Taken to court because of lack of railcard

[Sof]

Hello, I hope someone can help me understand my situation. In November I travelled from new cross to Gatwick airport but didn’t realise that my railcard expired. I had bought a ticket with a 26-30 railcard discount. The discount was around £5. During the journey a ticket inspector asks for my ticket and railcard, I realised that I didn’t have a railcard to present and so the inspector gives me the possibility to send a copy of my railcard online to GTrail. A couple of days later I renew my railcard and send the copy of it.
Now in January I’ve received a letter with a single justice procedure for me to pay a fine of £135 plus the £5 of the discount that I got from ticket and to go to court to plead guilty or not. I’m not sure what to do.

 

[30907]

Hello, I hope someone can help me understand my situation. In November I travelled from new cross to Gatwick airport but didn’t realise that my railcard expired. I had bought a ticket with a 26-30 railcard discount. The discount was around £5. During the journey a ticket inspector asks for my ticket and railcard, I realised that I didn’t have a railcard to present and so the inspector gives me the possibility to send a copy of my railcard online to GTrail. A couple of days later I renew my railcard and send the copy of it.

Unfortunately, buying a railcard after the event doesn't alter the fact that you didn't have a valid railcard when you travelled.

Now in January I’ve received a letter with a single justice procedure for me to pay a fine of £135 plus the £5 of the discount that I got from ticket and to go to court to plead guilty or not. I’m not sure what to do.

Is this the only letter you have received? And who was it from? Perhaps you could upload a copy (removing personal info) so we can understand what is being asked.

 

[Sof]

Unfortunately, buying a railcard after the event doesn't alter the fact that you didn't have a valid railcard when you travelled.

Is this the only letter you have received? And who was it from? Perhaps you could upload a copy (removing personal info) so we can understand what is being asked.

Yes, this is the only letter I’ve received. And I’ve 21 days to respond to it. The letter is from govia Thameslink.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes, this is the only letter I’ve received. And I’ve 21 days to respond to it. The letter is from govia Thameslink.

Surely the letter is offering you the opportunity to settle the matter out of court OR be summonsed?

 

[Sof]

I was sent this document.

 

[trenopendo]

I am surprised they decided to levy charges against you without any previous attempt to settle or to ask for your version of the events.

Are you sure/confident this is the first communication you received after the incident?

I would strongly suggest, in no uncertain terms, that you immediately hire a solicitor. This is a serious matter that has now proceeded to court.

 

[Sof]

Yes, this is the first communication I received after the incident.

 

[island]

I am surprised they decided to levy charges against you without any previous attempt to settle or to ask for your version of the events.

Are you sure/confident this is the first communication you received after the incident?

The first communication would have been the notice given on the train instructing the OP to send a copy of his/her Railcard.

 

[Haywain]

Now in January I’ve received a letter with a single justice procedure for me to pay a fine of £135 plus the £5 of the discount that I got from ticket and to go to court to plead guilty or not.

The amounts mentioned are what the railway will be seeking in damages and costs, and these will be applied on top of the fine imposed by the court on finding you guilty. The fine will add a considerable amount on top, in the region of £400. You might want to get in touch with GTR's prosecutions team as a matter of urgency to see if you can settle out of court for an amount much closer to £140.

 

[AlterEgo]

The amounts mentioned are what the railway will be seeking in damages and costs, and these will be applied on top of the fine imposed by the court on finding you guilty. The fine will add a considerable amount on top, in the region of £400. You might want to get in touch with GTR's prosecutions team as a matter of urgency to see if you can settle out of court for an amount much closer to £140.

This.

 

[Haywain]

I would strongly suggest, in no uncertain terms, that you immediately hire a solicitor. This is a serious matter that has now proceeded to court.

Even at this stage, I'm not sure there is any great benefit in doing that.

 

[AlterEgo]

I am surprised they decided to levy charges against you without any previous attempt to settle or to ask for your version of the events.

Are you sure/confident this is the first communication you received after the incident?

I would strongly suggest, in no uncertain terms, that you immediately hire a solicitor. This is a serious matter that has now proceeded to court.

There is no need to involve a solicitor at this stage. It is not likely to be cost effective for such a low level offence, especially where settling out of court is relatively common.

 

[Sof]

How would I get in contact with the GTR prosecutions team?

 

[WesternLancer]

How would I get in contact with the GTR prosecutions team?

Was it a Thameslink service? or a Southern Railway Service?

If Thameslink see:

Contact us | Thameslink

Find out how to get in touch with us at Thameslink.

www.thameslinkrailway.com

Twitter​

Tweet us @TLRailUK

Phone​

Call 0345 026 4700
Please note that during the Coronavirus Outbreak, our phone contact hours have been temporarily reduced to 08:00 - 18:00

Post​

Write to us at:
Govia Thameslink Railway
PO Box 10240
Ashby-De-La-Zouch
LE65 9EB

If Southern see:

Contact us | Southern Railway

Get detailed contact information for Southern.

www.southernrailway.com

(note different phone number / twitter etc)


What I would do

Contact GTR customer services ASAP (try ringing to start with but follow it up by e-mail so you have a full written record of your efforts to contact them.

