are potentially only stationary for around 30 seconds as it is. A guard can check a 10 coach train from a central vantage point on the platform far quicker than a driver inspecting 10 camera feeds, even then only seeing the doors themselves so having to then crawl out of the station to keep the cameras feeds live. Anyone that thinks DCO saves a huge amount of time should stand on platforms 11/12 at Clapham Junction and observe side by side Southern and SWR.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

I do not think even the RMT know what they want anymore. Even if they guaranteed a Guard on every train they would say no that's not good enough. It started off as a dispute over having a safety critical fully competent Guard on board now it has evolved to the Guard must open and close the doors. If they offered them the Greater Anglia deal even that would not be good enough.

Surely as long as their members have a secure, reasonably paid job that is all that matters.

All Southern services on platform 12 at Clapham Junction are dispatched by the SWR platform staff.

 

[Bridger]

Is it too difficult for the railway just to give suburban drivers a different contract?

Drivers sign a multitude of routes, some drive both suburban and longer distance. It's not as clear cut as two separate drivers grades... Not that it'd be right to make two grades in any case.

 

[Ethano92]

Those are some extremely optimistic figures, suburban services outside the peaks with light passenger loadings are potentially only stationary for around 30 seconds as it is. A guard can check a 10 coach train from a central vantage point on the platform far quicker than a driver inspecting 10 camera feeds, even then only seeing the doors themselves so having to then crawl out of the station to keep the cameras feeds live. Anyone that thinks DCO saves a huge amount of time should stand on platforms 11/12 at Clapham Junction and observe side by side Southern and SWR.

I admit the savings may be optimistic but it comes from being able to pull up to the end of the platform knowing your fully accommodated since it's a more uniformed fleet and releasing the doors pretty much straight away rather than the more lengthy process of a guard having to get out of the train and check it's fully accommodated first before then going back and releasing the doors. The dispatch process of the guard, by nature, not even being on the train once all the doors are closed then having to get on, close the door then signal to the driver must also on average be longer.

Doesn't Clapham junction use platform staff for dispatch so a guarded train or DOO train uses the same peocedure.