TfGM Bus franchising

[Deerfold]

I doubt TfGM are going to go for the dreaded (in the UK) bendy buses for any route. Even if they wanted to, between the work needed to make the infrastructure suitable and the increased staffing costs it'd probably be hard to justify funding an already frequently served route over other political priorities.

I'm not sure what the problem with bendy buses in the UK is (except at bus stations not designed for them). What additional staffing would there be for them?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not sure what the problem with bendy buses in the UK is (except at bus stations not designed for them). What additional staffing would there be for them?

If you introduced open boarding you'd need a couple of roving inspectors, but you could always have them with "on at the front, off at the back" without that.

"But fare dodging" -> London seems to manage.

 

[Goldfish62]

"But fare dodging" -> London seems to manage.

Only because there's only two routes left with open boarding and both are going soon (507 and 521).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Only because there's only two routes left with open boarding and both are going soon (507 and 521).

I was referring more to multiple doors than open boarding. With open boarding you just employ enough inspectors to generate enough penalty fare income from fare dodgers as you'd get from them if they paid, but I'm not convinced open boarding is necessary for the idea of high capacity bendy buses to work on the route.

 

[GusB]

The Bendy Buses thread can be found here:

Bendy buses

Hi All, Don't know if anyone here has heard the sad news (to me), that the bendy buses in Cardiff are stopping on the 29th january. I just wondered why they were being replaced, is it down to old age? I also would like to know if there are any artic buses running in Bristol still? Tom

www.railforums.co.uk

Back on topic, please!

 

[johncrossley]

If franchising won't work in Manchester, and it doesn't work in London, where does it work? Why does it work there and not in Manchester or London?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If franchising won't work in Manchester, and it doesn't work in London, where does it work? Why does it work there and not in Manchester or London?

It does work in London and it will work in Manchester.

In the Western industrialised nations, only the UK has a deregulated free-for-all in cities. That says to me the UK is wrong, and it's finally realising after nearly 40 years.

 

[johncrossley]

It does work in London and it will work in Manchester.

In the Western industrialised nations, only the UK has a deregulated free-for-all in cities. That says to me the UK is wrong, and it's finally realising after nearly 40 years.

But many if not most posters on here seem to believe that different rules should apply to the UK. Many places outside the UK (shock horror!) even have state owned bus services! But I've never heard anyone from the UK advocate bus deregulation outside the UK. They don't refer to New York or Zurich as bastions of socialism, which Manchester and London apparently are.

Arguably, deregulation doesn't even exist in the UK now. It has been on life support for three years and resuscitation may be extended even beyond that. Maybe that was acceptable when furlough was in operation, but not otherwise. At some point you have to stop pretending that local buses can be profitable. They aren't profitable in any other western industrialised nation.

 

[Stan Drews]

It does work in London and it will work in Manchester.

In the Western industrialised nations, only the UK has a deregulated free-for-all in cities. That says to me the UK is wrong, and it's finally realising after nearly 40 years.

It really depends on how ‘work’ is defined?
It will work in an administrative sense, that isn’t really being questioned. However, once you start to introduce additional definitions based on financial or operational considerations then it becomes harder. That is where the two sides of the issue will always find a way of claiming it works, or otherwise.
The real issue, which has been mentioned many times, is all about the level of funding that this country is willing to spend on public transportation (particularly buses), and that is largely why we do things so differently from other European countries.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The need for the Red Arrows is dying with daily commuting. It's only really there because the Tube couldn't cope. Between reduced commuting, the works at Bank and the huge growth of active travel, it's just not needed any more. When I've seen them anything like recently they have been very quiet. Thus I would agree with their withdrawal.

Daily commuting is reduced but has not disappeared. Red Arrows do much more than that, and service withdrawals extend much further than that.

Getting back to Manchester, the worry is we will see the trimming on some corridors and, to be fair, there are probably a few instances where some limited savings can be made but for real fundamental savings, there's going to be greater cuts.

