SWT Super Off Peak Travelcards

[The Colonel]

Here in SWT land we have the added variety of a Super Off Peak Travelcard which is valid into London after 11.00 a.m. and back anytime except between 16.00 & 19.00 (ish).

For a travelcard I always assumed this enabled one trip from your origin station to Boundary Zone 6 & return coupled with unlimited travel in the travelcard area. This is indeed what SWT state in their tickets section:-

If you are travelling from outside London Zones 1-6, you can add a Day Travelcard to an Anytime, Off Peak or Super Off Peak Day Return ticket and save yourself money on buying separate Day Return and Travelcard tickets. The combined ticket gives you one return trip from your station to the first station in London Zones 1-6, then unlimited travel within Zones 1-6.

They contradict this in the terms and conditions by saying

Return travel time:
- Not valid on trains leaving: London Waterloo or Victoria between 1600 and 1900; Vauxhall between 1604 and 1904; Clapham Junction between 1607 and 1909. All times are inclusive, Monday to Friday*.
- Valid at any time at weekends and public holidays.

AFAIK no other TOC has a super off peak return or travelcard but I stand corrected.

My point is thus - how can SWT unilaterally restrict a travelcard legally in their area when I assume that TfL set the conditions?

Their example quotes Basingstoke so for my money I'd get a SOP return Basingstoke to BZ6 and travelcard thereafter. So I could use the travelcard from Waterloo to Elephant & Castle by underground at 16.01 and then get a FCC train to Wimbledon within the travelcard zone no problem and then get SWT services to Basingstoke if I wanted, or indeed go from Wimbledon to Wansdworth Town via Kingston quite legally between 16.00 - 19.00 but not go from Clapham Jct to Waterloo during the same hours. Indeed for the restricted stations/hours I could go from Victoria to Balham through Vauxhall, then on to West Brompton though C Jct on other operators services - a rather large anomaly.

Obviously they restrict it physically by blocking the tickets at the appropriate barriers but how does it stand legally?

Michael

 

[thefab444]

The restrictions are a bit ambigous. You can use any train from Victoria, Waterloo, Vauxhall or Clapham Junction between those times providing you don't leave the zones covered by your travelcard.

 

[LexyBoy]

The restrictions are a bit ambigous. You can use any train from Victoria, Waterloo, Vauxhall or Clapham Junction between those times providing you don't leave the zones covered by your travelcard.

Correct. The part between your origin (or destination in the return direction) station and BZ6 take on the same restrictions as the appropriate return ticket. Within the Zones, there is no restriction as the ticket held is a Travelcard, unrestricted after 0930. I wouldn't expect you to have any trouble with this, staff in London will know the Travelcard restrictions better than those of outboundary tickets.

I would expect the barriers to accept the Travelcard during these times, but I could be wrong (depends on which restrictions are coded into the ticket). Somewhere like Paddington where trains are non-stop to outside the Zones I'd expect such a ticket to be rejected.

AFAIK no other TOC has a super off peak return or travelcard but I stand corrected.

Apart from FGW, Chiltern, East Coast, Southeastern, EMT...

 

[dzug2]

Paddington (mainline) seems programmed to reject all off peak tickets in peak hours - even though some are valid.

and superoff peak travelcards are fairly new - the actual returns have been about a while. If I hadn't just checked I'd have been sure FGW didn't do them

 

[island]

You forgot Virgin

 

[radamfi]

Within the Zones, there is no restriction as the ticket held is a Travelcard, unrestricted after 0930.

So if you got a Super Off Peak Day Travelcard which didn't allow arrival into London until 1055, for example, are you still allowed to start using the Travelcard at 0930? This might happen if you bought a Super Off Peak Day Travelcard in advance but decide to travel into London early instead on an Anytime Day Single.

 

[LexyBoy]

So if you got a Super Off Peak Day Travelcard which didn't allow arrival into London until 1055, for example, are you still allowed to start using the Travelcard at 0930? This might happen if you bought a Super Off Peak Day Travelcard in advance but decide to travel into London early instead on an Anytime Day Single.

Yes.

I'm not sure the situation would be if the Travelcard ticket didn't allow BoJ, as it would necessitate "starting short" to use the Travelcard. I'd think that technically it would not be allowed, but I think the chances of it being picked up on are very slim.

 

[MikeWh]

I'm not sure the situation would be if the Travelcard ticket didn't allow BoJ, as it would necessitate "starting short" to use the Travelcard. I'd think that technically it would not be allowed, but I think the chances of it being picked up on are very slim.

By it's very nature, break of journey is completely meaningless on a travelcard. Once you get within zone 6 the ticket conditions change to that of the travelcard, even to the point where you can have used the return trip out of the zones, make your own way back in, and continue using the travelcard up to 0430 the next morning.

 

[LexyBoy]

By it's very nature, break of journey is completely meaningless on a travelcard. Once you get within zone 6 the ticket conditions change to that of the travelcard, even to the point where you can have used the return trip out of the zones, make your own way back in, and continue using the travelcard up to 0430 the next morning.

