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TfGM Bus franchising

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Xenophon PCDGS

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Why are you even on the Buses subforum if you don't care if people use buses?

Because I believe there are two sides to every discussion. It is only in organisations such as Momentum that only one particular view should be so expressed. At the age of 75, I believe that I have seen and used more public transport such as buses, trolley buses, trains and trams than many of those upon the website. In 1958, one could go from the Manchester overspill housing estate at Langley in the Middleton area to the city centre of Manchester for four old pence. I also used the train from Middleton to Manchester up to 1964 when that branch line was closed.

In those far off days of the late 1950's/early 1960's, I recall feeling most unwell on the lower deck of buses well past their prime on account of fumes entering the lower deck area. I also remember the Rochdale Road depot, now long since demolished, that trolley buses were housed in.

I now live just outside the boundaries of the TfGM empire.
 
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Bletchleyite

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What is wrong with that particular aspiration?

It's totally separate. You can remove the burden from the public purse simply by requiring the regulated bus operations to break even.

Indeed, it was worse for the public purse than that requirement would be, because Councils spent public money tendering services out that the private operators didn't want to because they'd rather have the profit.

There is an element of the fact that we are not, in the UK, very good at running quality public-owned public services, I suppose.

In those far off days of the late 1950's/early 1960's, I recall feeling most unwell on the lower deck of buses well past their prime on account of fumes entering the lower deck area

That, of course, has nothing whatsoever to do with who owns the bus. And indeed I experienced the same in the late 90s and early 2000s on privately owned buses in a poor state of repair. (Atlanteans seemed particularly bad for it).
 

edwin_m

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Conversely, at the time of deregulation, was it not the case that the falling numbers of people who wanted to use public transport expressed the fact that there is a difference between what the people at that time wanted and what the public transport supremos wanted.

There is often use of words suffixed with "bahn" in postings on certain transport threads and Captain Mainwaring would have fits of apoplexy if he were to see these.. :)
Let's leave Godwin's law aside, the implicit accusation of xenophilia doesn't help the discussion that you seek to encourage.

Bus use outside London has continued to fall since deregulation. So by the same argument, the people don't want a deregulated bus network either. We've tried a state-run but non-integrated network and a deregulated and even less integrated network so perhaps an integrated network should be tried too? It worked reasonably well in Tyne and Wear in 1980-86, apart from obvious sillies such as forcing people onto Metro for the last mile from Gateshead to Newcastle.
 

Bletchleyite

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obvious sillies such as forcing people onto Metro for the last mile from Gateshead to Newcastle.

What really doesn't help is people quoting an obviously silly example (as you say) as a reason not to do it rather than all the ones that worked really well, and in some cases still do.

Most German cities with well-developed U- and S-Bahnen have a small number of bus routes penetrating the city centre, as there is no point in having people change in that sort of situation. Where it makes sense is the likes of outer suburbs where you make a very short bus journey on a high capacity standee bus to connect with a longer (distance wise) train or tram journey. Using Manchester examples, as it's a thread about Manchester, if you live in a suburb of Bury a bit far to walk to the station, the logical thing to have is a frequent (on the tram frequency) shuttle connecting those estates to the Metrolink station for frequent and much quicker trams to Manchester, and for all that to be on one zonal through fare. And if, say, you were going onwards to Salford Crescent for the uni, a quick change onto the train at Vic being on the same fare too.

If you look at a big city like Manchester, you have the inner "mass", where you probably want to just run buses into the city or across it, and then you have a distribution of "beads on a string" as you go outwards, where settlements have grown up separately, often around railway stations, but often too big to walk to the station. It's those places where integration works best.
 
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GusB

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Could we please try to be civil? We can all have different viewpoints, while respecting that others may not agree. Thanks :)
 

edwin_m

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What really doesn't help is people quoting an obviously silly example (as you say) as a reason not to do it rather than all the ones that worked really well, and in some cases still do.

Most German cities with well-developed U- and S-Bahnen have a small number of bus routes penetrating the city centre, as there is no point in having people change in that sort of situation. Where it makes sense is the likes of outer suburbs where you make a very short bus journey on a high capacity standee bus to connect with a longer (distance wise) train or tram journey. Using Manchester examples, as it's a thread about Manchester, if you live in a suburb of Bury a bit far to walk to the station, the logical thing to have is a frequent (on the tram frequency) shuttle connecting those estates to the Metrolink station for frequent and much quicker trams to Manchester, and for all that to be on one zonal through fare. And if, say, you were going onwards to Salford Crescent for the uni, a quick change onto the train at Vic being on the same fare too.

