Talgo AVRIL

[finlaywilson2]

Network,
Talgo AVRIL. What do we know? Where will it go? Operating speeds? Release date?

*Information appreciated!*

 

[nwales58]

Assuming you mean the S-106 for RENFE (they have sold a small batch to a french setup) in service date is easy: by the end of the year. Just as it was by the end of last year and the year before.

330 km/h max service speed (design allows higher), several configurations, standard/guage changing, some equipped for France, and a high density for Avlo services. 2+3 seating for Avlo, don't know whether the RENFE ones are too.

It's very late. But SNCF and FS have helped Spain out with plenty of other rolling stock.

 

[finlaywilson2]

Assuming you mean the S-106 for RENFE (they have sold a small batch to a french setup) in service date is easy: by the end of the year. Just as it was by the end of last year and the year before.

330 km/h max service speed (design allows higher), several configurations, standard/guage changing, some equipped for France, and a high density for Avlo services. 2+3 seating for Avlo, don't know whether the RENFE ones are too.

It's very late. But SNCF and FS have helped Spain out with plenty of other rolling stock.

Where would they operate in France? Does anyone know?
Thankyou for the answers!

 

[Myb]

The trains are being ordered by "Le Train" whose future services will operate in the south-west of France. Here is their planned route map:

 

[nwales58]

Being reported that the S-106 are delayed again, new in service (or maybe merely delivery) guess of Q1 2024. In a meeting with AESF (the safety and approvals body) regional government representatives were told the S-106 is still not fully approved. Newspaper articles suggest it may be down to approval of variable gauge for 300+ km/h and some standard gauge sets will probably be handed over first.

Back in March Talgo promised that this time they really really would deliver some trains in November. Now it's December. It's becoming more and more like the Fyra debacle.

One significant bit of the Avrils is the promise of 300 km/h+ in a variable gauge set which will make a big difference now there are routes with a long stretch on LAV before a meander onto the classic network. Existing variable gauge sets are max 250 km/h on standard gauge and the S-130 are very underpowered compared with the standard gauge units. The difference is obvious on Madrid-Zamora-Ourense where the new trains could save 15-20 minutes or more on Alvia services into Galicia (at present there are only 2 AVEs which are 20 minutes faster but cannot run beyond Ourense).

Bizarely, today RENFE have announced 'Superprecio' EUR 11 tickets on non-competition routes where the current bottom tier is 20-30 (as well as the suicidal EUR 7 Avlo where they are up against Ouigo). So if that generates growth with no new capacity there will be more and more full trains pushing on the day bookers away from RENFE.

Without the S-106 and its 2+3 standard (2+2 Confort) seating RENFE and the customers are stuffed.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Any more news on the EIS of Avril?

 

[Bungle965]

There was a tweet which showed the interior of the new sets and they look pretty terrible in my opinion. 3+2 for standard class with some in train entertainment screens (something which the UK binned a long time ago)

I'm not entirely sure what they were thinking when designing it!

 

[nwales58]

What they were thinking was surely seat count? Around 500 instead of their usual 350 per 200m set. I'd assumed 3+2 was the Avlo sets but then pictures showed 2+2 XL (therefore Premium too) and 3+2 for non-Avlo too. Better seat mile costs but customers may prefer Iryo on routes with competition!

Ouigo get 550+ into a duplex - anyone know a precise number?

On dates, no announcement from RENFE recently so I assume the previous Q1 2024 or later, reported in various newspapers, e.g.

Los trenes Avril llegarán con tres años de retraso: operarán en 2024

Transportes confirma que Talgo entregará las primeras unidades de los convoyes en diciembre, tras lo que serán necesarias más pruebas

www.laopinioncoruna.es

Mid-October newspapers reported ERA homologation had happened.

Europa da luz verde a los trenes Avril para facilitar su llegada a Galicia

La homologación de las primeras unidades de la serie 106 llevaba bloqueada desde comienzos de añoEn los próximos días se verificarán los de ancho variable que llegarán hasta A Coruña o Vigo

www.laopinioncoruna.es

Timetables on RENFE.com imply worsening problems in the meantime.