I wasn't sure whether the ticket is considered as two separate entities - a Super Off Peak Return to BZ6 plus a Travelcard, or a single ticket which must be used in combination.

Your reasoning does make sense though, as the two "subtickets" have different restrictions so only the ones for the part being used can apply. Furthermore, there's nothing to say that one must use the outward journey of a return, so in fact there is no need to "start short" as I originally stated - it can be considered unused, with the Travelcard and return portion used.

 

[swt_passenger]

They contradict this in the terms and conditions by saying

You didn't quote the whole T&C though, and because the next paragraph actually reads:

"Please note: Super Off-Peak Day Travelcards are valid from London Waterloo or Victoria, Vauxhall and Clapham Junction during the restricted times mentioned above, but only if your journey is wholly within London Zones 1-6."

most of your question is already answered.

That's the T&C here: http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/comparetickets.aspx#83968

...and yes, you can return during the blackout period by using your 'travelcard' to a suitable station, and joining a train that stops beyond Clapham Jn but still within the Zones, eg at Surbiton - I've done this a couple of times, but it's a lot of faffing around to save a few quid once you consider none of the longer distance main line services stop until Woking.

 

[button_boxer]

...and yes, you can return during the blackout period by using your 'travelcard' to a suitable station, and joining a train that stops beyond Clapham Jn but still within the Zones, eg at Surbiton

But according to the terms the train you join at Surbiton can't be one that left Waterloo between 1600 and 1900 as that would be covered by the blackout (which says "not valid on trains leaving Waterloo between ...", as opposed to "not valid to join trains at Waterloo between ...")?

 

[The Colonel]

You didn't quote the whole T&C though, and because the next paragraph actually reads:

"Please note: Super Off-Peak Day Travelcards are valid from London Waterloo or Victoria, Vauxhall and Clapham Junction during the restricted times mentioned above, but only if your journey is wholly within London Zones 1-6."

most of your question is already answered.

...and yes, you can return during the blackout period by using your 'travelcard' to a suitable station, and joining a train that stops beyond Clapham Jn but still within the Zones, eg at Surbiton - I've done this a couple of times, but it's a lot of faffing around to save a few quid once you consider none of the longer distance main line services stop until Woking.

All I can say is DOH!!
I wasn't having a good morning as you can see.

 

[radamfi]

I would be amazed if a bus inspector who sees your Super Off Peak Day Travelcard being used at 0930 gets his Avantix out and says you couldn't have got here this early!

 

[swt_passenger]

But according to the terms the train you join at Surbiton can't be one that left Waterloo between 1600 and 1900 as that would be covered by the blackout (which says "not valid on trains leaving Waterloo between ...", as opposed to "not valid to join trains at Waterloo between ...")?

Well I do have an email from them agreeing to 'joining trains', because I challenged the fact that the restriction used is different to what is written on the sticky labels on the TVMs, which imply your second restriction...

Oh and to further add to that, I just remembered that the Restriction Code BE, now refers specifically to not joining trains AT the particular stations: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/SCO_BE.pdf

It's arguable that the published T&C don't correctly describe the restriction, but then what's new...

 

[David Goddard]

So, can you confirm please:

If travelling back to Fleet, can I board a train at Surbiton, which has left Waterloo between 1600 and 1900?

Likewise, if travelling back to Wokingham, can I do the same at say Staines?

If so, then there is technically nothing stopping you joining this train at Waterloo with the pretence of getting off at Surbiton/Staines, but staying on all the way back to Fleet/Wokingham etc.

 

[swt_passenger]

So, can you confirm please:

If travelling back to Fleet, can I board a train at Surbiton, which has left Waterloo between 1600 and 1900?

Likewise, if travelling back to Wokingham, can I do the same at say Staines?

If so, then there is technically nothing stopping you joining this train at Waterloo with the pretence of getting off at Surbiton/Staines, but staying on all the way back to Fleet/Wokingham etc.

Yes, but it must be an outboundary travelcard, and Staines is outside the zones, so you'd have to be in a position to 'join' this train somewhere east of Clapham Jn, but no further than Feltham. That shouldn't ever be a problem.

 

[David Goddard]

Thanks. I somehow had thought that Staines was the last in Z6, not Feltham. Doesnt matter as the principal is the same.

Therefore, as all Wokingham trains call at Feltham the restriction can not have any effect on this route.

It will therefore only be an issue for those who want to leave London on express services where the first stop after CJ is outside of the travelcard zones.

 

[globetrotter]

Thanks. I somehow had thought that Staines was the last in Z6, not Feltham. Doesnt matter as the principal is the same.

Therefore, as all Wokingham trains call at Feltham the restriction can not have any effect on this route.

It will therefore only be an issue for those who want to leave London on express services where the first stop after CJ is outside of the travelcard zones.