If you look at a big city like Manchester, you have the inner "mass", where you probably want to just run buses into the city or across it, and then you have a distribution of "beads on a string" as you go outwards, where settlements have grown up separately, often around railway stations, but often too big to walk to the station. It's those places where integration works best.
Absolutely. And you could do the same with a more rural area, for example each train at Greenfield could be met by three or four buses that serve the surrounding villages and get back in time to catch the next train.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I'm not certain about the relevance of certain comments, as the mods have pointed out.

It is fair to point out the excellent examples of public transport provision in places such Germany and Netherlands. I don't think anyone who posts on these threads is anything other than pro public transport. I dearly want to see public transport prosper and to see fewer cars clogging up our city centres and I think we all are of a similar ilk. Just that we differ in what we think is achievable and how it can be achieved, given the approach of the differing views of the authorities.

My view is that it's not as simple as Andy Burnham would have you believe. There's great play made about the decline of bus patronage such as an article like this https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/deregul...gulation-transport-travel-andy-burnham-279987

Much of the article, at least in the first half, focusses on the decline with this line "Other data suggest that Greater Manchester’s annual passenger journeys have declined by 32.1 million since 2010. It is a shocking statistic in a region where the population is to exceed three million by 2040, with an extra 600,000 daily journeys expected across all modes of transport." catching the eye. A decline of 32m is massive but then consider that Metrolink's annual ridership has increased by 26m in that time.... That's before we get onto the issue of car ownership becoming cheaper in real terms, the hollowing out of traditional town centres and the impact of internet shopping, etc

At least it does mention the real issue of road congestion. The 25 miles of bus lanes is cited but that's minimal in comparison with what is actually needed.

There's the obligatory reference to a London style network but that's only achievable with a substantial subsidy, way in excess of what is lavished on the provinces. Does the franchising proposal address this? No. Of course, there is the belief that there is a dividend from two sources:
  • A peace dividend - removal of overbussing from wasteful competition or enhanced frequencies to dissuade competition
  • Reduced margins from competitive tendering
Aside from the Oxford Road corridor (and even then, the level of overbussing is exaggerated), there is precious little competition to be had. Also, margins aren't as great as suggested when you look at what operators in London (and in regulated environments) would typically look to make. Benefits are likely to be swallowed up in managing the process.

My concern is that you end up with bus services that are sliced and diced not for what customers want but to act purely as a conduit to the trams/trains. That's not to say that they shouldn't be integrated with other public transport nor should that integration be improved or facilitated. However, as an example, do we suggest that the 255 from Partington should go no further than Stretford (integrated into Metrolink) rather than run to Manchester to remove that perceived duplication?

Certainly, things should be better. I just don't think that the proposals as they are will tackle the fundamental issues of road congestion and private car usage; issues that will not discriminate on the basis of the colour of the bus nor the operator.
 

Bletchleyite

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If there was a proper local service on the CLC, Partington would have a connection to Flixton or possibly Urmston, again timed for the train service. It is indeed pointless duplication to run that service into Manchester.

Pity there's no bridge over the Ship Canal to allow an Irlam-Partington figure 8 service.

With regard to bus lanes, well designed overtakes at junctions provide more benefit than just long bus lanes. It's a pity UK law doesn't allow tram lights to be used for buses as they can in Germany and the Netherlands, which means they don't need a traffic island for that.
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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If there was a proper local service on the CLC, Partington would have a connection to Flixton or possibly Urmston, again timed for the train service. It is indeed pointless duplication to run that service into Manchester.
If it was pointless duplication, it's rather surprising that it's supported such a service and for so long....perhaps because it provides a whole series of links that Metrolink doesn't provide.

As regards bus lanes/bus priority, the design is often lacking but that's not something that franchising seeks to resolve.
 

Bletchleyite

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If it was pointless duplication, it's rather surprising that it's supported such a service and for so long....perhaps because it provides a whole series of links that Metrolink doesn't provide.

Or because the fare system and timetabling (and culture of not changing due to those things) dissuades people from making that connection?

As regards bus lanes/bus priority, the design is often lacking but that's not something that franchising seeks to resolve.

True.