Ask if they can give you details of how to contact their prosecutions team (when you phone) - ask the same by e-mail (and post a copt of the same e-mail to the Ashby de la Zouch address) and make it clear your e-mail should be forwarded to the prosecutions team - in the e-mail write to explain that you want to contact them urgently to discuss the papers you have had about this incident from the court eg a v brief gist of your 1st post) - you could even attach the scans of your letters as posted here and send them with your message as that will help with the ref numbers etc.

Then also post (registered signed for post) a copy of that also to GTR's HQ postal address

Registered office: 3rd Floor, 41-51 Grey Street, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 6EE. Govia Thameslink Railway Ltd is a wholly owned subsidiary of Govia Ltd.

Make it clear this is for the attention of the GTR Prosecutions Team on the envelope

Keep copies of all written materiel (e-mail / letter) take a photo of the letter before you send it (the envelope) and retina the receipts that Royal Mail will give you for the registered post (you will have to go to your nearest post office to send that) - keep a screen grab or print out of the delivery tracking info Royal Mail will then send you.

There is every possibility that GTR will drop the prosecution and negotiate out of court settlement with you if you try to do that. They have an interest in doing so usually. It will likely cost you less and hopefully avoid you getting a criminal record which I assume you would prefer to avoid.

Good luck - and head back to the forum as and when you need further advice.

 

[Haywain]

What I would do

Contact GTR customer services ASAP (try ringing to start with but follow it up by e-mail so you have a full written record of your efforts to contact them.

Ask if they can give you details of how to contact their prosecutions team (when you phone) - ask the same by e-mail (and post a copt of the same e-mail to the Ashby de la Zouch address) and make it clear your e-mail should be forwarded to the prosecutions team - in the e-mail write to explain that you want to contact them urgently to discuss the papers you have had about this incident from the court eg a v brief gist of your 1st post) - you could even attach the scans of your letters as posted here and send them with your message as that will help with the ref numbers etc.

Then also post (registered signed for post) a copy of that also to GTR's HQ postal address


Make it clear this is for the attention of the GTR Prosecutions Team on the envelope

Keep copies of all written materiel (e-mail / letter) take a photo of the letter before you send it (the envelope) and retina the receipts that Royal Mail will give you for the registered post (you will have to go to your nearest post office to send that) - keep a screen grab or print out of the delivery tracking info Royal Mail will then send you.

This is really rather excessive. A phone call to ask for the number of the prosecutions team should suffice, especially as time is of the essence. Copies of emails asking for contact details won't be terribly helpful to anyone.

How would I get in contact with the GTR prosecutions team?

An old thread has this phone number, which may be worth a try: 020 7922 4923 (edit: not the current phone number, see post #25 below)

 

[WesternLancer]

Also - does anyone have any useful advice as to whether the OP should yet plead guilty or not guilty on the court docs at this stage or sit tight in the hope they can commence / or even conclude a dialogue with GTR ref a settlement before court action?

From what @Sof has said they are guilty of the charge* so would seem little point in pleading not guilty - but IMHO, and others posted above, their aim should be to seek to avoid court action, and I would have thought there is a reasonable chance of doing so (unless something we do not know eg the OP has been caught with ticket irregularities on previous occasions for example, so GTR have opted to just 'throw the book at them' this time.)

* for OP's benefit you are guilty of travelling without a valid ticket, which is a criminal offence in England, by virtue of having a ticket bought with a railcard discount when you held no valid railcard. Seems harsh but AFAIK this is the law. The ability to send a copy of your railcard later to the train company (the forgotten railcard policy) only applies if you had a valid railcard but simply forgot to have it with you when you traveled (the policy allows you to do this about once during the year of your railcard's validity) - I am assuming when your ticket was inspected on the train you honestly believed your railcard was still in date and probably mentioned that to the ticket inspector.

It is good that you renewed your railcard straight away tho - as it supports the line of argument that you made an honest mistake on this occasion, have taken steps to put that right, had no intention to evade fares on the day or since, and wish to pay the correct fare for travel - all points that you can make in your request to them to consider a settlement before court action.

 

[Haywain]

Also - does anyone have any useful advice as to whether the OP should yet plead guilty or not guilty on the court docs at this stage or sit tight in the hope they can commence / or even conclude a dialogue with GTR ref a settlement before court action?

I would say leave it late in the 21 day process, and if contact has been made and no settlement is forthcoming please guilty. Otherwise, at a similarly late stage, plead not guilty as that defers the case to a court date to allow for settlement/withdrawal. If it still goes to court, I expect that a plea can be changed later when the date is known so as to take advantage of the discount for a guilty plea.

 

[WesternLancer]

This is really rather excessive. A phone call to ask for the number of the prosecutions team should suffice, especially as time is of the essence. Copies of emails asking for contact details won't be terribly helpful to anyone.


