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TfGM Bus franchising

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WatcherZero

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Go-Ahead will be getting TUPE drivers just like Diamond will in addition to further recruiting. Diamond has just cynically decided to lay off its excess staff six months early rather than pay them until franchising starts, one suspects they have an eye to accrued redundancy entitlement. Hopefully however former Diamond staff will find fresh employment with Go-Ahead or other bus operators in the region. The really galling thing is as Diamond is laying off staff as in excess of future requirements they are still recruiting staff!


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Go-Ahead will be getting TUPE drivers just like Diamond will in addition to further recruiting. Diamond has just cynically decided to lay off its excess staff six months early rather than pay them until franchising starts, one suspects they have an eye to accrued redundancy entitlement. Hopefully however former Diamond staff will find fresh employment with Go-Ahead or other bus operators in the region. The really galling thing is as Diamond is laying off staff as in excess of future requirements they are still recruiting staff!

Having watched the previous committee meeting, Diamond were very clear that they are chronically short of staff and these cancellations are to enable them to run the rest of the network reliably (as indeed I discovered for myself, with half the evening service between Rochdale, Bury and Bolton not operating). There is no question of laying anyone off. Even Andy Burnham has accepted that it is a reasonable thing for Diamond to adjust the shape of the business in the light of what is happening.
The nearest parallel is perhaps when train franchises have changed hands, with the incumbent abandoning activities for which it will reap no reward. TfGM really ought to have foreseen the likelihood of the same in the bus market.
 

WatcherZero

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I believe Andy Burnham actually said he understands that the company has to match its resource to its future requirements.
 

domcoop7

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Having watched the previous committee meeting, Diamond were very clear that they are chronically short of staff and these cancellations are to enable them to run the rest of the network reliably (as indeed I discovered for myself, with half the evening service between Rochdale, Bury and Bolton not operating). There is no question of laying anyone off. Even Andy Burnham has accepted that it is a reasonable thing for Diamond to adjust the shape of the business in the light of what is happening.
The nearest parallel is perhaps when train franchises have changed hands, with the incumbent abandoning activities for which it will reap no reward. TfGM really ought to have foreseen the likelihood of the same in the bus market.
There must be a cut-off point for the "TUPE" provisions to apply (although I can't be bothered trying to look it up). For example, Diamond couldn't just appoint 50 people on £3million salaries as drivers a week before the go-live date and force Go North West to take them on and honour it. Therefore it has to apply to people in-situ on date 'x'. Presumably the risk for Diamond in continuing to recruit is that they'd end up with drivers employed after date 'x' and be left with staff with no work and potentially having to make redundancy payments, unfair dismissal payments, trouble with unions and a whole host of headache for no particular benefit other than making TfGM look good.

As I said up-thread, it seems when the legislation was passed, the extension of the notice required to give the Traffic Commissioners before withdrawing services should have been enough to stop this. Of course it was TfGM's choice to use the complex system of large and small contracts with depots and buses under its own control meaning that a longer period is necessary.
 

daodao

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Having experienced life living under totalitarianism I can assure you this statement is utter b*##***s (and I'm hoping is hyperbole on your part, otherwise offensive also to those who've genuinely suffered under such regimes).
TfGM's imposition of franchising and removal of the previous commercial freedom for private companies to operate public transport services as they wish, is a diktat that is akin to the actions of a totalitarian state. A Polish neighbour of mine, who lived/worked under Communism in Poland and who now works as a manager for Stagecoach in Manchester, is deeply wary of TfGM's arbitrary actions. While it is not a threat to his personal freedom, it is a potential threat to his livelihood.

Other cities such as Oxford have adopted enhanced partnership schemes with local bus operators to work co-operatively with them to improve local bus services. By contrast, TfGM's behaviour towards operators such as Stagecoach can only be described as hostile, and is in line with the Orwellian phrase "big brother knows best".

