Terminating HS2 at Euston via existing lines

[Halifaxlad]

If HS2 terminated at OOC is there any reason why it couldn't be connected up to the existing line to Euston so that HS2 could terminate at London Euston ?

 

[swt_passenger]

If HS2 terminated at OOC is there any reason why it couldn't be connected up to the existing line to Euston so that HS2 could terminate at London Euston ?

No there can't be a connection on the alignment being built now, the HS 2 tracks are in a deep underground station box pointing “towards” Paddington. (Which doesn’t mean it can be diverted into Paddington either.)

This has been pointed out many times before.

 

[Halifaxlad]

No there can't be a connection on the alignment being built now, the HS 2 tracks are in a deep underground station box pointing towards Paddington. This has been pointed out many times before.

So it's not possible to build a connection from the East down to this box ?

 

[James Finch]

So it's not possible to build a connection from the East down to this box ?

It is possible, and is (sort of) being planned at Euston. Below is the current plan for Euston, with Hybrid Platforms 1+2 being accessible from HS2 and the WCML:



If you want any form of connection from OOC to Euston, the (currently planned) tunnels will need to be dug from OOC's station box (which is ~18m below ground) to Euston

 

[Halifaxlad]

It is possible, and is (sort of) being planned at Euston. Below is the current plan for Euston, with Hybrid Platforms 1+2 being accessible from HS2 and the WCML:

View attachment 143257

If you want any form of connection from OOC to Euston, the (currently planned) tunnels will need to be dug from OOC's station box (which is ~18m below ground) to Euston

Yes quite, but considering the fact that reports apart that the tunnels from OOC to Euston are be being dropped, surely we might as well consider connection OOC HS2 to the existing lines in the East ?

 

[swt_passenger]

So it's not possible to build a connection from the East down to this box ?

No. I think you need to look at a map of the area and see what’s in the way.

 

[adamedwards]

Any OOC to Euston connection will need a tunnel and extra long platforms, so build as planned. As far as I know neither Euston nor Paddington has any 400m platforms.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Any OOC to Euston connection will need a tunnel and extra long platforms, so build as planned. As far as I know neither Euston nor Paddington has any 400m platforms.

According to: https://www.simsig.co.uk/Wiki/Show?page=simulations:euston Euston P1 is 400m long and P15 is 460m - these are the two used by the Cally which is very nearly 400m long*. You couldn't of course run the whole HS2 service from two platforms, and to get to P1 you'd have to cross the whole throat.

* A full set of coaches is 352m, plus the loco, plus the buffer stop loco, is going to take you to about 390 or so.

 

[The Planner]

According to: https://www.simsig.co.uk/Wiki/Show?page=simulations:euston Euston P1 is 400m long and P15 is 460m - these are the two used by the Cally which is very nearly 400m long*. You couldn't of course run the whole HS2 service from two platforms, and to get to P1 you'd have to cross the whole throat.

* A full set of coaches is 352m, plus the loco, plus the buffer stop loco, is going to take you to about 390 or so.

398m for 1, 376m for 2, 402m for 15. Where 460m has come from I have no idea. P2 was going to get a short extension by moving the buffer stops so P15 could be taken out for HS2 works.

 

[Bletchleyite]

398m for 1, 376m for 2, 402m for 15. Where 460m has come from I have no idea. P2 was going to get a short extension by moving the buffer stops so P15 could be taken out for HS2 works.

Given that the frontmost passenger door won't be right at the end I suspect that means you could use 1 and 15 for a double HS2 set. It'd probably be fairly easy to extend 1 by 2m back towards the concourse if the signal placement necessitated it.

However it would be incredibly operationally awkward (1 would mean crossing the whole formation from HS2) and only allow maybe at most 4 trains an hour.

Of course it would be possible to use all other platforms for a 200m unit, and it would be possible to change the unit spec to 300m, or even to run Pendolinos on it at 155 or 80x at 140. I still myself wonder if a more Swiss/German style Neubaustrecke concept would have worked better, i.e. a simpler, cheaper 300km/h line that just fed into the existing Euston with a few extra platforms at the high numbered end. The "gold plated" HS2 would be wonderful, just as the "gold plated" Elizabeth Line is, but neither probably needed to be quite as extravagant.

 

[Trainbike46]

It is possible, and is (sort of) being planned at Euston. Below is the current plan for Euston, with Hybrid Platforms 1+2 being accessible from HS2 and the WCML:

View attachment 143257

If you want any form of connection from OOC to Euston, the (currently planned) tunnels will need to be dug from OOC's station box (which is ~18m below ground) to Euston

Is this from the 10-platform version of the Euston design?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is this from the 10-platform version of the Euston design?

That's a very old version of the Euston design. The latest versions don't involve changing P1-15 of the classic station at all, though it loses P16 and has already lost 17 and 18.

 

[adamedwards]

So we can run HS2 by using Platform 1 and then the rat hole tunnel which then could be linked to the tunnels to Old Oak Common? Given thats 2 trains per hour max, we can then save more money by only laying a single track on HS2 with a passing loop half way to Birmingham. I can see Mr Sunak agreeing to that immediately!