I was referring more to multiple doors than open boarding. With open boarding you just employ enough inspectors to generate enough penalty fare income from fare dodgers as you'd get from them if they paid, but I'm not convinced open boarding is necessary for the idea of high capacity bendy buses to work on the route.

And yet, open boarding in London was rife with free loaders - evasion being 7.8% compared to 2.3% on routes without open boarding.

It does work in London and it will work in Manchester.

In the Western industrialised nations, only the UK has a deregulated free-for-all in cities. That says to me the UK is wrong, and it's finally realising after nearly 40 years.

As @Stan Drews points out, depends what the success is defined.

Strangely, we've heard the usual imprecise talk about how it will be better e.g. integrated tickets, lower fares, mom and apple pie, but yet we haven't seen anything measurable - patronage increasing by x%, reduction in traffic congestion by y%

 

[Bletchleyite]

The real issue, which has been mentioned many times, is all about the level of funding that this country is willing to spend on public transportation (particularly buses), and that is largely why we do things so differently from other European countries.

That's an issue. It's not however the issue. You can operate an integrated system on the same funding we have in the UK now, it just won't be as extensive as a heavily subsidised German system. Because it's integrated, though, it'll be able to serve more people because you won't be running buses alongside trains when that's not necessary; you concentrate the buses on serving places without rail and connecting them to rail.

 

[Stan Drews]

That's an issue. It's not however the issue. You can operate an integrated system on the same funding we have in the UK now, it just won't be as extensive as a heavily subsidised German system. Because it's integrated, though, it'll be able to serve more people because you won't be running buses alongside trains when that's not necessary; you concentrate the buses on serving places without rail and connecting them to rail.

I didn’t suggest it was the only issue. There are many.

Integration is possible whether the system is deregulated, regulated, nationalised or franchised. However, if you want it to work effectively then it requires the correct infrastructure, which would have to be funded as it’s sadly lacking in many of our towns and cities. There are many instances of multi-modal integration and ticketing in the UK, despite the deregulated bus industry. There are also examples of poor multi-modal integration and ticketing in the UK, despite the regulated rail industry. The lack of full bus/tram/train ticketing in Greater Manchester (System One) is down to the tram and train operators, not the deregulated bus operators. Therefore, the ownership and the regulatory regime aren’t necessarily the key components required to make integration and ticketing better.

There are many things that could be done to improve the UKs buses, even with the current regime. However, they would cost money, and that tends to politicise everything!

 

[tbtc]

Maybe we should have separate threads for the “actual” franchising process and the “in an ideal world, I’d do things differently” ideas?

Does anyone know when the next tranche(s) will be awarded?

Strangely, we've heard the usual imprecise talk about how it will be better e.g. integrated tickets, lower fares, mom and apple pie, but yet we haven't seen anything measurable - patronage increasing by x%, reduction in traffic congestion by y%

True, but then is genuine improvement the goal of this process or is it about political box ticking for the kind of people who put things like “public ownership” above quantifiable goals?

Same with heavy rail; there seems to be a constant majority in favour of “public ownership” of trains with precious little detail of what this would mean for actual passengers. And, as we’re seeing from the Northern debacle at the moment, it’s not as easy as people might have assumed!

I’d like this to work in Manchester, it’d encourage bus travel to be more high profile in other places (after decades of lack of investing in buses whilst trains have billions of subsidy, hence the situation in Greater Manchester where a train from Bolton to Piccadilly costs just over a quid but a couple of stops by bus costs twice that, since buses are expected to be commercial despite all of the cash spaffed on cheap train tickets)

However, it’s apparently going to take some time before services are changed, and then more time to assess how the streamlining/ enhancements change things (after which a lot of people will presumably decide it was a great/terrible idea based on their pre-existing opinion of Burnham!)

