TfGM Bee Network - fleet discussion

[WWH44L]

These routes are already electric. As Class 466 said they are pretty much electric unless one breaks down. I would assume they would try to electrify some other routes like the Vantage routes or the 163 for example, although I’m not sure what depot

Yes, Wrightbus Electroliner double decks. Current electric routes 36,37,471 to go 100% electric and additional corridor to be electrified (won’t name which; suspect TfGM will want to announce).

Referring again to the message above from a senior manager who knows. No assumptions needed.

 

[CJ1]

Referring again to the message above from a senior manager who knows. No assumptions needed.

Ahh okay, thanks

 

[GCH100]

What types of decker can they actually use on Vantage routes, as busway systems in the UK are generally only compatible with Volvo and Scania vehicles, the exception to this so far was a batch of Dennis Tridents with Plaxton President bodies which Lothian buses modified to use on the Short lived Edinburgh Guided Busway and the Mellor bodied saloons at Cambridge, I here that Its Scania and Volvo due to a chassis/body width issue? Is this correct?

If this is correct that would limit the choice for buses to be bought next year for the Vantage busway to Volvo BZL/MCV.

Thanks for the confirmation of the Metroline order with Wrightbus.

 

[aswilliamsuk]

What types of decker can they actually use on Vantage routes, as busway systems in the UK are generally only compatible with Volvo and Scania vehicles, the exception to this so far was a batch of Dennis Tridents with Plaxton President bodies which Lothian buses modified to use on the Short lived Edinburgh Guided Busway and the Mellor bodied saloons at Cambridge, I here that Its Scania and Volvo due to a chassis/body width issue? Is this correct?

If this is correct that would limit the choice for buses to be bought next year for the Vantage busway to Volvo BZL/MCV.

Thanks for the confirmation of the Metroline order with Wrightbus.

Wright StreetDeck Electroliners are now able to be guidewheel fitted - there's a batch of 22 so fitted entering service at the moment in Leeds.

 

[Man of Kent]

What types of decker can they actually use on Vantage routes, as busway systems in the UK are generally only compatible with Volvo and Scania vehicles, the exception to this so far was a batch of Dennis Tridents with Plaxton President bodies which Lothian buses modified to use on the Short lived Edinburgh Guided Busway and the Mellor bodied saloons at Cambridge, I here that Its Scania and Volvo due to a chassis/body width issue? Is this correct?

If this is correct that would limit the choice for buses to be bought next year for the Vantage busway to Volvo BZL/MCV.

Thanks for the confirmation of the Metroline order with Wrightbus.

Metrobus's Wrightbus Kite Hydroliners in Crawley are guide wheel fitted.

 

[CJ1]

What’s going on with Go-Aheads B9TL Gem2s that were brought up from London. Are they waiting for the Electroliners to replace them and then they will go elsewhere? Or are they waiting for some other diesel vehicles like the E400 MMCs, although I don’t think there is any orders for 400 MMCs at the moment. I highly doubt they will be staying for much longer.

 

[jeffery9098]

What’s going on with Go-Aheads B9TL Gem2s that were brought up from London. Are they waiting for the Electroliners to replace them and then they will go elsewhere? Or are they waiting for some other diesel vehicles like the E400 MMCs, although I don’t think there is any orders for 400 MMCs at the moment. I highly doubt they will be staying for much longer.

to be honest, no one really knows but we just have to wait and see if there's anything. from my view it seems like Go-Ahead won't really purchase vehicles like Enviro400MMC because realistically there's no point of bus company in bee network to buy an vehicle that can't convert into electric e.g. Streetdecks or what could happen is that Go-Ahead might dip into their london fleet again and start converting Enviro400 from 2013 into single door but theres no definite answer upon the B9TL :/

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Aug 2024 ==

I believe they have ordered those Streetdeck Ultroliners, although not confirmed by Metroline or Wrightbus. Please correct me if I’m wrong but I haven’t seen anything of yet.

I quess they will order some ADL E400 MMCs and more E200 MMCs. No doubt they will order some EVs, I’m guessing the Streetdeck/GB Kite Electroliners along with some other EVs. No clue as of yet.

I heard somewhere that they are going to bring up some E200s, E400Hs and B5LHs from Metroline London. Not sure when though. Although regarding the E200s I think it’s the YX12 and YX61 ex First E200s they are bringing up.