 

[Nottingham59]

If HS2 terminated at OOC is there any reason why it couldn't be connected up to the existing line to Euston so that HS2 could terminate at London Euston ?

It's a good question. The obvious place to bring HS2 up to the surface would be Queens Park, where there is space for the portal to the West of the station.

In peak hours when there is no freight, around 25 trains depart Euston on six tracks (fast, slow and DC). That's only 8tph on each pair, which is not an efficient use of capacity. So...

• Put all the DC traffic down the Bakerloo core. (Currnently 20tph in the peak, but plan to increase this to 24 and then 32tph when the Bakerloo SE extension gets built.)
• Put the WCML slow line traffic onto the freed-up DC lines between QP and Euston. All slow trains to call at QP and principal stations to Watford. Reduce calls at Hampstead and Kilburn High Road to 2tph, or better still close them. Would need a flyover West of QP to preserve cross-platform interchange with the Bakerloo.
• WCML fasts stay on the fast lines. All fasts to call at Watford Junction and Milton Keynes.
• HS2 trains to emerge just west of QP and merge onto the slows to Euston. Only 200m or 250m or 300m classic-compatible sets to proceed to Euston. 400m sets to reverse in platforms 3 and 4 at Old Oak Common.

I don't know how much capacity this layout would allow, but 32tph on an upgraded Bakerloo should be enough to handle all the demand south of Watford. So this layout should be enough for HS2 until the Eastern Arm gets built.

 

[The Planner]

It's a good question. The obvious place to bring HS2 up to the surface would be Queens Park, where there is space for the portal to the West of the station.

In peak hours when there is no freight, around 25 trains depart Euston on six tracks (fast, slow and DC). That's only 8tph on each pair, which is not an efficient use of capacity. So...

• Put all the DC traffic down the Bakerloo core. (Currnently 20tph in the peak, but plan to increase this to 24 and then 32tph when the Bakerloo SE extension gets built.)
• Put the WCML slow line traffic onto the freed-up DC lines between QP and Euston. All slow trains to call at QP and principal stations to Watford. Reduce calls at Hampstead and Kilburn High Road to 2tph, or better still close them. Would need a flyover West of QP to preserve cross-platform interchange with the Bakerloo.
• WCML fasts stay on the fast lines. All fasts to call at Watford Junction and Milton Keynes.
• HS2 trains to emerge just west of QP and merge onto the slows to Euston. Only 200m or 250m or 300m classic-compatible sets to proceed to Euston. 400m sets to reverse in platforms 3 and 4 at Old Oak Common.

I don't know how much capacity this layout would allow, but 32tph on an upgraded Bakerloo should be enough to handle all the demand south of Watford. So this layout should be enough for HS2 until the Eastern Arm gets built.

Its not 8 per pair though, that's a poor way of showing it, especially as its only 6 tracked to Park St tunnels. If you assume 1700 to 1800, its 4 on the DC, 14 on the fasts 6 on the slows. Closing Kilburn High Road and Hampstead displaces 900k passengers per year. Is the proposition to send the freight off peak via the City Lines and not via Camden if HS2 have commandeered the slows?

 

[507020]

So we can run HS2 by using Platform 1 and then the rat hole tunnel which then could be linked to the tunnels to Old Oak Common? Given thats 2 trains per hour max, we can then save more money by only laying a single track on HS2 with a passing loop half way to Birmingham. I can see Mr Sunak agreeing to that immediately!

And I’m sure Rishi will enjoy watching a head on collision between 2 trains on this single track HS2 at a combined speed of 800km/h from his private helicopter…

If they are incapable of allowing a terminus at Euston to be built, surely the solution is to just connect Old Oak Common directly to HS1 and send trains down the Channel Tunnel as a better way of getting rid of them.

 

[thaitransit]

Single track High Speed Rail! That sounds like a delay filled disaster in the making. If its not double track why even bother building it in the first place!

To be honest I have never really understood the need for HS2 as the existing routes to the areas its meant to service are quad track! With 200kph running. There is no way they have maxed out the capacity of a Quad track regional railway. That type of line could easily support 60 trains per hour per direction. Thats trains every 2 mins on each of the 4 tracks.

With the current Quad track lines you essentially have a dedicated "all stations track" and "express track" for both directions. Any freight can follow the all stations on the "Yellows" during peak times. Just make sure it keeps rolling to avoid any delays to all stations services.

Otherwise introduce a freight train curfew period to avoid the peak direction during the most congested times. Sydney Australia has peak period freight train curfews on weekdays.

As for HS2 access to Euston wouldn't it be easier to have its trains come off the high speed line on to the suburban lines further out in the suburbs and run at normal speeds for last 10km into London. Yes it does mean getting stuck behind the stopper on Yellow signals during peak times. But it wouldn't be more than an additional 10 minutes to the trip and saving billions in extremely costly tunnels in central london.

 

[James Finch]

Single track High Speed Rail! That sounds like a delay filled disaster in the making. If its not double track why even bother building it in the first place!

