SWT's defunct Reading-Basingstoke service: where did it go?

[Rail.Fan]

I remember SWT turbostars going from the basingstoke bound Reading Train Station platforms. Does anyone know what route this was and why it no longer exists?

 

[Kite159]

Reading to Brighton service?

(seems an awful waste of a DMU for a service which travelled for the majority of the time on 3rd rail)

 

[30907]

Various destinations via Basing, mainly Brighton. Other services were EMU and therefore only ran from Basingstoke.

SWT withdrew the service some years ago - whether of their own free will I don't know.

Kite159 was faster.

 

[185143]

Various destinations via Basing, mainly Brighton. Other services were EMU and therefore only ran from Basingstoke.

SWT withdrew the service some years ago - whether of their own free will I don't know.

Kite159 was faster.

Possibly because the units went to TPE?

 

[Rail.Fan]

It would be good a service from Reading to Brighton to return.

 

[fgwrich]

Possibly because the units went to TPE?

Nope, as the 170s were replaced with 158s until the termination of the service at Basingstoke, and thus replacement of the DMU operated service with 450s until the removal of the service from the Franchise. I can't remember the official reason right now - I think it was removed from the SWT Franchise by the DfT at the last time of awarding the franchise back in '07 - No doubt the always helpful SWT Passenger will be along to explain later for you!

 

[TEW]

As far as I know it was replaced by the regular, hourly Southern service from Brighton-Southampton Central. The previous services were faster, but not at a standard hourly frequency.

 

[Helvellyn]

Nope, as the 170s were replaced with 158s until the termination of the service at Basingstoke, and thus replacement of the DMU operated service with 450s until the removal of the service from the Franchise. I can't remember the official reason right now - I think it was removed from the SWT Franchise by the DfT at the last time of awarding the franchise back in '07 - No doubt the always helpful SWT Passenger will be along to explain later for you!

Yes, removed as part of the 2007 franchise by the DfT to simplify the network. Extension of services beyond Exeter to Paignton, Plymouth and Penzance was part of the same cuts, although the Salisbury '6' did come in too (replacing FGW, who still operate some of the stations between Salisbury and Southampton even though they now only serve Romsey). SWT also Kept (and expanded) services to Bristol, which (in my view) makes it a shame Portsmouth-Bristol (I'd have separated off the Cardiff extenstion) never went to SWT.

I think part of the reason the Brighton services went was to allow Southern to expand services on the West Coastway, although that also allows them to operate well into SWT territory even though SWT had that right removed! (Southampton - Brighton; Southampton - Victoria; Portsmouth - Brighton; Portsmouth - Victoria; Portsmouth - Littlehampton). Oddly, FGW was able to keep its Brighton train.

 

[Chris M]

SWT also Kept (and expanded) services to Bristol, which (in my view) makes it a shame Portsmouth-Bristol (I'd have separated off the Cardiff extenstion) never went to SWT.

There is a lot of through-Bristol traffic on the Portsmouth-Cardiff route (which always seemed to be in need of longer trains). I'd be surprised if it was as high as 50% turnover at Temple Meads on average, although it's been a few years since I travelled the route.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

When Basingstoke-Reading gets electrified, would it be viable to extended all (or at least some) Reading-Waterloo trains to Southampton?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

When Basingstoke-Reading gets electrified, would it be viable to extended all (or at least some) Reading-Waterloo trains to Southampton?

Feasible, but there would need to be dual-fitted sections at both Basingstoke and Reading (where only the south-eastern bays have 3rd rail).
They would have to switch modes twice on each leg.
You would also need dual fitted stock, but there are plenty of nice 319s coming available.

There is talk of Southampton-Heathrow-Paddington trains if/when the Heathrow western link opens.

 

[Phil.]

I seem to recall a Basingstoke - to somewhere on the GEML (Colchester, Chelmsford?) w-a-ay back.

 

[PHILIPE]

I seem to recall a Basingstoke - to somewhere on the GEML (Colchester, Chelmsford?) w-a-ay back.

Norwich it was.

 

[greatkingrat]

There might have been one train that made it to Norwich, but I think most of them terminated at Ipswich or Colchester.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

When Basingstoke-Reading gets electrified, would it be viable to extended all (or at least some) Reading-Waterloo trains to Southampton?

Very unlikely, the SWML is pretty much at capacity, especially with SN there (although that's if and when they can be ar$3d to turn up), then you're going to have to have just a couple of specific platforms where the changeover from DC to AC and vice versa.

Then you can expect XC to whinge about it taking its revenue. :roll:

Also you'll need dual voltage stock and as the Waterloo - Reading service is scheduled to go over to 458/5 stock it's not going to happen.

