Taking a folding bike into a station during peak hours

[jon0844]

no harm in asking to fold it up at the barrier, its probably a case of someone said they would fold it up before they got on the train and then didn't which consequently ruined it for everyone.
Its not as if you can ride them on the platform anyway

But people do - quite a lot. Grown adults, not rebellious kids, too. Making someone fold the bike before they can enter the station/platform makes a lot of sense to me. Okay, so the sensible cyclists are slightly inconvenienced, but you can't go choosing who does and who doesn't have to fold their bikes unless you want a social media campaign started up to attack you for singling out individuals.

 

[bramling]

But people do - quite a lot. Grown adults, not rebellious kids, too. Making someone fold the bike before they can enter the station/platform makes a lot of sense to me. Okay, so the sensible cyclists are slightly inconvenienced, but you can't go choosing who does and who doesn't have to fold their bikes unless you want a social media campaign started up to attack you for singling out individuals.

Let's just ban everyone and everything from using the railway.

It would make life a lot easier for the staff, we could save a lot of money on capacity enhancements, and performance would improve dramatically too.

 

[jon0844]

Asking someone to fold their bike doesn't progress to mean banning everyone.

 

[bramling]

Asking someone to fold their bike doesn't progress to mean banning everyone.

No, but the point is that lots of people do things they shouldn't on the railway, so the logical extension of your idea is to ban everyone who might do something they're not supposed to.

In any case, just because the bike is folded at the barrier doesn't mean it will remain folded once out of sight of the barrier staff, so it doesn't solve the 'problem' anyway.

(It's also a pain for barrier staff as it yet another source of potential conflict).

 

[jon0844]

If someone is so arrogant as to unfold their bike once through the gate, just eject them from the station and refuse them travel. Simple.

Your extension is in no way logical. Asking someone to do something for what is likely safety reasons cannot possibly be extended to banning everyone.

 

[Andy-mc]

When I worked on platform one little thing that annoyed me was when you would ask someone to get off their bike and walk with it, but then they would just put one foot on a pedal and push themselves along like a scooter.

My main gripe with bikes was that our trains only had 2 bike spaces and if you told a cyclist that it was full they had a hissy fit as if it was their god given right to take their bike on board, I understood their frustration but when it was the same person each day and I'd told them about the reservation system I soon stopped caring.

 

[al78]

If someone is so arrogant as to unfold their bike once through the gate, just eject them from the station and refuse them travel. Simple.

Your extension is in no way logical. Asking someone to do something for what is likely safety reasons cannot possibly be extended to banning everyone.

Why not just eject the trouble makers when caught in the act, and leave the responsible ones alone.

I can't see the problem of wheeling a bike plus load to the beginning of the platform and then folding it and carrying it onto the train. I always do this when travelling too/from London and no member of staff has ever had a problem with me, nor have I caused any inconvenience to anyone else.

The point made which you missed is that once you adopt a philosophy of banning things because of a thoughtless minority where do you draw the line? People do annoying/inconvenient/stupid things regularly, if you ban an activity every time one person was potentially causing a problem or elevating risk of an accident, life would become very, very restrictive for all of us. Imagine if none of us could ever drive cars again because 1,500 people are killed on the roads every year.

 

[jon0844]

The actions of a few have stopped things for the many loads of times. And one day, I have no doubt that self driving vehicles will force people to give up driving on their own (or under very strictly controlled circumstances).

 

[bramling]

If someone is so arrogant as to unfold their bike once through the gate, just eject them from the station and refuse them travel. Simple.

So why not just eject the ones seen who are causing a problem in the first place? Avoids inconveniencing everyone else.

 

[kieron]

Making someone fold the bike before they can enter the station/platform makes a lot of sense to me.

Do you take a folding bicycle on trains often?

I find that it can sometimes be hard to appreciate the situations others face until you experience them. I don't, personally, so I'm thinking of it in terms of an instruction that someone who has a suitcase with wheels on it carries that through the barrier. They probably can do it, but it just makes everything harder.

If someone is so arrogant as to unfold their bike once through the gate, just eject them from the station and refuse them travel.

Who do you think will be there willing and able to do that?

 

[Andrew1395]

Even folded bikes, especially those non Brompton ones that fold in half, are a nuisance on full and standing trains. Personally I think many peak services are too busy to carry bikes on the sort of trains like the 350 used by London Midland. Obviously people who want to take a bike on a train will disagree, and we all have to give and take, but having been crushed against a bike in a vestibule; makes even a 20 minute journey quite unpleasant.

 

[bramling]

Even folded bikes, especially those non Brompton ones that fold in half, are a nuisance on full and standing trains. Personally I think many peak services are too busy to carry bikes on the sort of trains like the 350 used by London Midland. Obviously people who want to take a bike on a train will disagree, and we all have to give and take, but having been crushed against a bike in a vestibule; makes even a 20 minute journey quite unpleasant.