The last plan I heard in news was a cascade starting with the new S-106 on Galicia and Asturias services, though that needs the variable gauge sets. Any S-730 released replace the remaining Talgo (branded Intercity) Badajoz, Algeciras, Almeria. See Viajando Contigo videos on youtube for the soap opera.

Badajoz LD services are still not bookable on renfe.com after 09/12 (!!!) so RENFE do not know how many S-730 are free in 4 week's time! So clearly no Avrils for Galicia by then.

Also in the cascade, some hauled Talgo coaches will be recycled into bargain basement S-107 Avrils with new power cars.

https://www.talgo.com/en/serie-107

 

[Austriantrain]

What they were thinking was surely seat count? Around 500 instead of their usual 350 per 200m set. I'd assumed 3+2 was the Avlo sets but then pictures showed 2+2 XL (therefore Premium too) and 3+2 for non-Avlo too. Better seat mile costs but customers may prefer Iryo on routes with competition!

Ouigo get 550+ into a duplex - anyone know a precise number?

On dates, no announcement from RENFE recently so I assume the previous Q1 2024 or later.

Mid-October newspapers reported ERA homologation had happened.

Timetables elsewhere imply worsening problems.

The last plan I heard in news was a cascade starting with the new S-106 on Galicia and Asturias services, though that needs the variable gauge sets. Any S-730 released replace the remaining Talgo (branded Intercity) Badajoz, Algeciras, Almeria.

Badajoz LD services are still not bookable after 09/12 (!!!) so RENFE do not know how many S-730 are free in 4 week's time! So clearly no Avrils for Galicia by then.

Also in the cascade, some hauled Talgo coaches will be recycled into bargain basement S-107 Avrils with new power cars. I assume that was financial engineering to lower the average price per set below the competition.

@Badajoz
Electrification of Plasencia - Badajoz put into use (it seemed ready when I was there in October, and partly live or treated as such) was also announced for sometimes in late autumn. Knowing RENFE/ADIF, it will be announced at short notice and no timetables be published until then….

Incidentally, the 15 gauge-changing TALGO Avril should be sufficient for two-hourly services from Madrid to Asturias and to Galicia (alternatively Vigo and La Coruña, although the usefulness of this is reduced by the unnecessary chord at Santiago de Compostela). Of course, nothing like this is to be expected; rather a hodgepodge of erratic services (although I do appreciate that the odd direct through service to the Mediterranean coast will be useful).

 

[AdamWW]

What they were thinking was surely seat count? Around 500 instead of their usual 350 per 200m set. I'd assumed 3+2 was the Avlo sets but then pictures showed 2+2 XL (therefore Premium too) and 3+2 for non-Avlo too. Better seat mile costs but customers may prefer Iryo on routes with competition!

I believe the bodies are wider than normal so the seat width is similar to other trains with 2+2 seating.

The view appears to be that passengers only care about seat width and there is no attraction in itself for solo passengers in having a single seat, or to second class passengers in not having two people between them and the aisle.

I am not sure that is universally true.

 

[Teebs]

I believe the bodies are wider than normal so the seat width is similar to other trains with 2+2 seating.

The view appears to be that passengers only care about seat width and there is no attraction in itself for solo passengers in having a single seat, or to second class passengers in not having two people between them and the aisle.

I am not sure that is universally true.

As a passenger I'd certainly look to avoid 3 across if given the choice even with the same seat size. For a long distance journey I'd be willing to pay a small premium for it.

 

[Austriantrain]

As a passenger I'd certainly look to avoid 3 across if given the choice even with the same seat size. For a long distance journey I'd be willing to pay a small premium for it.

Yes, it looks like a colossal own-goal in comparison to the competition.

 

[nwales58]

Even more puzzling, announcement of forthcoming faster services for Asturias and Galicia has called them AVE. See

Renfe pondrá a la venta el 2 de noviembre Asturias-Madrid

Con la apertura de la Variante de Pajares en esta primera fase todos los trenes actuales reducirán al menos 1 hora su tiempo de viaje.

www.renfe.com

In a second phase, as Talgo delivers the new AVE and Avlo series 106 trains and the training processes are completed, the incorporation of these new trains will mean an improvement in the offer both in number of connections, incorporating AVE services and Avlo, as in reducing times, in addition to incorporating Avilés as a new destination for Alvia trains.

