Elizabeth line ticketing

[Haywain]

A previous bulletin, TRU 112, stated that BoJ with a ticket to Liverpool Street at Whitechapel is permitted (page 2).

That’s not a document available to National Rail staff and the item you mention makes no mention of the Elizabeth Line or of BoJ being permitted. And it is 4 years old - things change.

 

[miklcct]

That’s not a document available to National Rail staff and the item you mention makes no mention of the Elizabeth Line or of BoJ being permitted. And it is 4 years old - things change.

This document is available to TfL staff and it explicitly specifies that an Ipswich to London Terminals ticket can be used to break the journey at Whitechapel.

 

[MikeWh]

That’s not a document available to National Rail staff and the item you mention makes no mention of the Elizabeth Line or of BoJ being permitted. And it is 4 years old - things change.

It's not easily made available to National Rail staff, though it is publicly available. However, I'd love to hear how you believe "Elizabeth line" and "broken short of its final destination" are not mentioned when they clearly are. Finally, yes it's 4 years old, but my understanding is that nothing that was implimented has subsequently been removed.

 

[AdamWW]

Apologies if I've missed it in this thread, but does anyone know if there's a publicly accessible official document that one could point to in the event of a member of gateline staff on the Elizabeth Line taking the view that rover/Interrail tickets aren't valid on the "new" section?

All I can find is something on the Interrail web site which refers to it as Crossrail and could easily be interpreted as having been written before the full opening and therefore not relevant.

 

[CompactDstrxion]

Apologies if I've missed it in this thread, but does anyone know if there's a publicly accessible official document that one could point to in the event of a member of gateline staff on the Elizabeth Line taking the view that rover/Interrail tickets aren't valid on the "new" section?

All I can find is something on the Interrail web site which refers to it as Crossrail and could easily be interpreted as having been written before the full opening and therefore not relevant.

On the National Rail website for the All Line Rover as an example it clearly states Elizabeth Line as a participating TOC and there is no exclusion mentioned for the core section.

 

[AdamWW]

On the National Rail website for the All Line Rover as an example it clearly states Elizabeth Line as a participating TOC and there is no exclusion mentioned for the core section.

I did see this and was hoping for something a bit more explicit but I suppose there is only one way it can be reasonably interpreted.

(Though I can still imagine someone pointing to the NOT London Underground bit)

Thanks.

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

I did see this and was hoping for something a bit more explicit but I suppose there is only one way it can be reasonably interpreted.

(Though I can still imagine someone pointing to the NOT London Underground bit)

Thanks.

Crossrail/Elizabeth Line etc is not run by London Underground.

 

[AdamWW]

Crossrail/Elizabeth Line etc is not run by London Underground.

I know.

However my understanding from reading this thread is that for ticketing purposes the Paddington to Abbey Wood section is almost entirely treated as if it is, e.g. you can't buy a ticket from a National Rail station to Bond Street, you have to buy one to London Terminals with the same add-on you'd need to an underground station in zone 1.

So given that I've read of people being told by staff that All Line Rovers aren't even valid on the Overground even though that has regular National Rail ticketing, I'm wondering how clued up the Elizabeth Line gateline staff will be on a type of ticket they will probably rarely see.

 

[miklcct]

I know.

However my understanding from reading this thread is that for ticketing purposes the Paddington to Abbey Wood section is almost entirely treated as if it is, e.g. you can't buy a ticket from a National Rail station to Bond Street, you have to buy one to London Terminals with the same add-on you'd need to an underground station in zone 1.

So given that I've read of people being told by staff that All Line Rovers aren't even valid on the Overground even though that has regular National Rail ticketing, I'm wondering how clued up the Elizabeth Line gateline staff will be on a type of ticket they will probably rarely see.

The fact that Underground tickets are interavailable in the Crossrail core doesn't make the line itself London Underground.

Maybe we should try presenting a ticket from Reading to Farringdon, routed "London Not Underground" (which undercuts Reading to London any permitted fare) at Paddington and see what will happen.