Too many people in this country, full stop.

It is worth remembering, however, that the folded bike taking up space on a London commuter train may well be your space to board the Underground train on the next stage of your journey.

 

[Bantamzen]

I'm sorry but I am still unable to see the problem with being asked to fold bikes prior to passing through barriers. If it is too heavy or inconvenient for the the rider then perhaps the rider ought to consider an alternative. Nearly every day I witnesses folding bike owners dumping their bikes in the doorwells then getting in the way of other passengers alao trying to board whilst they start to fold the bike.

More and more cyclists are using trains for part of their journeys, which means any reasonable measures in minimise disruption and space taken on trains are welcome ones for the majority of users who don't try to ram their bikes onto services.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The point made which you missed is that once you adopt a philosophy of banning things because of a thoughtless minority where do you draw the line? People do annoying/inconvenient/stupid things regularly, if you ban an activity every time one person was potentially causing a problem or elevating risk of an accident, life would become very, very restrictive for all of us. Imagine if none of us could ever drive cars again because 1,500 people are killed on the roads every year.

I don't think it's just banning things because of a thoughtless minority - it's also a question of, the rules need to be designed so they are clearly enforceable. And for that, it's very helpful if staff are easily able to tell when someone is or isn't breaking (or about to break) the rules.

A rule that bikes can only enter the platform if they are fully folded is easy to enforce - because it's easy to identify who is breaking the rules.

A rule that bikes can only enter the platform if they are going to be folded just before getting on the train is much harder to enforce - because at the time the bike is taken on the platform, you can't tell if the owner is actually intending to fold it in time. (And if they try to take it unfolded onto the train then you're in the realm of disruption to passengers and delayed services when you try to enforce the rule).

Like it or not, being easy to enforce is an important requirement for rules - even when sometimes that leads to rules being a bit less convenient for the people who have to follow them. That's true in general, not just for railways.

 

[bramling]

I don't think it's just banning things because of a thoughtless minority - it's also a question of, the rules need to be designed so they are clearly enforceable. And for that, it's very helpful if staff are easily able to tell when someone is or isn't breaking (or about to break) the rules.

A rule that bikes can only enter the platform if they are fully folded is easy to enforce - because it's easy to identify who is breaking the rules.

A rule that bikes can only enter the platform if they are going to be folded just before getting on the train is much harder to enforce - because at the time the bike is taken on the platform, you can't tell if the owner is actually intending to fold it in time. (And if they try to take it unfolded onto the train then you're in the realm of disruption to passengers and delayed services when you try to enforce the rule).

Like it or not, being easy to enforce is an important requirement for rules - even when sometimes that leads to rules being a bit less convenient for the people who have to follow them. That's true in general, not just for railways.

The point is that it's *not* easy to enforce, as there's absolutely nothing to prevent the bike being unfolded again once past the barrier. Add in the disruption of bikes being folded just in front of the barrier where space is normally constricted, and you're now in the territory of creating more issues than have been solved.
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I'm sorry but I am still unable to see the problem with being asked to fold bikes prior to passing through barriers. If it is too heavy or inconvenient for the the rider then perhaps the rider ought to consider an alternative.

Why on earth consider an alternative just to suit you?

When I was using a Brompton for a particular journey, I could arrive at my London terminus, and be at my ultimate destination within approximately 12 minutes. To do the same by Underground would take just as long, plus still require a walk of approximately 10 minutes on the end of it. This alternative was also less reliable as sometimes the first Underground train may be too busy to board, and normally at least one day of the week there would be some kind of disruption. The upshot of this would mean I'd have to be on a train leaving home 30 minutes earlier. With the same applying in the afternoon, this is 5 hours extra travel time per week.

Since you are so badly failing to see why folding the bike when entering the station is a needless inconvenience which causes more problems than it solves, one can only assume you've never used a folding bike, therefore are speaking from a position of ignorance. Evidently the TOCs are more informed on the matter, as it seems the relevant rules are that bikes are to be folded *on trains*.

Nearly every day I witnesses folding bike owners dumping their bikes in the doorwells then getting in the way of other passengers alao trying to board whilst they start to fold the bike.

A completely different issue.

More and more cyclists are using trains for part of their journeys, which means any reasonable measures in minimise disruption and space taken on trains are welcome ones for the majority of users who don't try to ram their bikes onto services.

Too many people in this overcrowded country.

 

[Bantamzen]

Why on earth consider an alternative just to suit you?