LOL, why would metroline buy Enviro400MMC if their goal is to invest into an zero emission future. It seems more convenient for them to buy 'more' streetdecks and convert them into electric like in 2030 which further extends their life to up to 25 years e.g. First has done and now one of their SN65 Streetdecks carries new registration plates from this year

 

[Leyland Bus]

First has done and now one of their SN65 Streetdecks carries new registration plates from this year

When did that become allowable again? It was outlawed in the 80s wasn't it?!

 

[Leedsbusman]

When did that become allowable again? It was outlawed in the 80s wasn't it?!

I don’t think it was correct - the repowered 65 reg Streetdecks seem to be on dateless plates not 24 ones.

 

[CJ1]

to be honest, no one really knows but we just have to wait and see if there's anything. from my view it seems like Go-Ahead won't really purchase vehicles like Enviro400MMC because realistically there's no point of bus company in bee network to buy an vehicle that can't convert into electric e.g. Streetdecks or what could happen is that Go-Ahead might dip into their london fleet again and start converting Enviro400 from 2013 into single door but theres no definite answer upon the B9TL :/

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Aug 2024 ==


LOL, why would metroline buy Enviro400MMC if their goal is to invest into a zero emission future. It seems more convenient for them to buy 'more' streetdecks and convert them into electric like in 2030 which further extends their life to up to 25 years e.g. First has done and now one of their SN65 Streetdecks carries new registration plates from this year

It will be interesting to see what happens with Go-Ahead regarding their fleet. I’m guessing bringing up lots of vehicles from London might be the answer. But as you said who knows.

Well why not buy them? They have bought lots of E200 MMCs, also Stagecoach have bought quite a lot of 400 MMCs recently. After all they claim there ‘low emission’. It will also help get them up to capacity as they have claimed quite a few depots with lots of routes.

 

[jeffery9098]

It will be interesting to see what happens with Go-Ahead regarding their fleet. I’m guessing bringing up lots of vehicles from London might be the answer. But as you said who knows.

Well why not buy them? They have bought lots of E200 MMCs, also Stagecoach have bought quite a lot of 400 MMCs recently. After all they claim there ‘low emission’. It will also help get them up to capacity as they have claimed quite a few depots with lots of routes.

Stagecoach bought Enviro400MMC because everyone knows that's the go to double decker for Stagecoach. When have you ever seen Stagecoach buy 200 brand new Streetdecks for the whole group apart from London? Using the Enviro400MMC seems useless in Manchester because, realistically, GM is not that challenging for a bus or needs powerful vehicles. If an E40H can do 237 to Glossop or if an BYD can do 350 to Oldham then anything can.

 

[GusB]

Let's keep the thread on-topic, please. This is a place for discussing Bee Network fleet matters, whether it's to do with existing vehicles in the fleet, vehicles moving in and out of the fleet, or vehicles on order. Why the operators didn't buy X or Y is irrelevant to this discussion.

When referring to external sources of information we ask that you provide a link to the source and that the relevant text is copied and pasted into your post (in quote tags). Any images posted should be accompanied by a descriptive caption to assist those with visual impairments. Also, you should only post photos if you have permission from the photographer to use their work; they should also be suitably credited in your post.

Thanks

 

[Leyland Bus]

I don’t think it was correct - the repowered 65 reg Streetdecks seem to be on dateless plates not 24 ones.

I was going to say! That makes alot more sense! Thanks

 

[CJ1]

Does anyone know what Diamond’s plans are for taking over the Trafford routes (28x circulars)? Are they planning to buy some new vehicles for them or using their existing 73 and 24 reg E200MMCs?

 

[GCH100]

Does anyone know what Diamond’s plans are for taking over the Trafford routes (28x circulars)? Are they planning to buy some new vehicles for them or using their existing 73 and 24 reg E200MMCs?

I would of thought Diamond will need to order new vehicles, or bring some in from elsewhere, shortly, as the 73 reg and 74 reg Enviro E200MMC's are already allocated to the routes they already have. On a different note I was told last week that Go North West Enviro E400, 3119 Y 7THG has now gone into reserve at Wigan, whether or not it will be used again, when schools go back remains to be seen.

 

[CJ1]

I would of thought Diamond will need to order new vehicles, or bring some in from elsewhere, shortly, as the 73 reg and 74 reg Enviro E200MMC's are already allocated to the routes they already have. On a different note I was told last week that Go North West Enviro E400, 3119 Y 7THG has now gone into reserve at Wigan, whether or not it will be used again, when schools go back remains to be seen.