An old thread has this phone number, which may be worth a try: 020 7922 4923

I agree it is indeed belt and braces! I should have said 'start off with'...'and if you can't get through then escalate to...'

But I would stand by the point that when you are confident you have accurate contact details for the Prosecutions Team you need to make your case in writing, and be confident they have received it, and keep a record of it.

As we have seen on other threads, GTR Thameslink are not always covering themselves in glory over ticket inspection accuracy recently, or appeals over the consequences of their errors (I know a totally different matter to this - I am not saying this to raise false hope that the OP is being falsely accused of a ticket offence, I do not think they are), but you never know if you may need to turn up at court and at least say to the Magistrates 'well I have made every effort to avoid being here today and taking up the court's time over this but this company seem to simply ignore reasonable attempts to correspond with them...' But let's just say that hopefully the prosecutions team are better at knowing the ticketing rules than the staff who check oyster cards on board their trains...

I would say leave it late in the 21 day process, and if contact has been made and no settlement is forthcoming please guilty. Otherwise, at a similarly late stage, plead not guilty as that defers the case to a court date to allow for settlement/withdrawal. If it still goes to court, I expect that a plea can be changed later when the date is known so as to take advantage of the discount for a guilty plea.

Sounds like very good advice! Thanks, I'm sure that will be of help to the OP.

 

[30907]

I agree that you should try for an out of court settlement.

The following is speculative, but may explain why GTR have moved directly to prosecution: (content deleted, as they haven't done that).

 

[Sof]

Update: there was a phone number for the prosecutions team on the letter I received from them. I spoke to them asking for a out of court settlement and they informed me they had sent a letter for a fine payment. I never received that letter. Anyway they’re sending the letter again and I just need to pay a fine of £65 and my case will be deleted. Thank you so much for everyone’s help. I really appreciate it.

 

[WesternLancer]

Update: there was a phone number for the prosecutions team on the letter I received from them. I spoke to them asking for a out of court settlement and they informed me they had sent a letter for a fine payment. I never received that letter. Anyway they’re sending the letter again and I just need to pay a fine of £65 and my case will be deleted. Thank you so much for everyone’s help. I really appreciate it.

Great news - helpful update - thanks. I also think that is a reasonable sum they are asking for (tho of course v annoying for you to have to pay due to the oversight of the card being out of date)

I think going off advice of prev cases now this is now in the 'Court System' you need to be confident that when you make the payment it does actually stop the court case. I think others have advised on that before and may correct me or add to this but you probably need to get from GTR

- keep evidence that you have paid the sum being asked (£65 etc)
- written confirmation that GTR have dropped court case from GTR prosecutions team (eg along with receipt for the payment maybe)
- send copy of that to the court
- make sure court acknowledge it

to be 100% sure it does not go to court ' by mistake' and the 1st you hear about it is a court letter asking for your fine money....

As I say, others may be able to help on how to ensure this does not happen.

 

[Sof]

Okay, I’ll do that. Thank you.

 

[Haywain]

there was a phone number for the prosecutions team on the letter I received from them.

Is that the same number as I posted above?

 

[island]

Also - does anyone have any useful advice as to whether the OP should yet plead guilty or not guilty on the court docs at this stage or sit tight in the hope they can commence / or even conclude a dialogue with GTR ref a settlement before court action?

Now moot as the OP has been (re)offered a settlement that seems to have been lost in the post, but the charge seems to me to be to be void for duplicity, as its wording is a hodgepodge of two different offences (entering a train without a valid ticket, and failing to show a ticket when asked). It would have been an interesting defence to run.

 

[Sof]

No, there were two numbers on my letter. They are: 0330 095 6050/0330 095 6051.

 

[30907]

Update: Anyway they’re sending the letter again and I just need to pay a fine of £65 and my case will be deleted. Thank you so much for everyone’s help. I really appreciate it.

Excellent - and a very modest "administrative settlement" to boot (£90 plus fare seems to be the going rate!).

I have amended my recent post, as it was based on a false assumption so might mislead future visitors.

 

[Igor29]

Update: there was a phone number for the prosecutions team on the letter I received from them. I spoke to them asking for a out of court settlement and they informed me they had sent a letter for a fine payment. I never received that letter. Anyway they’re sending the letter again and I just need to pay a fine of £65 and my case will be deleted. Thank you so much for everyone’s help. I really appreciate it.

Hi @Sof I have found myself in a very similar position. Could you please tell me more detail in terms of the conversation you had with them? I would really appreciate it, if you could, I'm quite freaked out by this entire situation. Thank you very much!

 

[gray1404]

Hi @Sof I have found myself in a very similar position. Could you please tell me more detail in terms of the conversation you had with them? I would really appreciate it, if you could, I'm quite freaked out by this entire situation. Thank you very much!

You need to start a new thread in need to speak some prosecution section about your situation so you can be advised accordingly.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

You need to start a new thread in need to speak some prosecution section about your situation so you can be advised accordingly.

@Igor29 already has: see https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/thameslink-single-justice-procedure-notice.230453/