 

[PHILIPE]

Info here on the topic of Norwich to Basingstoke:-

www.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Crosslink

 

[Bookd]

This service run by Angliia Railways started in May 2000 and lasted just over 2 years. There were 6 journeys a day, one ending at Norwich, one at Colchester, one at Chelmsford and one at Witham. The other 2 were just Basingstoke - Stratford. Stops were Basingstoke, Farnborough, Woking, Staines, Feltham, West Hampstead, Highbury and Islington, Stratford, Romford, Ingatestone, Chelmsford, Witham, Colchester, Ipswich, Stowmarket and Diss wiith occasional stops at Brentford, Willesden Junction and Camden Road. I used it a few times between Feltham and Stratford; it was withdrawn due to a mixture of lack of use and patching problems on the North London line.

 

[LexyBoy]

Very unlikely, the SWML is pretty much at capacity, especially with SN there (although that's if and when they can be ar$3d to turn up), then you're going to have to have just a couple of specific platforms where the changeover from DC to AC and vice versa.

Probably P7 at Reading. Leaving aside technical issues, I can't see that much demand for it - all it would be doing is removing one change from the western half of the Waterloo-Reading line for journeys to Basingstoke and beyond.

As a local service between say Ascot and Basingstoke, it'd be useful, but I doubt sufficiently so to justify it. It would also introduce the possibility of introducing delays - the Reading-Waterloo line is quite reliable currently, whereas minor delays are common on the congested Reading-Basingstoke line. To avoid this you'd need lots of padding which undoes the time saving you make with through running.

Also you'll need dual voltage stock and as the Waterloo - Reading service is scheduled to go over to 458/5 stock it's not going to happen.

When did that happen? The last I knew it was to be 450s with the 458s transferring to Windsor services... not really been keeping up.

 

[jopsuk]

The end game is 458/5s on the Reading route, when the Class 707 are introduced on the Windsor side suburbans. The 458s will have their 1st class restored then.

 

[LexyBoy]

Aha. So we'll get our "squeaky old trains" back then (as overheard on board a while back).

 

[fandroid]

When the SWT Turbostars started on the Reading-Brighton route they were poorly patronized. However, by the time they were pulled off by DfT, they were very popular. They provided an new extra 2 hourly fast service to Basingstoke (on top of the Cross-country hourly services). The other feature that was useful was they provided a fast route to Portsmouth from Basingstoke and other SW mainline stations south of Woking (changing at Fareham or Havant). The current Waterloo-Portsmouth via Basingstoke service is grindingly slow after Winchester. One sad feature of various service changes is that Portsmouth is now very poorly connected to the Midlands via Reading. Perhaps DfT don't regard Portsmouth as a real city, deserving an Intercity type service. The paths once occupied by the Turbostars from Reading to Winchester are now used by Crosscountry who extend alternate Reading terminating services to Southampton. Reading to Basingstoke could well do with 2 fast trains every hour all day, but the GWR shuttles fill the paths, despite fairly poor use at the intermediate stations in the off-peak.

 

[swt_passenger]

One other probable justification for removal of the Reading - Basingstoke leg of the through service was that it was only roughly every 3 hours, and it was possibly more useful to have a standard pattern on that route to make room for increasing freight trains. The relevant statement in the 2007 SW franchise ITT, which I've just found, was:

services between Brighton and Basingstoke/Reading via Fareham will be withdrawn. This will initially remove congestion from the Reading West area and provide additional capacity for freight. There will be no South Western services between Reading and Basingstoke.

(My bolding)

It would also eventually help XC extend their second service to Southampton in alternate hours, but this didn't happen initially.

As mentioned in a previous thread about this, the full through services on the route were really an off-peak only service, with many of the peak paths being used by additional half hourly Waterloo to Portsmouth via Eastleigh through services (that still run), and there were also gaps in the Brighton end to make room for the FGW Brighton trains (that still run).

The main justifications for the change can be found in the 2006 Consultation for the 2007 franchise, not sure if it is still online anywhere:

"However, we believe there is a strong case to modify the service pattern to the west of the South Western franchise area. The main purpose of these proposals is to address the current imbalance between the supply of resources within the franchise area, and the need to re-assign resources to the more demand-intensive parts of the network. But it also addresses the need to consider the affordability and value for money issues surrounding services that are currently financially marginal to operate."

then:

"removal of the direct SWT services between Reading and Brighton as most trips undertaken are between intermediate urban areas rather than end-to-end through journeys, but further analysis of train services provided by South Western and other TOCs in the Reading-Basingstoke- Southampton-Brighton axes is required;"

I did a service summary for Reading - Brighton in a previous discussion here:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2151937&postcount=16

and included a table of arrivals and departures at either end of the route, attached here also:

 

[PHILIPE]

When the SWT Turbostars started on the Reading-Brighton route they were poorly patronized. However, by the time they were pulled off by DfT, they were very popular. They provided an new extra 2 hourly fast service to Basingstoke (on top of the Cross-country hourly services). The other feature that was useful was they provided a fast route to Portsmouth from Basingstoke and other SW mainline stations south of Woking (changing at Fareham or Havant). The current Waterloo-Portsmouth via Basingstoke service is grindingly slow after Winchester. One sad feature of various service changes is that Portsmouth is now very poorly connected to the Midlands via Reading. Perhaps DfT don't regard Portsmouth as a real city, deserving an Intercity type service. The paths once occupied by the Turbostars from Reading to Winchester are now used by Crosscountry who extend alternate Reading terminating services to Southampton. Reading to Basingstoke could well do with 2 fast trains every hour all day, but the GWR shuttles fill the paths, despite fairly poor use at the intermediate stations in the off-peak.