Tell that to those building Brightline West - it is single track for most of its length!

Whilst it is cheaper to build single track/passing loops, it massively hinders long term capacity, which surely we should be aiming for to get best value for money. This is while ignoring the fact that it saves very little, and the previously mentioned safety aspect!

 

[SynthD]

If they are incapable of allowing a terminus at Euston to be built, surely the solution is to just connect Old Oak Common directly to HS1 and send trains down the Channel Tunnel as a better way of getting rid of them.

And then passengers can connect to the Eurostar at Paris to finish off their Manchester to London journey.

Thats trains every 2 mins on each of the 4 tracks.

No it’s not, this isn’t the Victoria line.

 

[507020]

And then passengers can connect to the Eurostar at Paris to finish off their Manchester to London journey.

Perfect! Or in fact the service will run on the single track from Manchester Piccadilly to Marne-la-Vallée Chessy, with passengers required to use the RER to reach Paris for connections to St Pancras.

Note that this approach provides vastly superior connections to all European destinations on the high speed network, inducing a modal shift from air, than a dead end terminus at Euston with no Eurostars available either there or in the north of England.

More sensible connections to St Pancras could be provided if the HS2 service called at Stratford International, but it is better to have extended journey times to only one city, that being London, than all other rail destinations in Europe.

 

[HSTEd]

Unfortunately it will be extraordinarily difficult to get money for any major rail project for the next decade on the back of this disaster.

Given the complete collapse in political backing for the project, I don't think there is any chance of getting a non Euston terminus at this stage.

 

[zwk500]

And I’m sure Rishi will enjoy watching a head on collision between 2 trains on this single track HS2 at a combined speed of 800km/h from his private helicopter…

It'd still have signalling...

If they are incapable of allowing a terminus at Euston to be built, surely the solution is to just connect Old Oak Common directly to HS1 and send trains down the Channel Tunnel as a better way of getting rid of them.

'just' is doing some very heavy lifting considering there's nowhere for those tunnels to connect to HS1 even if you did abandon Euston entirely and requisition the tunnel portals at OOC.

 

[mr_jrt]

I'm still unclear why they don't continue and build the Euston tunnels as planned regardless of the delay to the station itself. They'd be useful regardless, and then you at least have the still crazy, but slightly less crazy option of at least tying the lines into the current station as a short term measure.

 

[The Planner]

I'm still unclear why they don't continue and build the Euston tunnels as planned regardless of the delay to the station itself. They'd be useful regardless, and then you at least have the still crazy, but slightly less crazy option of at least tying the lines into the current station as a short term measure.

That's a very abortive cost, as you need to somehow get the lines up to the same level and manage the ETCS interface with the signaling in Euston throat.

 

[mr_jrt]

Ah yes, I forgot all the platforms being same level involved having the whole station rebuilt at the HS2 level. Mea culpa. The height difference aside, I'd imagine you would just steal a few platforms off the WCML side rather than have to have a signalling interface. But the height difference is a biggie!

 

[aavm]

Could HS2 carry on to the Elizabeth Line at old oak common. Say 10 trains to reading, and 10 to Birmingham in per hour

 

[Trainbike46]

Could HS2 carry on to the Elizabeth Line at old oak common. Say 10 trains to reading, and 10 to Birmingham in per hour

No, because:
- The Elizabeth line and HS2 are located in a way that connecting them at old oak common isn't possible
- HS2 rolling stock won't work in the crossrail core, and Elizabeth line rolling stock would be completely unsuitable

In summary, it's about as possible as suggesting the pendolino from Glasgow should continue further south on the Northern line at Euston

 

[gingertom]

So we can run HS2 by using Platform 1 and then the rat hole tunnel which then could be linked to the tunnels to Old Oak Common? Given thats 2 trains per hour max, we can then save more money by only laying a single track on HS2 with a passing loop half way to Birmingham. I can see Mr Sunak agreeing to that immediately!

please don't give him ideas.

 

[HSTEd]

- HS2 rolling stock won't work in the crossrail core, and Elizabeth line rolling stock would be completely unsuitable

No particular reason you couldn't order stock that could do it though.
Essentially all-axles-motored trainsets are available in speeds up to 320km/h these days (see Japan)

Still a terrible idea though.

 

[alf]

It's a good question. The obvious place to bring HS2 up to the surface would be Queens Park, where there is space for the portal to the West of the station.

I was at a public meeting held by Lord Berkeley near Euston a few years ago & he also argued strongly for HS2 to join the WCML at Queens Park for the last lap to Euston.
He said it could be done within the railways boundary without taking any land.

I was very sceptical so took a trip to Queens Park a few days later.

Lord Berkeley was right. A well known builders merchant has a large yard just north of the station between the DC lines & the WCML. Presumably it was once Queens Park Goods yard & is now leased from Network Rail.

If it was taken back there should be room for HS2 to surface here including a flyunder without any land take at all...& with careful management not enormous disruption with freights diverted via Hampstead Heath & 6 available tracks from Willesden Junction to Euston.