TfL break of journey/direct route

[mrmartin]

Had ticket Stratford Cardiff central super off peak return.

On the return wanted to meet a friend at Whitechapel so took Elizabeth line to Whitechapel, then exited the station. They weren't happy with that (didn't think BoJ was allowed) but let me through.

On the way back a couple of hours later (getting district then central) the barrier staff were not happy at all with that. Saying I should have done "the most direct route" (pad to Liv st then central /NR from there).

Is this right? Can you BoJ a return trip on a "Maltese cross" ticket and could you do PAD Whitechapel mile end Stratford as a "valid route"?

 

[Watershed]

Had ticket Stratford Cardiff central super off peak return.

On the return wanted to meet a friend at Whitechapel so took Elizabeth line to Whitechapel, then exited the station. They weren't happy with that (didn't think BoJ was allowed) but let me through.

On the way back a couple of hours later (getting district then central) the barrier staff were not happy at all with that. Saying I should have done "the most direct route" (pad to Liv st then central /NR from there).

Is this right? Can you BoJ a return trip on a "Maltese cross" ticket and could you do PAD Whitechapel mile end Stratford as a "valid route"?

Break of journey is in principle allowed on this ticket, as with most National Rail tickets. However, until the section of the Elizabeth Line between Whitechapel and Stratford opens, I don't think you can't break your journey at Whitechapel. This is because, up until that time, the only reason why you are valid to use the ticket on London Underground services is because it is a cross-London transfer. And the NRCoT say that you cannot break your journey whilst undertaking a cross-London transfer with London Underground:

16.4 Tickets valid for travel across London using Transport for London services do not entitle you to break your journey on London Underground

The route itself is fine - there is no requirement to take "the most direct route", and going via Whitechapel and Mile End hardly seems particularly circuitous anyway.

Once the final section of the EL opens you will be fine to break your journey at Whitechapel, as the Elizabeth line is not part of LU or DLR, and Liverpool Street to Stratford via Whitechapel will be a mapped route for any journey that includes the London Group-Stratford Group link (such as Stratford-Cardiff). So it will be no different to e.g. breaking your journey at Acton Main Line on the other side of London.

However it's sadly very common for LU barrier staff to have misunderstandings (to be extremely charitable!) about the validity of National Rail tickets, and so although they are correct now (but probably not for the right reasons), I wouldn't expect for the attitude to change once the EL opens in full

 

[mrmartin]

Interesting, thanks for the detailed explanation. Out of interest, what if you broke at Liv St, would that be ok ( EL to Liv St, NR from Liv St to Paddington?).

 

[miklcct]

So here's the question.

"Can a Maltese Cross ticket be used on the London Underground between two National Rail stations on the same side of London?"

If so, it should be valid to break the journey at Whitechapel. The reasoning is that the travel is on National Rail to Whitechapel, then London Underground to Stratford to complete the journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There have been a few recent threads on this, e.g.

Tube BoJ Rules

I'm planning to buy a ticket from Farnborough to Bethnal Green (return, any permitted route including one cross-London journey) and wanted to check the BoJ rules. As I understand it, you can break your journey on the tube but, in doing so, you'd be unable to get back onto the tube and can only...

www.railforums.co.uk

It seems the NRCoT disagrees with a few other pieces of publicity, so even the railway can't decide what it is doing.

Re breaking at Liverpool St where you'd change anyway, this is unenforceable even if the ticket does carry BoJ restrictions.

 

[Watershed]

Interesting, thanks for the detailed explanation. Out of interest, what if you broke at Liv St, would that be ok ( EL to Liv St, NR from Liv St to Paddington?).

Yes, as you would then no longer be breaking your cross-London transfer, seeing as Liverpool Street is one of the stations at which you are valid to start or finish a cross-London transfer.

It seems the NRCoT disagrees with a few other pieces of publicity, so even the railway can't decide what it is doing.

Seeing as the reaction of the gateline staff will almost certainly be the same once XR opens in full, it's yet another case of TfL making up their own rules as they go along.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

Once the final section of the EL opens you will be fine to break your journey at Whitechapel, as the Elizabeth line is not part of LU or DLR, and Liverpool Street to Stratford via Whitechapel will be a mapped route for any journey that includes the London Group-Stratford Group link (such as Stratford-Cardiff). So it will be no different to e.g. breaking your journey at Acton Main Line on the other side of London.

I appreciate that you think that should be allowed, but there will be no mapped routes from Liverpool Street to Whitechapel (as with the rest of the central core) and no distances to aid in validation - it is essentially not in the Routeing Guide's scope - according to RDG and TfL - because it lies within an area bounded by cross-London interchange stations. (Of course the same argument could apply to Thameslink...) By their rules, you will be able to go from Stratford to Liverpool Street on the Elizabeth line because of the existing NR-LU inter-availability arrangements, but you won't be able to get out at Whitechapel, just as you can't leave at Bethnal Green or Mile End if using the Central line.

 

[miklcct]

I appreciate that you think that should be allowed, but there will be no mapped routes from Liverpool Street to Whitechapel (as with the rest of the central core) and no distances to aid in validation - it is essentially not in the Routeing Guide's scope - according to RDG and TfL - because it lies within an area bounded by cross-London interchange stations. (Of course the same argument could apply to Thameslink...) By their rules, you will be able to go from Stratford to Liverpool Street on the Elizabeth line because of the existing NR-LU inter-availability arrangements, but you won't be able to get out at Whitechapel, just as you can't leave at Bethnal Green or Mile End if using the Central line.

The ticket gate is coded to allow break of journey at Whitechapel.