The future bus network is also likely to lack commercial responsiveness so won't have the incentives to adapt where demand changes. There are a large number of infrequent slow roundabout routes in Greater Manchester that are barely used and really should be chopped, particularly outside core hours (Mon-Fri 0700-1900, Sat 0800-1800). Bus service development should be concentrated on main densely populated corridors where frequency, directness and increased speed (with bus priority measures) could make services attractive to potential customers and increase bus usage.
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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There must be a cut-off point for the "TUPE" provisions to apply (although I can't be bothered trying to look it up). For example, Diamond couldn't just appoint 50 people on £3million salaries as drivers a week before the go-live date and force Go North West to take them on and honour it. Therefore it has to apply to people in-situ on date 'x'. Presumably the risk for Diamond in continuing to recruit is that they'd end up with drivers employed after date 'x' and be left with staff with no work and potentially having to make redundancy payments, unfair dismissal payments, trouble with unions and a whole host of headache for no particular benefit other than making TfGM look good.
Given that any staff with less than two years service can have their employment terminated, it's not really an issue
TfGM's imposition of franchising and removal of the previous commercial freedom for private companies to operate public transport services as they wish, is a diktat that is akin to the actions of a totalitarian state. A Polish neighbour of mine, who lived/worked under Communism in Poland and who now works as a manager for Stagecoach in Manchester, is deeply wary of TfGM's arbitrary actions. While it is not a threat to his personal freedom, it is a potential threat to his livelihood.

Other cities such as Oxford have adopted enhanced partnership schemes with local bus operators to work co-operatively with them to improve local bus services. By contrast, TfGM's behaviour towards operators such as Stagecoach can only be described as hostile, and is in line with the Orwellian phrase "big brother knows best".

The future bus network is also likely to lack commercial responsiveness so won't have the incentives to adapt where demand changes. There are a large number of infrequent slow roundabout routes in Greater Manchester that are barely used and really should be chopped, particularly outside core hours (Mon-Fri 0700-1900, Sat 0800-1800). Bus service development should be concentrated on main densely populated corridors where frequency, directness and increased speed (with bus priority measures) could make services attractive to potential customers and increase bus usage.
I think the view of the Orwellian state and Soviet Bloc direct control is a little strong!

However, the last paragraph is where my concerns lay. In Manchester, we are seeing the usual talk of bus barons, London style this and that, etc. The concern is that you will see a politicisation as we've seen in London. The lack of commercial awareness in the capital is likely to replicated, where the strongest services in Central London are being scaled back or axed entirely* whilst an increasing number of peripheral services in the suburbs place an evergrowing drain on the overall finances. As in London, I fear that you might see a slavish adherence to certain "rules" - no short workings that actually reflect the differences in passenger demand.

Unfortunately, Andy Burnham has sought to paint the issues of patronage decline solely of bus company making. Nothing about the impact of Metrolink (which I applaud but also recognise the abstraction from local bus services), nor the reluctance to do anything that might adversely impact voters, sorry, car drivers. I really do hope I'm wrong but we may see a more expensive (overall), overly bureaucratic network littered with sacred cows and overly political decisions. That is a concern.

* Before anyone suggests it, it's not because the tube network has suddenly improved or the impact of the Elizabeth Line. It is partly the introduction of cycle infrastructure (which conceptually, I actually support, but it has impacted bus travel times) but mainly to try to improve the finances.
 

Bletchleyite

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TfGM's imposition of franchising and removal of the previous commercial freedom for private companies to operate public transport services as they wish, is a diktat that is akin to the actions of a totalitarian state. A Polish neighbour of mine, who lived/worked under Communism in Poland and who now works as a manager for Stagecoach in Manchester, is deeply wary of TfGM's arbitrary actions. While it is not a threat to his personal freedom, it is a potential threat to his livelihood.

How's the deregulated urban bus service going in Poland?

Oh.

Other cities such as Oxford have adopted enhanced partnership schemes with local bus operators to work co-operatively with them to improve local bus services. By contrast, TfGM's behaviour towards operators such as Stagecoach can only be described as hostile, and is in line with the Orwellian phrase "big brother knows best".

TfGM's situation is different because its network is multi-modal, so to make things work properly you need to be able to control it all from one pot of money by one guiding mind so things line up and wasteful duplication is avoided. Partnerships will work better in small local authorities where public transport is almost exclusively by bus (there are trains in the Oxford area but they're mostly for going to London and Birmingham so there's little need for integration) and where the local authority won't be able to afford to employ experts.