 

[Watershed]

I know.

However my understanding from reading this thread is that for ticketing purposes the Paddington to Abbey Wood section is almost entirely treated as if it is, e.g. you can't buy a ticket from a National Rail station to Bond Street, you have to buy one to London Terminals with the same add-on you'd need to an underground station in zone 1.

So given that I've read of people being told by staff that All Line Rovers aren't even valid on the Overground even though that has regular National Rail ticketing, I'm wondering how clued up the Elizabeth Line gateline staff will be on a type of ticket they will probably rarely see.

TfL have done their best to make it as similar to LU as possible, in terms of branding and ticketing - including lying about the validity of "NR" tickets.

Despite their best efforts, there are still many NR tickets which are valid on EL services by virtue of the NRCoT, but which would not be valid on parallel LU service.

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

Maybe we should try presenting a ticket from Reading to Farringdon, routed "London Not Underground" (which undercuts Reading to London any permitted fare) at Paddington and see what will happen.

*SWR’s pricing manager stares intently*

 

[AdamWW]

The fact that Underground tickets are interavailable in the Crossrail core doesn't make the line itself London Underground.

As I understand it in general you have to use LU tickets becuase there are no point to point NR tickets defined to be interavalable with.

But in any case I know it's not the London Underground and therefore any rover style ticket valid on National Rail will be valid.

Perhaps all gateline staff are also fully aware of the complexities of the situation and fully understand which tickets are and aren't valid.

But I could imagine it being otherwise.

 

[miklcct]

*SWR’s pricing manager stares intently*

This ticket was well identified before the start of the central services and people expected that such "not underground" routing would be changed to a geographic routing to prevent loopholes (as a few Farringdon tickets were changed to "via City Thameslink", which prevented the use on Elizabeth line), but it didn't happen, and on the initial days I could price the journey out on the planner. However it seems that the planner has now blocked such routing to be used on the core.

As I understand it in general you have to use LU tickets becuase there are no point to point NR tickets defined to be interavalable with.

There are no point to point NR tickets to the core stations, except Farringdon and Liverpool Street. However, this doesn't preclude point-to-point ticket for other stations having validity on the core according to existing routing rules. For example, a "London Not Underground" ticket is perfectly valid for use on Elizabeth line according to the well-established rules.

But in any case I know it's not the London Underground and therefore any rover style ticket valid on National Rail will be valid.

Perhaps all gateline staff are also fully aware of the complexities of the situation and fully understand which tickets are and aren't valid.

But I could imagine it being otherwise.

 

[hkstudent]

*SWR’s pricing manager stares intently*

Seconded, not wanting to see those tickets changed to via Ascot which makes the route being more restrictive.

 

[Feuillesmortes]

I was checking out the possibilities on Rail Planner app and Paddington to Bethnal Green via Liverpool Street is permitted on an Interrail ticket.

However Paddington to Liverpool Street doesn't seem to be.

Any reason for this?

 

[transportphoto]

As I understand it in general you have to use LU tickets becuase there are no point to point NR tickets defined to be interavalable with.

But in any case I know it's not the London Underground and therefore any rover style ticket valid on National Rail will be valid.

Perhaps all gateline staff are also fully aware of the complexities of the situation and fully understand which tickets are and aren't valid.

But I could imagine it being otherwise.

You have a “Conversation” message from me.

I was checking out the possibilities on Rail Planner app and Paddington to Bethnal Green via Liverpool Street is permitted on an Interrail ticket.

However Paddington to Liverpool Street doesn't seem to be.

Any reason for this?

I can’t answer why, an InterRail ticket is valid throughout.

 

[redreni]

On Thursday I bought a ticket from the ticket office at Abbey Wood. I asked for an off-peak day return from Abbey Wood to Slough with a Network Railcard, dated 8 October.