At present AVE is for 300 km/h services with the Premium package offering. When the gauge-change services become 300 km/h on LAV, only possible with Avril sets, the best seating is 2+2 on Avril AVE but 2+1 on other AVE and even on lower brand Alvia services.

Most Avlo (cheap) services will be 2+2. But some AVE services will be 2+3 in standard at much higher fares.

So the AVE brand would be polluted at a time when it needs to be clear it is the expensive but most comfortable. I can only assume the marketing types are busy creating yet another brand.

 

[yorkie]

I don't know what Talgo AVRIL is, but just a reminder that if anyone is posting regarding something you've heard/read from an external source, we do kindly ask that a link to, and quote from, a suitable source is provided please. If any such posts can be edited to include this, that would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks in advance!

 

[nwales58]

Sorry. Recent posts edited with source links.

What is the policy on non-English? I assume anyone can paste the link into a translator.

Acronyms, starting from the thread start question:

Avril is a type of set manufactured by Talgo. RENFE call it series 106 and 107.

AVE, Alvia, Avlo, Avant are RENFE high speed service brands of varying quality.
LD = Larga Distancia, RENFE's generic term for high speed and Intercity (mixed bag) services.
MD = Media Distancia (some of which run very long distances), another service group
LAV = HSL

 

[yorkie]

Sorry. Recent posts edited with source links.

What is the policy on non-English? I assume anyone can paste the link into a translator.

Yes we require the person who is posting the link to put a relevant portion of text into a translator and paste the English translation (using the quote button, to generate quote tags); I've edited your quote above to demonstrate this. If anyone has any queries or gets stuck, send us a direct message.

 

[Austriantrain]

Even more puzzling, announcement of forthcoming faster services for Asturias and Galicia has called them AVE. See

Renfe pondrá a la venta el 2 de noviembre Asturias-Madrid

Con la apertura de la Variante de Pajares en esta primera fase todos los trenes actuales reducirán al menos 1 hora su tiempo de viaje.

www.renfe.com

At present AVE is for 300 km/h services with the Premium package offering. When the gauge-change services become 300 km/h on LAV, only possible with Avril sets, the best seating is 2+2 on Avril AVE but 2+1 on other AVE and even on lower brand Alvia services.

Most Avlo (cheap) services will be 2+2. But some AVE services will be 2+3 in standard at much higher fares.

So the AVE brand would be polluted at a time when it needs to be clear it is the expensive but most comfortable. I can only assume the marketing types are busy creating yet another brand.

Does AVLO has a reduced seat pitch compared to the very generous one on AVE services?

The new Talgo AVRIL would actually be perfect for integrating the rather useless Avlo into mainline offers - just have three classes, the budget one with 3+2 seating and increase frequency (like Trenitalia and Italo do in Italy). But that would make too much sense for RENFE…

From their point of view, the gauge changes on the lines go Galicia and Asturias at least reduce the danger of competition- Iryo has made some noises about buying Avril, but they will surely be much more cautious in investing into more expensive (compared to their ETR400) trainsets that they also cannot as easily transfer to their homemarket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It did occur to me that they could have the 3+2 as Economy (even sell it under the Avlo brand), the 2+2 as Standard and convert one coach to 2+1 as First.

Virgin were going to do that with the Voyagers, which is allegedly the reason for there being three accessible bogs.

 

[nwales58]

The new Talgo AVRIL would actually be perfect for integrating the rather useless Avlo into mainline offers - just have three classes, the budget one with 3+2 seating ...

I cannot remember the source now, I will update this if I can find it. I recall RENFE stating that Avlo would take over all of the all stops services on Madrid-Barcelona/Valencia with AVE for non-stop or Zaragoza services. At present there are limited stop Avlo which are faster than an adjacent AVE.

Your solution could be better as anyone prepared to spend money on Lleida-Madrid with plenty of space for work could still do so (or as I did earlier in the year because I wanted dinner on the way).