 

[WatcherZero]

First Tranche becomes operational 24th September 2023
Second Tranche was tendered last September, I believe the award will be March 2023 and operational from the end of March 2024.
Third Tranche will be tendered March 2023 awarded March 2024 to become operational 5th January 2025

 

[landgateblue]

For phase one Wigan depot will transfer to Go North West on 17 September 2023

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Integration is possible whether the system is deregulated, regulated, nationalised or franchised. However, if you want it to work effectively then it requires the correct infrastructure, which would have to be funded as it’s sadly lacking in many of our towns and cities. There are many instances of multi-modal integration and ticketing in the UK, despite the deregulated bus industry. There are also examples of poor multi-modal integration and ticketing in the UK, despite the regulated rail industry. The lack of full bus/tram/train ticketing in Greater Manchester (System One) is down to the tram and train operators, not the deregulated bus operators. Therefore, the ownership and the regulatory regime aren’t necessarily the key components required to make integration and ticketing better.

There are many things that could be done to improve the UKs buses, even with the current regime. However, they would cost money, and that tends to politicise everything!

True, but then is genuine improvement the goal of this process or is it about political box ticking for the kind of people who put things like “public ownership” above quantifiable goals?

Same with heavy rail; there seems to be a constant majority in favour of “public ownership” of trains with precious little detail of what this would mean for actual passengers. And, as we’re seeing from the Northern debacle at the moment, it’s not as easy as people might have assumed!

I’d like this to work in Manchester, it’d encourage bus travel to be more high profile in other places (after decades of lack of investing in buses whilst trains have billions of subsidy, hence the situation in Greater Manchester where a train from Bolton to Piccadilly costs just over a quid but a couple of stops by bus costs twice that, since buses are expected to be commercial despite all of the cash spaffed on cheap train tickets)

However, it’s apparently going to take some time before services are changed, and then more time to assess how the streamlining/ enhancements change things (after which a lot of people will presumably decide it was a great/terrible idea based on their pre-existing opinion of Burnham!)

I think we all just want to see improvements and a measurable improvement in public transport usage. All the talk of integration (which I concede is a good thing) really means nothing if it isn't in pursuit of a goal.... It's the usual "so what" question.

Given the amount of money spent on rail, you would love to see a fraction of that directed towards buses. The real challenge is bravery in giving bus priority measures and curbing just a few private car freedoms.

 

[GusB]

curbing just a few private car freedoms

Don't use such filthy language on the forum!!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Don't use such filthy language on the forum!!

Oo-er

 

[Leedsbusman]

For phase one Wigan depot will transfer to Go North West on 17 September 2023

24th for everything. 9 months after signing day reflecting the week delay v initial target of 16th Dec to finalise.

 

[landgateblue]

24th for everything. 9 months after signing day reflecting the week delay v initial target of 16th Dec to finalise.

not what the letter stagecoach gave to its drivers says!

 

[domcoop7]

Bus fares in Manchester suddenly got a lot more expensive in the early 90s.

I recall using a 12p concessionary fare well into the late 1980s (unless my memory is playing up!).

 

[Deerfold]

I recall using a 12p concessionary fare well into the late 1980s (unless my memory is playing up!).

That sounds about right. My Grandma used to travel out with her sister on a Saturday for the 10p Metro West Yorkshire concessionary fare. Sometimes they'd go to Oldham and have to pay both that and the 12p GM fare.

 

[GusB]

Ahem! Anyone who wishes to discuss memories of bus trips in the dim and distant past is welcome to start a separate thread. In the meantime, let's continue discussing Greater Manchester franchising in the 21st century.

 

[abbo1234]

not what the letter stagecoach gave to its drivers says!

Yes, according to the letter, Stagecoach are not selling the depot and there will be no loss of jobs with drivers still being employed by Stagecoach.

I wonder what they have up their sleeve.

 

[landgateblue]

Yes, according to the letter, Stagecoach are not selling the depot and there will be no loss of jobs with drivers still being employed by Stagecoach.

I wonder what they have up their sleeve.

I don't know what letter you have seen, but all jobs transferred to Go North West! The buses and depot are not being sold, so TfGM is looking at moving to Martland Mill.