FWIW Urmston is a nice example - you can see an obvious route for a single vehicle Urmston-Flixton circular, timed to connect with the trains, same for Stretford itself, but no other bus routes at all needed on that side of things (subject to the CLC getting a decent, at least half-hourly, local service) because the rail network is very dense - nearly everything is within 500m of a station of some sort. Then when you get over towards Whalley Range there's then a lack of rail, so that corridor would justify buses all the way in (changing modes at Trafford Park would be a bit like the Gateshead example, i.e. to nobody's real benefit).
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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FWIW Urmston is a nice example - you can see an obvious route for a single vehicle Urmston-Flixton circular, timed to connect with the trains, same for Stretford itself, but no other bus routes at all needed on that side of things (subject to the CLC getting a decent, at least half-hourly, local service) because the rail network is very dense - nearly everything is within 500m of a station of some sort. Then when you get over towards Whalley Range there's then a lack of rail, so that corridor would justify buses all the way in (changing modes at Trafford Park would be a bit like the Gateshead example, i.e. to nobody's real benefit).
Noting that Urmston is mentioned here, would I be correct in thinking that the train service provision at that station is rather poor in comparison with other railway stations in the southern area of Greater Manchester?
 

Llandudno

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What really doesn't help is people quoting an obviously silly example (as you say) as a reason not to do it rather than all the ones that worked really well, and in some cases still do.

Most German cities with well-developed U- and S-Bahnen have a small number of bus routes penetrating the city centre, as there is no point in having people change in that sort of situation. Where it makes sense is the likes of outer suburbs where you make a very short bus journey on a high capacity standee bus to connect with a longer (distance wise) train or tram journey. Using Manchester examples, as it's a thread about Manchester, if you live in a suburb of Bury a bit far to walk to the station, the logical thing to have is a frequent (on the tram frequency) shuttle connecting those estates to the Metrolink station for frequent and much quicker trams to Manchester, and for all that to be on one zonal through fare. And if, say, you were going onwards to Salford Crescent for the uni, a quick change onto the train at Vic being on the same fare too.

If you look at a big city like Manchester, you have the inner "mass", where you probably want to just run buses into the city or across it, and then you have a distribution of "beads on a string" as you go outwards, where settlements have grown up separately, often around railway stations, but often too big to walk to the station. It's those places where integration works best.
Far too sensible an idea, it will never catch on!

The key is through ticketing, maybe even let rail passengers use the bus for ‘free’

Lots of long lost examples on Merseyside, bus rail interchanges at Waterloo, Kirkby, Maghull, Leasowe, Garston (now Liverpool South Parkway), Formby,

There is an oddity in Greater Manchester where a massive Park & Ride was built at Hazel Grove for use on the 192 bus, which takes over an hour to get to Manchester. I don’t think I have ever seen more than 20% of the parking spaces occupied. Meanwhile 500yards away Hazel Grove railway station car park always sees rammed full!
 

radamfi

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I dearly want to see public transport prosper and to see fewer cars clogging up our city centres and I think we all are of a similar ilk.
At least two people on this thread are at best concerned only about the cost of the taxpayer and at least one has little concern about whether people use the services or not.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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At least two people on this thread are at best concerned only about the cost of the taxpayer and at least one has little concern about whether people use the services or not.
No, that's not the case. It's just a statement of the context of what deregulation was meant to deliver, and an acknowledgement of the priorities of the government (of whichever persuasion).

Consider how much was cut from the public purse reflected in reduced funding for bus services, reduction of BSOG (so necessitating fare increases) and a reduction in funding for ENCTS... Meanwhile, fuel duty on private motorists was held at 2010 levels (so representing a reduction in real terms in taxation on private motorists). Tells you a lot.
 

Deerfold

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There is an oddity in Greater Manchester where a massive Park & Ride was built at Hazel Grove for use on the 192 bus, which takes over an hour to get to Manchester. I don’t think I have ever seen more than 20% of the parking spaces occupied. Meanwhile 500yards away Hazel Grove railway station car park always sees rammed full!

