TfGM Bus franchising

[geoffk]

Any chance of GM-wide route numbering coming back or has that been ruled out? It was in place when I worked for GMPTE 20 years ago but was gradually diluted, especially when Stagecoach renumbered its Wigan routes 1 upwards. London doesn't have any duplication of route numbers, does it?

 

[Citibus]

New timetables for the Bee Network are now available

Travel alerts

Our travel alert page lets you check for any disruption on the network, helping you to plan your journey whether you're travelling by bus, tram or train.

tfgm.com

Noticed a few errors

They've managed to show that the Leigh -St Helens 34 is being renumbered as 35 when its actually the 34 Bryn/Leigh -Manchester


575 and 576 timetable has the ultimate destinations the wrong way around

 

[pokemonsuper9]

They've managed to show that the Leigh -St Helens 34 is being renumbered as 35 when its actually the 34 Bryn/Leigh -Manchester

And the "New 35 timetable" link shows the 35 as being the Leigh - Manchester
I wonder if its as simple as someone selected the wrong 34 from Leigh.

 

[abbo1234]

There is one thing to be aware of if you plan to use the 362 outside the GM boundary. System One tickets are *not* valid and you need to get a special "Bee Bus" ticket. The Bee Bus ticket is only valid on Bee Network buses. It is also £5 a day. So this is bound to cause confusion. Why couldn't they just allow System One tickets on the whole 362 route?

People that live in Chorley, like me are now going to lose out. I get Arriva day and weekly tickets quite often to visit friends in St Helens and Liverpool. I now will have to buy two tickets so will probably just go in the car.

 

[GusB]

Some posts have been moved to a separate thread:

Greater Manchester Multi-operator ticket query

Does anyone know if there will be a cross network ticket introduced at launch day? I'm visiting Manchester in October and it would be handy to only have to buy one ticket.

www.railforums.co.uk

Please keep this thread for discussing issues specific to the franchising process. Thanks

 

[TheSmiths82]

And the "New 35 timetable" link shows the 35 as being the Leigh - Manchester
I wonder if its as simple as someone selected the wrong 34 from Leigh.

I think it must be a mistake? It would be odd if a bus that is apart of the Bee Network mostly operates in Merseyside, although I know there will always be some cross over.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

New timetables for the Bee Network are now available

Travel alerts

Our travel alert page lets you check for any disruption on the network, helping you to plan your journey whether you're travelling by bus, tram or train.

tfgm.com

Not all of these services are "Bee Network" just yet, noting the entry for the service 25 from Stockport....or are all of the three tranche areas now referred to by that name, even though the third and final tranche are some way off being named with approved service franchise operators.

I am willing to be corrected if I am wrong.

 

[Donny85]

I think it must be a mistake? It would be odd if a bus that is apart of the Bee Network mostly operates in Merseyside, although I know there will always be some cross over.

Yes, it’s an error. The 34 St. Helens - Leigh route is remaining with Arriva and will not be part of the Bee Network.

 

[Tim33160]

Not all of these services are "Bee Network" just yet, noting the entry for the service 25 from Stockport....or are all of the three tranche areas now referred to by that name, even though the third and final tranche are some way off being named with approved service franchise operators.

I am willing to be corrected if I am wrong.

The TfGM Service changes page lists ALL changes - not just the BEE Network. There are several changes dated 3 Sept for "normal" non - franchise services. There are also several routes joining in the BEE network not listed in the service change page - presume because there is no change to routes or times eg Wigan 1, 2, 5, 6. Bolton 21 and 22 are listed under X22

 

[Tim33160]

Bee network bustimes.org page is up.