 

[158756]

Franchising-related news in the agenda for next week's GM Transport Committee meeting

https://democracy.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk/documents/s24211/GMTC%20Bus%2020230120%20Forthcoming%20Changes%20to%20the%20Bus%20Network%20-%20Part%20A.pdf

In response to the announcement regarding the outcome of the bids for the franchised services in Tranche 1, in order to manage their transition from the commercial to the franchised network, in particular to manage the risk of drivers leaving the business during the transition period, Diamond are proposing the following changes"

Services 21, 163, 520, 561, 562 and 575 are proposed to be withdrawn.

Services 8,36,37,524 and 582 will each be reduced from every 12 to every 15 minutes.

Also in response to the franchising announcement, Vision Bus are to withdraw the 527.

TfGM's response is yet to be decided, but clearly they have to do something. If Diamond want to wind down their Bolton operation though how much would TfGM have to pay them to keep it, and who else wants to take on so much work for less than a year?

Does anyone know if Diamond staff are guaranteed work when Go North West take over? And who is paying for training new staff at the moment given they aren't going to do much productive work for Diamond?

 

[RELL6L]

That’s a pretty huge broadside into the whole franchising exercise with these substantial withdrawals proposed by Diamond. I took the 163 between Middleton and Heywood just last month and this was reasonably busy, deckers every 12 minutes and a fair chunk of route on its own, that route alone is a lot of buses taken out, the other routes perhaps not so dramatic but then also 20% taken out of 5 other trunk routes.

The Vision Bus 527 is an odd one - it is a commercial circular service while the 525 running the other way round is contracted.

I suspect when this hits the streets there is going to be quite a reaction! I wonder what TfGM will do. If they put them out to tender will Diamond bid? Where will anyone get the staff from? And is this an over-reaction to make a few bucks out of the last few months of the status quo? High risk strategy if it is.

 

[Leyland Bus]

Franchising-related news in the agenda for next week's GM Transport Committee meeting

https://democracy.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk/documents/s24211/GMTC%20Bus%2020230120%20Forthcoming%20Changes%20to%20the%20Bus%20Network%20-%20Part%20A.pdf

Services 21, 163, 520, 561, 562 and 575 are proposed to be withdrawn.

Services 8,36,37,524 and 582 will each be reduced from every 12 to every 15 minutes.

Also in response to the franchising announcement, Vision Bus are to withdraw the 527.

TfGM's response is yet to be decided, but clearly they have to do something. If Diamond want to wind down their Bolton operation though how much would TfGM have to pay them to keep it, and who else wants to take on so much work for less than a year?

Does anyone know if Diamond staff are guaranteed work when Go North West take over? And who is paying for training new staff at the moment given they aren't going to do much productive work for Diamond?

Everyone at Bolton working for Diamond has the exact same job when GoAhead take over. Same viz-a-viz Stagecoach... I'm told that the aim is to have every garage and every staff role working on the same pay and conditions as each other, so if you moved depots, nothing changes but your location.

Have also heard that when franchises come into effect, the outgoing operator is liable for "outstanding maintenance fees" for the first 3 months following the change. Presumably to stop anyone running the buses into the ground then simply walking away...

 

[peterblue]

Hearing the 163 is up for withdrawal is very surprising news.

 

[Blackpudding]

I can't see how Diamond withdrawing the 163 is any great surprise. I would expect Transport for Greater Manchester, Diamond and Go-Ahead to have facilitated this move.

Bolton is not the natural home for the 163. That is Manchester. The 163 doesn't even go close to Bolton. It was moved there after First closed Bury garage because, allegedly, Manchester Queens Road didn't have the space available with the other Bury to Manchester services moving to the depot. That may still be the case and if it is Go-Ahead, assuming they take the route, can rent parking space at Pilsworth, Heywood as they did when Queens Road were on strike. Pilsworth is only a stone throw from the route.

That way the route can be included with the other Bury - Manchester route when they come up for tender.