 

[cakefiend]

It did occur to me that they could have the 3+2 as Economy (even sell it under the Avlo brand), the 2+2 as Standard and convert one coach to 2+1 as First.

Virgin were going to do that with the Voyagers, which is allegedly the reason for there being three accessible bogs.

What would the layout have been? Because there's no way in hell you could fit 3+2 in a Voyager.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What would the layout have been? Because there's no way in hell you could fit 3+2 in a Voyager.

Indeed 3+2. Virgin Value Class. Dropped quite early on as impractical.

 

[nwales58]

I was obsessing over the 3+2 layout and have dug for more info. Seat pitch is better than I imagined but ...

There was a tweet which showed the interior of the new sets and they look pretty terrible in my opinion. 3+2 for standard class with some in train entertainment screens (something which the UK binned a long time ago)

This image?

from La Voz de Asturias but seems a widely used Talgo publicity photo. If so, that is not a typical coach. Most do not have the luggage stack and have 11 rows of seats.

I believe the bodies are wider than normal so the seat width is similar to other trains with 2+2 seating.

True. Body width is 3.2m compared with 2.94 for other Talgo sets for RENFE.

Does AVLO has a reduced seat pitch compared to the very generous one on AVE services?

It turns out not, it is actually greater than most current sets. This gets more interesting.

RENFE's web site states their standard seat pitch is 800mm and seat width 460mm.
An article (dating back to InnoTrans Berlin in 2012) has a Talgo graphic confirming that, giving the S-103 (their Siemens Velaro) standard seat pitch as 805mm and width 450mm.

Existing Talgo sets (S-102/112, 130) are either 10 rows of 800mm or 9 rows of ~890mm (Confort) in a 13.1m coach.

Avril sets, in the Talgo graphic, have 900mm seat pitch and 450mm width 2+3 in the wider body. Gangway is 500mm, the same as for previous 2+2 sets. So crawling past two people to get to your seat is compensated by having RENFE Confort legroom.

How they achieve the 521 to 581 seat capacity is by having 11 rows of 900mm instead of 10 rows of 800mm at present. Two metres more of a 13m coach dedicated to seats means no luggage stacks so loads of bags around legs, fewer smaller toilets and so on.

The 581 seat Avlo version, assuming it still has a cafe/bar coach, is nearly 11 x 54-seat coaches with only 1/4 coach in the whole train free for frills such as in the picture above. All other coaches are probably the full 54 seats.
The 521 seat AVE version is 3 x 40-seat Confort (2+2 seating) coaches and 8 x 54-seat standard.

I now think it needs a 2+ hour journey on the things to decide whether this is a genuis design or a miserable experience.

Incidentally, the 15 gauge-changing TALGO Avril should be sufficient for two-hourly services from Madrid to Asturias and to Galicia ... Of course, nothing like this is to be expected; rather a hodgepodge of erratic services

Indeed. See this newspaper article about the Vigo service:

Renfe confirma que los trenes Avril ofrecerán servicios AVE cuando lleguen en 2024 a Vigo

Usará los convoyes de Talgo para el producto prémium además del “low cost” Avlo | La estrategia repetirá la de Asturias

www.farodevigo.es

Currently the 4 direct Alvia services between Vigo and Madrid have 1100 seats available each way ...

... the 15 variable gauge sets, of which Galicia will have 7, between AVE and Avlo will allow 3 daily Vigo services in each direction ...

i.e. a worse timetable but more seats. We should be glad it will not be a like-for-like seat count reduction to 2 trains per day.

 

[nwales58]

Epiphany in Spain.

The original post asked about dates. Now we have official dates. Sort of.

In Britain we ignore the 6th of January apart from taking down the Christmas decorations. In Spain however in a cheesy stunt the Magi arrive in Vigo ... by train. Along with the transport minister (who is not one of the three wise men).

From 01/03/2024 tickets go on sale for the new timetable including the faster Avril services. Service start date is not announced yet. This is for both Galicia and Asturias. Booking for Galicia is currently to 18/03/2024 so the new timetable is some time after that.