I guessed that but they could bring up some vehicles from other Rotala subsidiaries. Eg Streetlite DFs from Preston. Also I thought that Diamond had 73 and 24 plates E200 MMCs, are they planning to re-register them with 74 plates?

Hopefully that E400 with resume service with Go-Ahead, I don’t know what services it will be doing.

 

[GCH100]

I guessed that but they could bring up some vehicles from other Rotala subsidiaries. Eg Streetlite DFs from Preston. Also I thought that Diamond had 73 and 24 plates E200 MMCs, are they planning to re-register them with 74 plates?

Hopefully that E400 with resume service with Go-Ahead, I don’t know what services it will be doing.

Of course thats a mistake it should be 24 regs, thanks for that.

 

[Leedsbusman]

While browsing Freedom of Information releases I noted something which may answer a question I recall once asked here about painting of temporary buses.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/repainting_temporary_bee_network/response/2671509/attach/3/24.25.0031.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1

Can you tell me if TFGM paid for interim Bee Network vehicles operated by First Bus to be
painted yellow?
I am not seeking information about the incoming new fleet for services in Rochdale and
Bury, but the older vehicles used since the small franchise went live.

Please find below TfGM’s response to your request which is being dealt with under the
Freedom of Information Act 2000.
I can confirm that TfGM holds information relating to your request.
TfGM did not pay for interim vehicles operated by First Bus to be painted yellow. The
temporary fleet has been in use due to manufacturing delays of the new vehicles and as
such, the manufacturers paid for the Bee Network branding.

 

[CJ1]

Of course thats a mistake it should be 24 regs, thanks for that.

I have actually seen a picture of Metrolines new E200 MMCs that have YX74 regs, ready for service in January.

Anyway, do you think that Diamond might buy some vehicles off Arriva for the little Trafford routes? I think it’s more likely for them to acquire some Streetlite DFs (for example) or some E200s or even buy some more new vehicles, although it’s a bit too late now maybe?

 

[gka472l]

I have actually seen a picture of Metrolines new E200 MMCs that have YX74 regs, ready for service in January.

Anyway, do you think that Diamond might buy some vehicles off Arriva for the little Trafford routes? I think it’s more likely for them to acquire some Streetlite DFs (for example) or some E200s or even buy some more new vehicles, although it’s a bit too late now maybe?

As far as I know, Arriva isn't leaving anything in Manchester, all vehicles will likely replace older examples in Merseyside and possibly North Wales.....

 

[W176 XMA]

As far as I know, Arriva isn't leaving anything in Manchester, all vehicles will likely replace older examples in Merseyside and possibly North Wales.....

I've heard talk of some headed to the North East to replace Temsa Avenues, but plans can always change between now and January.

 

[GusB]

Once again I will remind people to keep the thread on-topic. This thread is for discussing what is actually happening with the Bee Network fleet, whether it be vehicle movements between the various operating companies, or discussing confirmed vehicle orders.

If you wish to chat about what you think should happen, feel free to start a separate thread.

 

[Class 466]

Looks likely that a number of Enviro 400 Hybrids will transfer to Metroline from Stagecoach along with the 32 EVs at Sharston.

BZLs will initially enter service at Middleton now that Electrification there is underway in comparison to Stockport where nothing has been started yet.

 

[py_megapixel]

Are the BZLs coming with TfGM spec interiors, does anyone know?

A sizeable number of Enviro 400 Hybrids will transfer to Metroline from Stagecoach along with the 32 EVs at Sharston.

BZLs will initially enter service at Middleton now that Electrification there is underway in comparison to Stockport where nothing has been started yet.

If true, this makes sense. Metroline taking on E400Hs seems logical as I think they operate a lot of that type in London so there will be a supply they can bring up if necessary. Hopefully it means the end of Stagecoach's 08-59 reg pure diesel E400s - awful knackered things that have no place in a major city in 2024.

 

[CJ1]

BZLs will initially enter service at Middleton now that Electrification there is underway in comparison to Stockport where nothing has been started yet.

Are they due to arrive this year or in January? Will they then be moved to Stockport once electrifying has been completed?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2024 ==

Hopefully it means the end of Stagecoach's 08-59 reg pure diesel E400s - awful knackered things that have no place in a major city in 2024.