Is it designed as a Park & Ride for Manchester or Stockport?
The other plank of deregulation was to remove the financial burden from the public purse; let's not forget that before deregulation, passenger numbers were declining massively and the publicly owned organisations (NBC, SBG, PTEs, municipals) were losing a load of money and that was before you consider that they were getting new bus grants, fuel duty rebate etc. Let's not forget the context in which deregulation happened.
Was it? In West Yorkshire it had the opposite effect. The local authority no longer made a profit on peak-time services, but still had to pay for Sunday/evening/more rural routes.
 

radamfi

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No, that's not the case. It's just a statement of the context of what deregulation was meant to deliver, and an acknowledgement of the priorities of the government (of whichever persuasion).
Read this:

There should be an attempt to consult with all the public, given that the franchising proposals will lead to profligacy. Most of the conurbation does not have a high enough population density to support very frequent services where one doesn't need to consult a timetable, which is the only circumstance where bus use might actually be a choice rather than undertaken as there is no alternative. Therefore, it is much cheaper to continue with the current arrangements and only subsidise selected "essential" services Mon-Sat 0800-1800. Other local authorities, such as Cumbria, East Cheshire and Stoke, have a much more prudent approach to public transport provision.

Hardly a desire to get people on board.
 

radamfi

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That's one interpretation....or pragmatism?

It depends whether you are interested in getting people out of cars, and therefore cut congestion. The continuation of the current system won't achieve that and is clearly not the priority of that contributor.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Was it? In West Yorkshire it had the opposite effect. The local authority no longer made a profit on peak-time services, but still had to pay for Sunday/evening/more rural routes.
You can't carve out the odd area in a whole industry. Subsidies, overt and covert, were the target of the Tories. That is the context of deregulation.

It depends whether you are interested in getting people out of cars, and therefore cut congestion. The continuation of the current system won't achieve that and is clearly not the priority of that contributor.
I'm sorry - I don't know how else to communicate this.

Buses are being killed by congestion. The congestion comes from cars that are disproportionately cheaper. Nothing is being done by these proposals to change that.
 

radamfi

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Buses are being killed by congestion. The congestion comes from cars that are disproportionately cheaper. Nothing is being done by these proposals to change that.

London seems to have improved usage despite much worse congestion than Greater Manchester. Even in outer London far away from the congestion charge area and little or no bus lane construction.
 

edwin_m

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Buses are being killed by congestion. The congestion comes from cars that are disproportionately cheaper. Nothing is being done by these proposals to change that.
The German approach is to provide and subsidise a comprehensive integrated public transport network. There is no need to penalise driving as there is a good alternative for many journeys, and traffic congestion doesn't affect the network because the sections where it occurs generally have segregated light or heavy rail instead. I think to get people onto buses it's necessary either to do that or to make driving more difficult.

Under deregulation it's possible to tender and subsidise loss-making services but only if they don't compete with a commercial service, and the rules put enough obstacles in the way of integration that a fully comprehensive and comprehensible network is impossible in any practical sense. In many cases funding more buses would be the best way of getting people out of cars - likely to be a fraction of the cost of a rail reopening for example and basically what Ken Livingstone did at the time of the congestion charge. But outside London, the current system doesn't allow that to happen.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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London seems to have improved usage despite much worse congestion than Greater Manchester. Even in outer London far away from the congestion charge area and little or no bus lane construction.
Hmmm.....could it be the £1bn a year that is spent on it? Or that the congestion zone not only helped to fund transport improvements but also reduced traffic by 15% and congestion in the area by 30%. Or that bus patronage has fallen year on year since 2013/4, whilst congestion is increasing and exacerbating that problem https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...6/london-cannot-afford-a-bus-service-slowdown
 

RT4038

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At least two people on this thread are at best concerned only about the cost of the taxpayer and at least one has little concern about whether people use the services or not.

Whether you like it or not, the cost to the taxpayer is going to be a recurring theme. The UK Government has pretty consistently had a desire to reduce bus subsidies (or keep them stable at a time when there has been an increasing requirement), and there does not seem to be any indication that this is going to change anytime soon. We can ignore this fact on this forum and become an echo chamber of spending public funds to increase services, but what is the point of that? I know it is frustrating, but we are living in a culture where public transport, and especially local public transport, is not seen by individuals as a priority for public spending. People want cars. Just spending on public transport is unlikely to make much difference to congestion, without other steps (as mentioned by @TheGrandWazoo) which are politically difficult, and therefore probably not that good value for money. It is not about getting people out of cars at any price.