I'd advocate franchising for Manchester (and Liverpool, and Birmingham for instance) but for smaller cities like Oxford I'd advocate partnerships, provided the local operator is up to scratch (Milton Keynes for instance would work with a partnership, but the incumbent operator is awful, so I'd advocate tendering the whole borough to a single operator with considerable commercial freedom and strong quality criteria, a bit like Jersey's Libertybus). Different things for different purposes.

The future bus network is also likely to lack commercial responsiveness so won't have the incentives to adapt where demand changes. There are a large number of infrequent slow roundabout routes in Greater Manchester that are barely used and really should be chopped, particularly outside core hours (Mon-Fri 0700-1900, Sat 0800-1800). Bus service development should be concentrated on main densely populated corridors where frequency, directness and increased speed (with bus priority measures) could make services attractive to potential customers and increase bus usage.

In your opinion. I am not sure e.g. TfL agrees, and I doubt TfGM does either, and nor do I.
 

GusB

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The first repaint into Bee Network livery has been unveiled:

Personally, I think they'd have struggled to find a duller shade of yellow.
At least it should allow them to avoid the usual cries of "eurgh, school bus yellow!"

I quite like the paler shade, but it needs an extra colour, I think.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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The first repaint into Bee Network livery has been unveiled:

Personally, I think they'd have struggled to find a duller shade of yellow.
The associated blurb has given a new name to the colour.... "Iconic Yellow"... :rolleyes:
 

Andyh82

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It needs something more than just 100% yellow

But I suppose “London style” buses have to have a “London style” 100% single colour livery
 

TheGrandWazoo

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ic31420

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Let's not forget it seems to fade in the sun too.

Bloody stickers all over the windows too
 

landgateblue

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Does anybody know when the small firms in Wigan (Finches, Vision etc.) find out what schools services they will get?
 
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F262YTJ

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It's that the finished livery? Or when the franchises are launched will it be enhanced with contrasting vinyls?
 

158756

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The bee was high in the public consciousness after the arena bomb, I always thought that must have influenced the choice of name.

The yellow works on the trams, but they aren't 100% yellow which I think is a mistake on the bus, and it will probably look worse after a few months on the road.
 

Simon75

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Nope. That's it.


And the worker bee is associated with the City of Manchester, not the whole of Greater Manchester...
At least GM Buses meant the whole of Greater Manchester

Yellow more associated with Mersey Travel
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Metrolink has used yellow since long before his tenure. I've always thought of it as Merseyrail envy :)
The recent news concerns yellow buses which are not often seen in Greater Manchester. This thread concerns itself with TfGM bus franchising.

Years ago, I remember the Flying Banana minibuses plying their trade up and down the promenade at Great Yarmouth, thinking "Thank God, at least they are not seen in the Manchester area".
 
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johncrossley

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The recent news concerns yellow buses which are not often seen in Greater Manchester.

However, presumably you can see that using a same or similar colour for trams and buses is pretty logical so yellow was almost certainly going to be the colour used for buses. It is very common for modes of transport within the same city to have the same livery. Certainly, more common than not. For example in Berlin you can see yellow buses, trams and underground trains (U-Bahn). Although TfL bizarrely decided to repaint its red trams green!
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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However, presumably you can see that using a same or similar colour for trams and buses is pretty logical so yellow was almost certainly going to be the colour used for buses. It is very common for modes of transport within the same city to have the same livery. Certainly, more common than not. For example in Berlin you can see yellow buses, trams and underground trains (U-Bahn). Although TfL bizarrely decided to repaint its red trams green!
It would have been just as easy as to having chosen a more suitable bus corporate colour then painted the Manchester Metrolink trams in that colour. Don't forget the original colour scheme carried by the Manchester Metrolink trams.
 

johncrossley

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It would have been just as easy as to having chosen a more suitable bus corporate colour then painted the Manchester Metrolink trams in that colour. Don't forget the original colour scheme carried by the Manchester Metrolink trams.

So repainting both the buses and trams is as easy as just repainting the buses?
 
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