When I was using a Brompton for a particular journey, I could arrive at my London terminus, and be at my ultimate destination within approximately 12 minutes. To do the same by Underground would take just as long, plus still require a walk of approximately 10 minutes on the end of it. This alternative was also less reliable as sometimes the first Underground train may be too busy to board, and normally at least one day of the week there would be some kind of disruption. The upshot of this would mean I'd have to be on a train leaving home 30 minutes earlier. With the same applying in the afternoon, this is 5 hours extra travel time per week.

Since you are so badly failing to see why folding the bike when entering the station is a needless inconvenience which causes more problems than it solves, one can only assume you've never used a folding bike, therefore are speaking from a position of ignorance. Evidently the TOCs are more informed on the matter, as it seems the relevant rules are that bikes are to be folded *on trains*.

It seems very much to me that you do not consider how often people with bikes inconvenience other passengers. We are not taking about a once in a blue moon event here, I see it many times each week, inconsiderate bike owners paying no heed to basic politeness and common sense, often getting in people's way, causing delay and disruption, ignoring designated areas for bike storage, and even sometimes using their bike as a battering ram to secure themselves a spot on the platform or train. So if a member of station staff, or indeed a TOC takes it upon themselves to enforce additional codes of conduct that may slightly inconvenience the bike owners then that is fair enough. You cannot possibly be unaware just how much bad behaviour there is from your fellow cyclists, especially in London.

I am not saying that bikes should not be carried, but that cyclists should pay extra attention to the people aroumd them because there are few larger objects routinely carried on trains. So it is not too much to expect cyclists to be a bit more respectful of their surrounding fellow commuters instead of throwing hissy fits about having to carry their bikes. You choose to use it, you are not forced to. However the people around you have no choice when they are having to scramble over abandoned bikes, folded or unfolded left in doorwells of busy trains.

For the record I used to cycle hundreds of miles a week, I always obeyed the Highway Code, never tried to take my bike onto a crowded train unless there was a suitable place to safely store it, and made damn sure I paid attention to my surroundings to ensure nobody was inconvenienced by my bike. I have never used a folding bike, especially one that is such a fashion item, but that is irrelevant. I often travel with one or even two suitcases often weighing far in excess of a bike when travelling on holiday. And I still manage not to get in other people's way.

 

[bramling]

It seems very much to me that you do not consider how often people with bikes inconvenience other passengers.

Yes I know that sometimes bikes may inconvenience other passengers. Lots of things people do cause inconvenience to me, however life goes on. It's all part of living in a considerate society that we tolerate each other's inconveniences and annoyances, instead of selfishly trying to ban things other people do that we don't like.

 

[Bantamzen]

Yes I know that sometimes bikes may inconvenience other passengers. Lots of things people do cause inconvenience to me, however life goes on. It's all part of living in a considerate society that we tolerate each other's inconveniences and annoyances, instead of selfishly trying to ban things other people do that we don't like.

Nobody is trying to ban anything, this thread was started because of the inconvenience to a few folding bike owners having to carry their bikes a few metres more. Nobody is forcing folding bikes on people, so asking them to carry the things across a platform from the ticket gates is hardly a crime against humanity.

 

[jon0844]

Nobody is trying to ban anything, this thread was started because of the inconvenience to a few folding bike owners having to carry their bikes a few metres more. Nobody is forcing folding bikes on people, so asking them to carry the things across a platform from the ticket gates is hardly a crime against humanity.

A lot* of cyclists do seem to think they're some sort of special breed, as against ordinary pedestrians with a bike.

Of course it's not just bikes that push their way through crowds. Pram owners often do the same. Heck, I had an old lady push in with a trolley in the supermarket today. She did so at such an angle that I had to step backwards so she could get in. I didn't say anything because of a) shock b) shouting at an old woman is never going to end well in the ladder of social justice.

* Usual disclaimer; not all. But the ones who get all angry and defensive most likely fit the bill.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Even folded bikes, especially those non Brompton ones that fold in half, are a nuisance on full and standing trains. Personally I think many peak services are too busy to carry bikes on the sort of trains like the 350 used by London Midland. Obviously people who want to take a bike on a train will disagree, and we all have to give and take, but having been crushed against a bike in a vestibule; makes even a 20 minute journey quite unpleasant.

Personally if I knew my train was going to be short I used to leave my folding bike in the office as I knew the train would be even more crowded than usual. Part of the issue is that trains dont really have enough storage space whether its for folded bicycles or luggage.

Most TOCs have a rule that only compact folding cycles are allowed on commuter services, therefore the full sized ones that fold arent permitted but the rule is widely flouted.

I did recently take my full sized bicycle on a train when it was not permitted. However I had been aiming to catch the previous train 15:38 and it was cancelled. I therefore asked the guard of the 16:08 and was given consent to carry it as the train was not busy.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I see it many times each week, inconsiderate bike owners paying no heed to basic politeness and common sense

Yep. Likewise, I can define pretty much any outgroup and decide that people from that group should be censured. For example, "many times each week", I see RailUK Forums posters being narrowminded haulage-centric enthusiasts, and as a result I'd like to censure their access to the internet.