I believe this is an extremely important principle. I had been thinking the very same thing myself and actually drafted a posting then doubting myself thought better of it. It affects not just SWT but lots of other routes where there are restrictions and the train calls at stations within the Z6 boundary on the return journey. Any more views on this?

 

[island]

By it's very nature, break of journey is completely meaningless on a travelcard. Once you get within zone 6 the ticket conditions change to that of the travelcard, even to the point where you can have used the return trip out of the zones, make your own way back in, and continue using the travelcard up to 0430 the next morning.

That's arguable. And if you get an outboundary travelcard from a barriered station, the barriers at your origin will swallow it when you get back there.

 

[swt_passenger]

I believe this is an extremely important principle. I had been thinking the very same thing myself and actually drafted a posting then doubting myself thought better of it. It affects not just SWT but lots of other routes where there are restrictions and the train calls at stations within the Z6 boundary on the return journey. Any more views on this?

Mainly that it depends exactly what the actual restriction text says, as we were discussing following button_boxer's post last night...

BTW, SWT's restrictions must mainly achieve what they want, because their Super Offpeak is only available towards London from outside the zonal area, and they believe that the vast majority will normally want to return on the fastest mainline trains that in the evening peak are generally non-stop to stations well outside the zones. Passengers wanting to use stations within the zones like this limit themselves to a much reduced selection of trains, which shifts them away from the busiest trains - so job done.

 

[bb21]

That's arguable. And if you get an outboundary travelcard from a barriered station, the barriers at your origin will swallow it when you get back there.

I believe that you can keep the travelcard if you ask gateline staff. Like MikeWh has said, the validity of the travelcard does not finish when you get back to your origin station. You may choose to get back into London via another form of transport later and it is of no concern to barrier staff how the passenger gets back into London.

This certainly is the case at Watford Junction however I am aware that there are TfL contracted routes operating locally there.

 

[bnm]

BTW, SWT's restrictions must mainly achieve what they want, because their Super Offpeak is only available towards London from outside the zonal area, and they believe that the vast majority will normally want to return on the fastest mainline trains that in the evening peak are generally non-stop to stations well outside the zones. Passengers wanting to use stations within the zones like this limit themselves to a much reduced selection of trains, which shifts them away from the busiest trains - so job done.

That may be true for longer distance services, but there are still dozens of destinations outside the zonal area where the only option is a stopping service from Waterloo.

 

[MikeWh]

By it's very nature, break of journey is completely meaningless on a travelcard. Once you get within zone 6 the ticket conditions change to that of the travelcard, even to the point where you can have used the return trip out of the zones, make your own way back in, and continue using the travelcard up to 0430 the next morning.

That's arguable. And if you get an outboundary travelcard from a barriered station, the barriers at your origin will swallow it when you get back there.

Can you please enlighten me as to what part of what I said is arguable? Your point about barriers swallowing tickets with further validity is not confined to this issue as there are numerous other places where you have to be careful if breaking a journey before the end. As to the rest of what I said, the following is the part relating to out boundary travelcards on the NRE website, the site that claims to be the definitive source for rail queries. The page is http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/travelcards_oyster.html.

Travelcards purchased outside of the London Fare Zones area:

Travelcards can be purchased from most stations in the South East England area. Day Travelcard prices include the return fare to London plus travel in Zones 1-6. Travelcards valid for 7 days or longer can be purchased for any combination of adjoining zones which include Zone 6.

• Peak Day Travelcards are valid for travel at any time of day and up to the early hours of the following day provided the train you are using beyond the London Fare Zones area departs no later than 02:30. If you are already on a train by 02:30 you may continue your journey provided no further change of trains is made. Within the London Fare Zones area you may use the Travelcard until 04:29.
• Off-Peak Day Travelcards are valid for travel from whenever Off-Peak fares become available from your station – check our Journey Planner to see whether an Off-Peak fare is available when you wish to travel. Valid up to the early hours of the following day provided the train you are using beyond the London Fare Zones area departs no later than 02:30. If you are already on a train by 02:30 you may continue your journey provided no further change of trains is made. Within the London Fare Zones area you may use the Travelcard until 04:29. Railcard holders may purchase certain Off-Peak Day Travelcards at a discount.
• 7-day or longer period Travelcards are valid for travel at any time of day and up to the early hours of the following day provided the train you are using beyond the London Fare Zones area departs no later than 02:30. If you are already on a train by 02:30 you may continue your journey provided no further change of trains is made. Within the London Fare Zones area you may use the Travelcard until 04:29.

 

[wibble]

Thanks. I somehow had thought that Staines was the last in Z6, not Feltham. Doesnt matter as the principal is the same.

I think that catches a lot of people out as TfL buses stop outside the station!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That may be true for longer distance services, but there are still dozens of destinations outside the zonal area where the only option is a stopping service from Waterloo.

But people do have the option of excessing their fare up to the Off Peak Day Travelcard if they want... It might cost a few pounds more, but at least SWT don't ban off peak tickets in the evening, unlike some TOCs!