See the main Elizabeth line ticketing thread about the discussion. There are certainly conflicting information here.

I don't see how Whitechapel is in the area bounded by cross-London interchange stations. Whitechapel is undeniably outside the ring of London Terminals. The only stations inside the area are Bond Street, Tottenham Court Road and Farringdon. Also, I don't see how the NR-LU interavailability is relevant on the Elizabeth line between London Liverpool Street and Stratford. There is no Underground involved in the discussion.

As Whitechapel is not a Routeing Point and it's en-route between the Routeing Points of Stratford and London, it's automatically allowed if there is a mapped route between Stratford and London, i.e. all routes on the Great Eastern Main Line.

 

[Watershed]

I appreciate that you think that should be allowed, but there will be no mapped routes from Liverpool Street to Whitechapel (as with the rest of the central core)

This is not the case. Liverpool Street is a London Terminal as well as a member of the London Routeing Point Group. Whitechapel is not a Routeing Point. Stratford is a member of the Stratford Routeing Point Group.

The rules for tracing mapped routes state that you may travel via any route that doesn't involve passing through the same station more than once, or passing through a Routeing Point [Group] not shown on the map.

Therefore maps which include the link between London and Stratford Routeing Point Groups (i.e. essentially most tickets that are valid between London and Stratford) will allow travel via Whitechapel. It will be no different under the Routeing Guide rules to travelling out of Liverpool Street HL.

and no distances to aid in validation

This may mean that journey planners are unable to validate it under shortest route calculations, but doesn't affect anything else.

it is essentially not in the Routeing Guide's scope - according to RDG and TfL - because it lies within an area bounded by cross-London interchange stations. (Of course the same argument could apply to Thameslink...) By their rules, you will be able to go from Stratford to Liverpool Street on the Elizabeth line because of the existing NR-LU inter-availability arrangements, but you won't be able to get out at Whitechapel, just as you can't leave at Bethnal Green or Mile End if using the Central line.

That may be their policy - but they haven't enacted it in a way that prevents people from getting itineraries with breaks at Whitechapel. And it there is nothing in the Routeing Guide or NRCoT which specifies that rules for the EL are any different.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

I don't see how Whitechapel is in the area bounded by cross-London interchange stations. Whitechapel is undeniably outside the ring of London Terminals

Many of the interchange stations are outside that ring. I believe it's RDG's position that there is no difference between travelling through Stratford to somewhere on the Underground, and travelling through Stratford to Liverpool Street on the Elizabeth line. From their point of view, in both cases you are travelling into an area where only zonal or + fares apply and the station that marks that transition is Stratford.

This is not the case. Liverpool Street is a London Terminal as well as a member of the London Routeing Point Group. Whitechapel is not a Routeing Point. Stratford is a member of the Stratford Routeing Point Group.

*If* you consider the Elizabeth line to be like the Underground for fares purposes, and the industry does, then I don't think that matters. You are inside the "cross-London" area where only Underground-valid fares apply and being zonal they are by definition outside the Routeing Guide.

 

[Starmill]

*If* you consider the Elizabeth line to be like the Underground for fares purposes, and the industry does, then I don't think that matters.

That's not correct though. It may be your view that TfL Rail services are "like the London Underground for fares purposes" but it's certainly not the industry-standard position because, among other things, U Zone tickets aren't valid on all routes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2022 ==

You are inside the "cross-London" area

What's the cross-London area? It sounds like something which you've just invented in order to make your opinion sound more reasonable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2022 ==

only Underground-valid fares apply and being zonal they are by definition outside the Routeing Guide.

Again I'm afraid you're quite mistaken. These links are generally included and by definition must be usable, otherwise how would you use a ticket from Ealing Broadway to Beaconsfield on route Greenford?

 

[Watershed]

Many of the interchange stations are outside that ring. I believe it's RDG's position that there is no difference between travelling through Stratford to somewhere on the Underground, and travelling through Stratford to Liverpool Street on the Elizabeth line. From their point of view, in both cases you are travelling into an area where only zonal or + fares apply and the station that marks that transition is Stratford.

I'm not quite sure where you get this from. Whilst Stratford is an interchange station, there is no compulsion to have a ticket with Underground interavailability to be allowed to travel beyond Stratford. This is demonstrated by, for instance, the fact that you can use Greater Anglia only tickets beyond there to Liverpool Street.

Similarly with Finsbury Park, Queens Park and many other locations where there's a possible interchange location that trains pass through (r call at) before arriving at the London Terminal.

*If* you consider the Elizabeth line to be like the Underground for fares purposes, and the industry does, then I don't think that matters. You are inside the "cross-London" area where only Underground-valid fares apply and being zonal they are by definition outside the Routeing Guide.

Whilst this is undoubtedly the intended effect of the various fares changes etc. that have already taken effect (such as re-routing Abbey Wood to St Pancras season tickets to via City Thameslink), it remains the case that there is nothing in any customer facing document which puts any of these 'rules' on a legal footing.

 

[miklcct]

Whilst this is undoubtedly the intended effect of the various fares changes etc. that have already taken effect (such as re-routing Abbey Wood to St Pancras season tickets to via City Thameslink)

The fare database still lists the route of Abbey Wood to St Pancras as "Not Underground", rather than "via City Thameslink", therefore I can still use such a season ticket to travel on the most direct route.

 

[Watershed]

The fare database still lists the route of Abbey Wood to St Pancras as "Not Underground", rather than "via City Thameslink", therefore I can still use such a season ticket to travel on the most direct route.

Apologies, it was Abbey Wood to Farringdon I was thinking of.