Fleet list – Bee Network - Stagecoach Manchester – bustimes.org

The service change list for franchised routes in the Bee Network from 24 September is at https://tfgm.com/public-transport/bus/service-changes

Note:

• if the route doesn't change it isn't listed - eg Wigan 1, 2, 5, 6,
• 21 22 are listed under the X22 leaflet
• Most services are listed in each direction - a TfGM computer thing
• Standard TfGM leaflets - but entitled "Bee Network"
• No operator details as everything is managed by TfGM - lost property, complaints, information etc so no need to contact the operator who is working to TfGM contract
• No lists of Cross Border "Bus Service Permit" routes to date - no cross border bus service is allowed to operate in the franchise Area A without a Permit

They'll be the school bus franchises. The Vision Bus page lists school services and the individual route pages (e.g. the 955) says "A bus service operated by Bee Network and Vision Bus" at the top.

Stagecoach have a couple of Bee Network branded buses floating around - presumably painted for the school services?


I could well be wrong based on bustimes.org - most of them are currently being used on various general services.

Presume https://bustimes.org/operators/bee-network-bnvb/vehicles
bee-network-bnvb = Bolton Vision Bus

Note these services are operating before 24 September when franchising starts in the Area A

 

[RELL6L]

Interesting that mainly improvements are highlighted, yet the trunk 67 and 100 corridor out to Salford, Eccles and irlam is reduced, 8bph to 6bph on the main section. Is this to do with franchising or is it getting bad news out of the way first?

You’d think they would try and run it well with some resilience given the level of reduction, but they haven’t… trip reports coming up in due course….

And (just noticed) the reduction in the 17 trunk route to Rochdale from every 10 minutes to every 15 minutes between the peaks!

 

[johncrossley]

Interesting that mainly improvements are highlighted, yet the trunk 67 and 100 corridor out to Salford, Eccles and irlam is reduced, 8bph to 6bph on the main section. Is this to do with franchising or is it getting bad news out of the way first?

You’d think they would try and run it well with some resilience given the level of reduction, but they haven’t… trip reports coming up in due course….

And (just noticed) the reduction in the 17 trunk route to Rochdale from every 10 minutes to every 15 minutes between the peaks!

These are all services run by Go North West out of Queens Road depot and are not part of the Bee Network yet. These don't become part of the Bee Network until March, when they will be taken over by Stagecoach. Maybe Go North West don't have enough staff? Maybe some staff have transferred to Bolton or Wigan to drive Bee Network routes, causing a shortage at Queens Road, but presumably not that many as most people will transfer from Diamond and Stagecoach.

 

[RELL6L]

These are all services run by Go North West out of Queens Road depot and are not part of the Bee Network yet. These don't become part of the Bee Network until March, when they will be taken over by Stagecoach. Maybe Go North West don't have enough staff? Maybe some staff have transferred to Bolton or Wigan to drive Bee Network routes, causing a shortage at Queens Road, but presumably not that many as most people will transfer from Diamond and Stagecoach.

Indeed, but it seems very disingenuous to be reducing services quite substantially on some routes as Go Ahead on stage 2 routes in the same month as increasing frequencies on stage 1 routes. Is this someone saying 'look at the benefits'? Bizarrely Manchester to Middleton is reducing (between the peaks) from 12 buses an hour to 8 on the 17/18 but increasing from 4 buses per hour to 5 on the parallel 163. Will they be increased again when stage 2 comes in and Stagecoach take over?

 

[andrewbowden]

Indeed, but it seems very disingenuous to be reducing services quite substantially on some routes as Go Ahead on stage 2 routes in the same month as increasing frequencies on stage 1 routes. Is this someone saying 'look at the benefits'?

No one will be doing this as a fake ploy to oversell the benefits. The decision to increase frequencies on Bee Network Stage 1 routes is a decision made by Transport for Greater Manchester. Whereas the decision to cut frequencies from Queens Road services is still a commercial decision made by Go North West.

 

[johncrossley]

No one will be doing this as a fake ploy to oversell the benefits. The decision to increase frequencies on Bee Network Stage 1 routes is a decision made by Transport for Greater Manchester. Whereas the decision to cut frequencies from Queens Road services is still a commercial decision made by Go North West.

Nevertheless, if the frequencies are improved again in March it will look suspicious, even if it is no fault of TfGM.