We could have regulation with fully integrated services, but this will come with a high price tag. It can't be done on the cheap. @Bletchleyite has given many illustrations of the system in Germany, The Netherlands and elsewhere. All these systems have higher levels of subsidy than ours, and are in countries where there is a broad consensus of agreement on the provision of such subsidies, the likes of which does not currently exist here. They have also been helped by the fact that their public transport systems have been developed as rail dominated (rather than buses competing with trains), and investment has been directed at the rail infrastructure for 50+ years. In short, if the UK wanted this system, we would not start from here. The Manchester suburban rail network would have to be considerably upgraded (frequency, train lengths, grade separation, interchanges) to come close to coping with a typical German system of bus feeders. 2 or 4 coach trains at comparatively wide intervals, already packed at peak times will not cut it! Even then there is a danger that these improvements would mainly result in existing users travelling more often, rather than achieving wholesale modal shift from cars.


In the 50s and 60s there were lots of public laundry facilities (both municipal and 'Laundromat'). As people got wealthier they purchased their own domestic washing and drying machines. Most of these public laundries have now closed down. Even if these laundries were free I doubt many more people would use them now, because the convenience of your own machine is far greater. Quite a parallel with buses and cars?

Of course I want to see a thriving, sustainable public transport system (thriving and sustainable meaning different things to different people). However I believe that merely changing the regulatory environment of bus services, without additional funding and restricting of private transport, is not going to achieve this goal.

Under deregulation it's possible to tender and subsidise loss-making services but only if they don't compete with a commercial service, and the rules put enough obstacles in the way of integration that a fully comprehensive and comprehensible network is impossible in any practical sense. In many cases funding more buses would be the best way of getting people out of cars - likely to be a fraction of the cost of a rail reopening for example and basically what Ken Livingstone did at the time of the congestion charge. But outside London, the current system doesn't allow that to happen.
The main reason, outside London, is not deregulation but a lack of funding. The obstacles referred to above can by and large be overcome by savvy Local Authorities, but they simply don't have the resources.
 

radamfi

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Hmmm.....could it be the £1bn a year that is spent on it? Or that the congestion zone not only helped to fund transport improvements but also reduced traffic by 15% and congestion in the area by 30%. Or that bus patronage has fallen year on year since 2013/4, whilst congestion is increasing and exacerbating that problem https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...6/london-cannot-afford-a-bus-service-slowdown

I guess you think London ought to be deregulated then?

Of course I want to see a thriving public transport system

You don't. Everything else you've said means you don't care.
 

AB93

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London seems to have improved usage despite much worse congestion than Greater Manchester. Even in outer London far away from the congestion charge area and little or no bus lane construction.
Like this?

Local bus passenger journeys in England fell by 29 million, or 0.7 per cent, in the year ending March 2019, according to the DfT.
The biggest drop was in London where passenger numbers fell by 1.2 per cent to 2.20 billion, continuing a downward trend since patronage in the capital peaked in 2013/14. Passenger numbers outside London dropped 0.1 per cent to 2.12 billion.
With a bigger drop than outside London?

1608504192848.png

Congestion kills buses, it's as simple as that. And unless we fix that, there's not much hope, regardless of the regulatory framework, as London sadly now proves.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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The German approach is to provide and subsidise a comprehensive integrated public transport network. There is no need to penalise driving as there is a good alternative for many journeys, and traffic congestion doesn't affect the network because the sections where it occurs generally have segregated light or heavy rail instead. I think to get people onto buses it's necessary either to do that or to make driving more difficult.

Under deregulation it's possible to tender and subsidise loss-making services but only if they don't compete with a commercial service, and the rules put enough obstacles in the way of integration that a fully comprehensive and comprehensible network is impossible in any practical sense. In many cases funding more buses would be the best way of getting people out of cars - likely to be a fraction of the cost of a rail reopening for example and basically what Ken Livingstone did at the time of the congestion charge. But outside London, the current system doesn't allow that to happen.
I applaud the approach in the Netherlands and Germany but it still doesn't get away from the fact that various governments have made car usage more attractive, in financial and practical terms.

Funding more buses is achievable - so is funding for capital improvements. Instead we've had rubbish like better bus areas whilst at the same time systematically removing funding from the entire industry. And in fact, it's impossible to subsidise socially necessary services if the local authorities are having their budgets cut.
 

AB93

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Which area has seen a bigger drop in patronage since 1986?
Those are the facts since 2013/14, the point where congestion in London really started to get out of control. That was the point I am making.
Yes, London did very well at growing patronage. Did I say otherwise? But allowing congestion to throw all the good work away, consistently for several years, is a disaster.

I do not wish to to further the discussion because you seem to be incapable or unwilling to engage in sensible discussion without continually diverting the point with one liners, as you have done with me above, or totally unjustifiably accusing people of "not caring."
 
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