El Gobierno anuncia que las ciudades del eje atlántico tendrán AVE en marzo

El ministro Óscar Puente,en visita preelectoral, da una quinta fecha de la llegada de los trenes Avril tras probar el nuevo Talgo en un viaje experimental de 3 horas 35 minutos entre Madrid y Vigo. La Xunta muestra su «escepticismo» ante el nuevo calendario

www.lavozdegalicia.es

Planned frequencies have changed since November's PR:

Vigo 5 (currently 4)​

A Coruna 5 (currently 3)​

Santiago de Compostela 8 (currently 4, so 3 Vigo services will reverse here instead of 1)​

not all of which will be Avril of course. Any Ferrol services, currently 2 per day, will still be S-730.

The politicians' hot air isn't worth summarising (Cercanías, links with Portugal etc) as nothing concrete will happen soon. The Xunta (Galicia regional government) spokesman:

... the minister said nothing new beyond the existing promise of 2024 Q1 ... we are sceptical about the March date ... the training of drivers has not yet started ...

 

[Austriantrain]

Santiago de Compostela 8 (currently 4, so 3 Vigo services will reverse here instead of 1)​

Another proof that the Santiago curve (like the Antequera curve, NB) is absolutely superflous - of course every Vigo service should reverse there, the time penalty is not big, but it greatly increases the number of connections to A Coruna. But well... RENFE.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is that 450mm width *plus armrests* as per say the 350/1? But even so that's quite tight to have a middle seat.

The 350/2 has 450mm wide seats, but that's hardly an acceptable InterCity configuration.

 

[Austriantrain]

Is that 450mm width *plus armrests* as per say the 350/1? But even so that's quite tight to have a middle seat.

The 350/2 has 450mm wide seats, but that's hardly an acceptable InterCity configuration.

Yeaah, it is an idiocy. Instead of taking advantage to offer a real first class (2+2 is not, single travellers will want to have the possibility of not having a neighbor), a decent standard class and a 3+2 budget "AVRIL AVLO" class, they will pursue their ludicrous dual-brand strategy - with, in particular, the consequence that those travelling on more expensive AVE tickets have less timetable choices (something that also happens in France when TGV Inoui are replaced by Ouigo - the most lucrative tickets, full price with the option of rebooking, get much less interesting because you cannot rebook on an OUIGO and so options are limited).

 

[nwales58]

I completely agree on that logic.

Press is describing the Avril services as AVE. If so, for normal people, in standard:

AVE is 2+2 seating. Or 2+3.

AVLO is 2+2 seating. Or 2+3.

depending on whether you are in an older or newer set. AVLO has no cafe/bar. But Superprecios give AVLO level fares on AVE. So what is the difference beyond purple or white trains?

When I was working the Inoui/Ouigo split was already in reality a pain in France on lower frequency services when I needed to change a booking. Some Alvias becoming AVLO and some AVE will be similarly annoying.

I am still struggling with the fact that 88 seats (22 rows) in a 26m 80x IET coach does not feel generous, but 11 rows in a 13m coach (to give 55 seats) will apparently feel wonderful.

Is that 450mm width *plus armrests* as per say the 350/1?

The source states "ancho butacas" which I would translate as width of seats. It is supposedly the same width as existing AVE/Alvia seats.

The table is in this image:

https://i0.wp.com/s01.s3c.es/imag/_v2/ecodiario/espana/580/Grafico-avril-2012.jpg

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am still struggling with the fact that 88 seats (22 rows) in a 26m 80x IET coach does not feel generous

Doesn't it? One of the things I find about 80x is that they are very spacious compared to older designs like Pendolinos and Voyagers.

It's the width that concerns me more. 45cm is too narrow for a middle seat on a premium InterCity train. That's commuter territory.

 

[stuu]

Doesn't it? One of the things I find about 80x is that they are very spacious compared to older designs like Pendolinos and Voyagers.

I agree. One of the (few) things that the 800s get right is the legroom

 

[Jamesrob637]

This train is an AVRIL fool, never mind anything else! Does it match the SWR 701 for length of delay?