 

[Deerfold]

Nevertheless, if the frequencies are improved again in March it will look suspicious, even if it is no fault of TfGM.

Will it? Or will it look like TfGM are doing what they've said they'll do?

Would you suggest they don't improve anything when the new contracts start?

 

[johncrossley]

Will it? Or will it look like TfGM are doing what they've said they'll do?

It was previously assumed that no immediate improvements would be made, but we have now seen that Wigan and Bolton will see quite a few frequency improvements. So for consistency you would expect some similar improvements in March and January 2025.

Would you suggest they don't improve anything when the new contracts start?

I don't suggest that. Of course, improvements are always welcome. But if there are improvements to those same routes that Go North West have reduced some people are bound to criticise.

 

[RELL6L]

It was previously assumed that no immediate improvements would be made, but we have now seen that Wigan and Bolton will see quite a few frequency improvements. So for consistency you would expect some similar improvements in March and January 2025.



I don't suggest that. Of course, improvements are always welcome. But if there are improvements to those same routes that Go North West have reduced some people are bound to criticise.

Perhaps Go North West are simply prioritising the future- franchise area 1 - over the past - commercial routes being handed over to someone else soon. If staff and vehicle resources are finite I don’t think I would want to under-perform on the new franchised work. Hence cuts to frequency on busy routes, maximising profit while you can.

 

[Leyland Bus]

Perhaps Go North West are simply prioritising the future- franchise area 1 - over the past - commercial routes being handed over to someone else soon. If staff and vehicle resources are finite I don’t think I would want to under-perform on the new franchised work. Hence cuts to frequency on busy routes, maximising profit while you can.

I think you've hit the nail on the head with that one!

2 and a half weeks to go!!!

 

[Leedsbusman]

It was previously assumed that no immediate improvements would be made, but we have now seen that Wigan and Bolton will see quite a few frequency improvements. So for consistency you would expect some similar improvements in March and January 2025.



I don't suggest that. Of course, improvements are always welcome. But if there are improvements to those same routes that Go North West have reduced some people are bound to criticise.

Aren’t the bulk of the improvements reverting to the service levels in place before staff shortages led to frequency reductions.

 

[Deerfold]

Aren’t the bulk of the improvements reverting to the service levels in place before staff shortages led to frequency reductions.

That was my understanding - they're reverting to the services at a fixed date (with a couple of later services).

 

[GCH100]

Why have the service changes not been listed with VOSA? So far not much of the new network has been registered there except for the 362 Wigan to Chorley Service? Is this because TfGM don't register as they are a state organisation? Or have TfGM overlooked it? Or have TfGM thought the operators would do it while the Operators have though TfGM would do it? Also who's responsibility would it be if the routes need registering? The Operator or TfGM?

 

[WatcherZero]

TfGM becomes a traffic commissioner so only cross border services like the 362 need to be registered (by the bus company) with the North West commissioner. Government probably hasnt added a field to display GM results on its website.

 

[Tim33160]

Cross Border routes operated from outside GM need a TfGM Bus Service Permit to operate in the GM franchise area. The routes then operate to TfGM vehicle standards (eg two wheelchair bays, next stop announcements etc) plus TfGM fares and day/week / monthly etc tickets accepted

https://www.route-one.net/news/greater-manchester-local-service-permit-plans-outlined/

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Cross Border routes operated from outside GM need a TfGM Bus Service Permit to operate in the GM franchise area. The routes then operate to TfGM vehicle standards (eg two wheelchair bays, next stop announcements etc) plus TfGM fares and day/week / monthly etc tickets accepted

https://www.route-one.net/news/greater-manchester-local-service-permit-plans-outlined/

Will this particular requirement cause any operators providing any Cross Border service to change the running patterns of such services and to cut journeys on those services back to outside the TfGM administered area?

 

[Tim33160]

Will this particular requirement cause any operators providing any Cross Border service to change the running patterns of such services and to cut journeys on those services back to outside the TfGM administered area?