Portsmouth did have a XC service early in this millenium but like Liverpool, Poole and later Brighton got pulled by SRA/DFT

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Probably P7 at Reading. Leaving aside technical issues, I can't see that much demand for it - all it would be doing is removing one change from the western half of the Waterloo-Reading line for journeys to Basingstoke and beyond.

As a local service between say Ascot and Basingstoke, it'd be useful, but I doubt sufficiently so to justify it. It would also introduce the possibility of introducing delays - the Reading-Waterloo line is quite reliable currently, whereas minor delays are common on the congested Reading-Basingstoke line. To avoid this you'd need lots of padding which undoes the time saving you make with through running.



When did that happen? The last I knew it was to be 450s with the 458s transferring to Windsor services... not really been keeping up.

It would have to be one of the high numbered platforms which have access to the dive under as using the other platforms would create the potential for conflicting moves and delays, using the high numbered platforms would minimise the risk.

 

[387star]

Deleted

 

[PHILIPE]

Mind you with mention of portsmouth i am reminded that had a direct penzance service I believe as well as virgin 158s shared with wales and west to places like liverpool or was it blackpool

I know it is off topic but when did ATW stop serving waterloo and penzance thanks[/QUOTE]

Portsmouth to Liverpool it was. ATW Waterloo finished I think in 2002 and Penzance approx 2003

 

[pompeyfan]

Am I right in thinking there was also an evening peak service from Brighton to Waterloo Via the Coastway, Eastleigh and Basingrad? Formed usually of a 450?

 

[swt_passenger]

Am I right in thinking there was also an evening peak service from Brighton to Waterloo Via the Coastway, Eastleigh and Basingrad? Formed usually of a 450?

In 2006 the opposite service definitely existed, a morning peak through service from Waterloo to Brighton, 1Y13 0712 Waterloo - 1014 Brighton.

Can't find a proper through service under one headcode the other way, however 1Y42, 1757 Brighton - 2018 Basingstoke then coupled to another ECS unit at Basingstoke which together formed the 2L72 2024 to Waterloo.

If someone has a 2006 passenger timetable it may shed some light on how the latter train appeared in the timetable.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It would have to be one of the high numbered platforms which have access to the dive under as using the other platforms would create the potential for conflicting moves and delays, using the high numbered platforms would minimise the risk.

Down direction through P7 doesn't cause any crossing conflicts, but does need a train to join the down main for a short distance. A few hundred yards of additional track to give an independent route off the Southern into P7 would have given much more flexibility, but it's all somewhat academic because all the known proposals are to link services from the Basingstoke direction with the route towards London anyway, and that routeing is properly provided for in both directions, to/from both mains and reliefs.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Those 170's were a right PITA.

Used to work them and they were forever failing with WSP, AWS, low oil pressure, low fuel pressure, two engines going BANG (pistons out!), you name it we had it.

The afternoon departure from Reading was a nightmare as you got to Winchester and it was the college kid "express" Shawford, Eastleigh, Hedge End, Botley, Fareham and if you made Havant RT you'd be lucky and if you didn't then they'd let the Brighton stopper in front of you and you'd have to follow it all the way to Worthing if not Brighton. Consequently you'd be late coming back too.

The locals from Chichester onwards all thought that 1st class was a freebie or the bike store, I was always throwing them out of 1st class for being loutish & smoking, even heard one couple having sex, When Harry met Sally style!

They also thought bikes were carried free on the 170's, lost count on how many got chinged up for £3! Or got off.

Coming back was just as stupid as you couldn't really achieve much more than 30 or 40 mph as you were booked behind the Littlehampton all the way to Arundel junction and if the kids gave that grief then you were screwed again, as they'd let the Bognor/Portsmouth in front of you.

And things haven't improved one jot over there, they're so bleedin' lax with timekeeping its amazing anyone gets anywhere on the same week, let alone the same day! I used to like going over there with a slammer, but 170's were a nightmare and a 170/159 combo was a pain too, as there were restrictions for which way around they could be due to stepping distances & you had to be careful which platform you went into at Brighton, for example you couldn't go into Platform 3, because the train wouldn't fit in behind the signal that's half way along it.

I do miss going over there, but I don't miss the "clientele" that's over there.

 

[387star]

Deleted