Think of your willingness to define people by one facet of their lives; think of Trump's election; and maybe reconsider how the world you would like to see should be ordered.

 

[Bantamzen]

Yep. Likewise, I can define pretty much any outgroup and decide that people from that group should be censured. For example, "many times each week", I see RailUK Forums posters being narrowminded haulage-centric enthusiasts, and as a result I'd like to censure their access to the internet.

Think of your willingness to define people by one facet of their lives; think of Trump's election; and maybe reconsider how the world you would like to see should be ordered.

Was there really need for that rant? I do see see cyclists on a regular basis pushing their bikes on, getting in people's way etc. I am sorry if this piece of factual information is inconvenient, but it is what it is. Even on trains with specific bike racks and areas like the 333s I travel on everyday I often watch as cyclists ignore these areas even when it is obvious that space is available. If you want to have a pop at someone, have a go at those people giving cyclists a bad name. Perhaps if they all showed a bit more common sense we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place?

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Sigh.

 

[EssexCommuter]

I have a Brompton that I take on a mainline train and then use instead of traveling by tube. I also take it to the platform unfolded, before folding it at the back of the platform, ready to board. When alighting, I take it off folded and again, find a quite spot to unfold it.

Carrying my folded bicycle would be more of a hindrance to other passengers than me taking it unfolded. The bicycle is wider when folded and carrying it instead of wheeling it means I walk much more slowly down/up the stairs and also along the platforms. Thankfully, I've never been asked to fold it before going through the barriers.

 

[Stewart2887]

Bikes on trains? I used to do it long distance, bike going Red Star, or in the guards van on the HST. I hate bikes on GWR trains now, folded or whatever. For the price of a Brompton, buy two bikes, one for each end of your journey.

 

[AM9]

I have a Brompton that I take on a mainline train and then use instead of traveling by tube. I also take it to the platform unfolded, before folding it at the back of the platform, ready to board. When alighting, I take it off folded and again, find a quite spot to unfold it.

Carrying my folded bicycle would be more of a hindrance to other passengers than me taking it unfolded. The bicycle is wider when folded and carrying it instead of wheeling it means I walk much more slowly down/up the stairs and also along the platforms. Thankfully, I've never been asked to fold it before going through the barriers.

How can a Brompton with handlebars at right angles to the direction of travel and both pedals out be narrower than when folded.
The justifications offered by those who don't think the rules should apply to them just get more and more proposterous.

 

[jon0844]

You can also get very lightweight Brompton bikes. They do cost more, but if carrying one is such a problem then surely it's worth the investment?

I'd go with the two bike idea personally.

(And my bike is a non-folding mountain bike. It has never been on a train ever because there would be nowhere convenient to store it for other rail users.)

 

[bramling]

You can also get very lightweight Brompton bikes. They do cost more, but if carrying one is such a problem then surely it's worth the investment?

Doesn't help when you're carrying a heavy load though, does it? A reminder that the panniers which fit to Bromptons can carry a lot.

As an aside, I'm not sure a lightweight Brompton is necessarily the way to go. In my experience the heavier versions ride better, mine certainly rides a lot better when the front is heavily loaded - even if does mean slightly more effort is required.
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How can a Brompton with handlebars at right angles to the direction of travel and both pedals out be narrower than when folded.
The justifications offered by those who don't think the rules should apply to them just get more and more proposterous.

The bike itself may not be narrower, but consider the situation where you have someone standing, carrying a pannier in their left hand and the folded bike in their right hand. I'd guarantee that's wider and more awkward than walking with the unfolded bike with the pannier on the front. Especially if both are heavy and the person is stopping every now and again according to when they get tired, as opposed to where is convenient/not in the way, which is inevitable.

And I'm not sure why you're talking about "the rules" not applying to people, as the rules are that bikes must be fully folded when *on the train*, plus escalators etc.

 

[stut]

The two bike idea is good, but then we really need investment in secure cycle storage at stations. A fenced off area, with decent CCTV, and an annual pass with a small fee to access the area. This is commonplace in countries with high cycling rates.

I couldn't do my commute with a folding bike or an old, less nickable bike, and the station I leave from has had quite a number of thefts. That's my primary reason for taking my bike on the train (and yes, I will be as considerate as I possibly can, storing out the way, waiting until the end before using the stairs - which is more than can be said for the passengers where I get off, who insist on charging on while you're clearly trying to get off, and leave their luggage strewn across the aisles).

 

[bramling]

which is more than can be said for the passengers where I get off, who insist on charging on while you're clearly trying to get off, and leave their luggage strewn across the aisles).

So passengers breaking rules? The views of other posters on this thread suggests they should all be banned before they enter the station.