To date: there has not been a published list of TfGM Bus Service Permits issued. As we are now two weeks away from Franchise day 24 Sept, these should/must have been applied for. There has been nothing to suggest any operator outside the GM franchise area is revising its services - or terminating at the border - which would appear to be counter productive?
I am unaware whether TfGM will be publishing "registration" changes / bus service permits etc - aka the weekly N&Ps from the Traffic Commissioner.
Will operators have to register / apply for licence to operate from depots - or are these to be owned by TfGM?

 

[Goldfish62]

To date: there has not been a published list of TfGM Bus Service Permits issued. As we are now two weeks away from Franchise day 24 Sept, these should/must have been applied for. There has been nothing to suggest any operator outside the GM franchise area is revising its services - or terminating at the border - which would appear to be counter productive?
I am unaware whether TfGM will be publishing "registration" changes / bus service permits etc - aka the weekly N&Ps from the Traffic Commissioner.
Will operators have to register / apply for licence to operate from depots - or are these to be owned by TfGM?

I'm told that most if not all the permits required for existing services that needed them were applied for and have been granted.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Cross Border routes operated from outside GM need a TfGM Bus Service Permit to operate in the GM franchise area. The routes then operate to TfGM vehicle standards (eg two wheelchair bays, next stop announcements etc) plus TfGM fares and day/week / monthly etc tickets accepted

https://www.route-one.net/news/greater-manchester-local-service-permit-plans-outlined/

I think this is going to be fun for South Pennine Community Transport who will now have to source replacement vehicles just for the GM services that they run (352 Holmfirth to Uppermill and 357 Holmfirth to Ashton Under Lyne) meaning that the Ford Transits that they use on a handful of services will be rendered useless.

 

[Goldfish62]

I think this is going to be fun for South Pennine Community Transport who will now have to source replacement vehicles just for the GM services that they run (352 Holmfirth to Uppermill and 357 Holmfirth to Ashton Under Lyne) meaning that the Ford Transits that they use on a handful of services will be rendered useless.

I wouldn't be too concerned. Most buses on the Bee Network won't be to these standards for a good while and in any case the next stop announcements requirements are now a national requirement, being phased in over the next few years.

Having said that the service permit requirements are a world away from the far more flexible London regime.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Bus services​

• 7 Wigan Bus Station - Bolton Interchange Bee Network
• 22 BOLTON Interchange - The Trafford Centre Diamond Bus North West
• 22 Bolton Interchange - The Trafford Centre Bus Station Bee Network
• 36 MANCHESTER Piccadilly - BOLTON Interchange Diamond Bus North West
• 36 Piccadilly Gardens - Bolton Interchange Bee Network
• 501 Johnson Fold - Farnworth King St Diamond Bus North West
• 501 Johnson Fold - Farnworth Vision Bus
• 501 Johnson Fold Terminus - Farnworth Bus Station Bee Network
• 559 Bolton - Makerfield Vision Bus
• 559 Bolton Interchange - Byrchall and St Edmund Arrowsmith High Schools Bee Network
• 571 BOLTON Interchange - BOLTON Interchange Diamond Bus North West
• 571 Bolton - Great Lever circular Vision Bus
• 571 Bolton Interchange - Bolton Interchange Bee Network
• 572 BOLTON Interchange - BOLTON Interchange Diamond Bus North West
• 572 Bolton - Great Lever circular Vision Bus
• 572 Bolton Interchange - Bolton Interchange Bee Network
• 573 Bolton Interchange - Bolton Interchange Bee Network
• 574 Bolton - Bolton Vision Bus
• 574 Bolton Interchange - Bolton Interchange Bee Network
• 582 BOLTON Interchange - LEIGH Bus Stn Diamond Bus North West
• 582 Bolton Interchange - Leigh Bus Station Bee Network

Looking at bustimes.org, the routes have shown up in their "Bee Network" form, for some routes that means there's 3 different sets of them now (E.g. the 501, which as seen in the image is shown as both Diamond, Vision, and Bee Network). At least it makes it easy to see the new timetables.