Yes definitely, will be glad to see the end of them. They are truly knackered! I’m guessing most of them will be moving to Scotland or Lincolnshire like some of the 06-57 regs.

 

[GCH100]

Looks likely that a number of Enviro 400 Hybrids will transfer to Metroline from Stagecoach along with the 32 EVs at Sharston.

BZLs will initially enter service at Middleton now that Electrification there is underway in comparison to Stockport where nothing has been started yet.

Who says the BZL's will enter service at Middleton? It might be easier and simpler just to put the order back, till the depot is ready at Stockport.

 

[Fox192]

Who says the BZL's will enter service at Middleton? It might be easier and simpler just to put the order back, till the depot is ready at Stockport.

Not really, means they have more buses to move places that might need them

 

[mbonwick]

Looks likely that a number of Enviro 400 Hybrids will transfer to Metroline from Stagecoach along with the 32 EVs at Sharston.

The E400Hs I can see transferring - argubly it would be shrewd business from Stagecoach to round up every hybrid in the group that hasn't had a battery replacement and leave it to Metroline!

The EVs I struggle to see transferring though - the Ultra Low Emission Bus Grant that part-funded them was directly between the DfT and Stagecoach (TfGM had a separate infrastructure submission). Unless there's location restrictions on the funding (which I couldn't find with a quick look), I struggle to see why Stagecoach would let such new electric vehicles go...they'd make a useful cascade for some OpCo.
Also, it makes no sense to paint at least one of them into the new trial livery if they'll be going Bee Yellow anyway.

I'm willing to be wrong, as I can't say I'm particularly well informed about Manchester any more. If someone in the know could post a summary of what changes we're expecting from September onwards for Stagecoach (e.g. I've heard the Volvo B9TLs/Scania Omnicities are moving to Tranche 3, but not how they will be backfilled...if that's even the case)

 

[Leedsbusman]

On a few occasions the ownership of electric buses has been queried. these two Bee Network papers look to confirm ownership is with the operators.

https://democracy.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk/documents/b15014/Bee%20Network%20Committee%20-%20Supplemental%20Agenda%2021st-Mar-2024%2010.00%20Bee%20Network%20Committee.pdf?T=9

It is proposed that funding for this phase of the depot electrification works will, in part, be provided through the £12.5m received from the Tranche 1 Bus Franchise Operator, to part fund the cost of the first 50 ZEBs which are now operational in the Tranche 1 area.

This is £250k per bus so suggests Go North West has paid for the diesel value of the vehicle with TFGM funding the difference- much like Zebra schemes.

https://democracy.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk/documents/b14944/Supplemental%20Agenda%2022nd-Feb-2024%2014.00%20Bee%20Network%20Committee.pdf?T=9

The Committee is requested to approve, in line with the current plar deployment of ZEBs, the drawdown of £20.8m of CRSTS ZEB fund procurement, by Tranche 1 and Tranche 2 franchise operators, of th Emission Buses.


The £20.8m will fund the incremental cost difference between a nev bus and a new Euro VI diesel vehicle. The 94 ZEBs will replace die. currently deployed in Tranches 1 & 2, in accordance with the mecha commitments set out in the Franchise contracts

This works out at £221k per bus towards each suggesting the operators are funding the rest.

 

[Mollman]

The E400Hs I can see transferring - argubly it would be shrewd business from Stagecoach to round up every hybrid in the group that hasn't had a battery replacement and leave it to Metroline!

The EVs I struggle to see transferring though - the Ultra Low Emission Bus Grant that part-funded them was directly between the DfT and Stagecoach (TfGM had a separate infrastructure submission). Unless there's location restrictions on the funding (which I couldn't find with a quick look), I struggle to see why Stagecoach would let such new electric vehicles go...they'd make a useful cascade for some OpCo.
Also, it makes no sense to paint at least one of them into the new trial livery if they'll be going Bee Yellow anyway.

I'm willing to be wrong, as I can't say I'm particularly well informed about Manchester any more. If someone in the know could post a summary of what changes we're expecting from September onwards for Stagecoach (e.g. I've heard the Volvo B9TLs/Scania Omnicities are moving to Tranche 3, but not how they will be backfilled...if that's even the case)

With ZEBRA2 at least there had to be a guarantee of operating in the same geographic place for five years. In theory a transfer to Metroline would be dealt with in the same way as if Stagecoach had sold it's Greater Manchester operator so the agreement with the DfT would transfer over.