The ticket I've been sold is marginally cheaper than I had expected at £10.60 compared to the £11.65 quoted on National Rail. It is marked as London Underground Zones 1-4 to Slough, which I see from this thread is expected (though it seems odd to me when I'm travelling between two National Rail stations and not using the tube at any point). It has an oddly-worded restriction, though:

"Via underground from Ealing Broadway"

Obviously this restriction can't mean I'm prohibited from using the Elizabeth Line east of Ealing Broadway or the ticket wouldn't be valid at Abbey Wood. I can't believe the Abbey Wood ticket office would have sold me a ticket that wasn't valid to begin my journey there.

Is this going to give me issues at the gatelines at Paddington, though? I will be passing through Ealing Broadway but I don't yet know if I'll be on an Elizabeth Line or a GWR train, nor do I know if the train will stop at Ealing Broadway.

It seems the Elizabeth Line, or different sections thereof, both are and aren't Underground lines, and both are and aren't National Rail lines, depending entirely on what's convenient for TfL in any particular situation in terms of revenue!

 

[MikeWh]

I can't see such a ticket on brfares.com, which is strange. The only zone U1234*LONDN to Slough ticket is routed Any Permitted.

 

[miklcct]

I would say you should go back to the ticket office and excess to the any permitted ticket. Your ticket is definitely not valid to use National Rail between Ealing Broadway and Paddington.

You can also use the Elizabeth line to Central London and transfer to the Central line in order to satisfy the routing restriction.

 

[pelli]

The ticket I've been sold is marginally cheaper than I had expected at £10.60 compared to the £11.65 quoted on National Rail. It is marked as London Underground Zones 1-4 to Slough, which I see from this thread is expected (though it seems odd to me when I'm travelling between two National Rail stations and not using the tube at any point). It has an oddly-worded restriction, though:

"Via underground from Ealing Broadway"

I can't see such a ticket on brfares.com, which is strange. The only zone U1234*LONDN to Slough ticket is routed Any Permitted.

Searching BRFares without a Network Railcard discount yields two Off-Peak Day Returns: Any Permitted for £20.10 (which would be £13.25 with 1/3 off) and Route "EALING CM/W ACTN" for £16.10 (which would be £10.60 with 1/3 off), but if you add a Network Railcard then only the Any Permitted is shown (whereas if you add a 16-25 Railcard then you do get both options).

I'll let the experts answer:
* Whether the restriction "EALING CM/W ACTN" is the same as the reported "Via underground from Ealing Broadway"
* What this restriction means
* Why BRFares thinks it's not available with a Network Railcard

 

[redreni]

Thanks.

My options seem to be
(1) Speak to the ticket clerk at Abbey Wood explaining that I want to travel via Paddington, ask if the ticket I've been sold is valid, and if necessary see if I can exchange it or pay an excess fare to get the routing changed.
(2) Take my chances with the barriers at Paddington (I doubt the barriers will accept the ticket and can imagine the staff at the gate line on the main concourse telling me I have to take the Underground to Ealing Broadway)
(3) Avoid the gatelines at Paddington by changing at Tottenham Court Road, via the Northern Line platforms, onto the Central Line to Ealing Broadway. This will make for a slower journey but nobody's going to check my ticket.

I'll probably choose option 3 for a quiet life. I just won't buy that ticket again.

 

[bcarmicle]

* Whether the restriction "EALING CM/W ACTN" is the same as the reported "Via underground from Ealing Broadway"
* What this restriction means

I suspect that the restriction requires travel via either Ealing Common or West Acton, and thus travelling on either the District or Central line. (The Piccadilly line does pass through Ealing Common but doesn't help you get towards Slough). Since you have to travel to Ealing Broadway anyway to transfer to National Rail, I suspect it's the same restriction represented in different ways (the EALING CM/W ACTN being one way to to force travel via LU).

 

[redreni]

I suspect that the restriction requires travel via either Ealing Common or West Acton, and thus travelling on either the District or Central line. (The Piccadilly line does pass through Ealing Common but doesn't help you get towards Slough). Since you have to travel to Ealing Broadway anyway to transfer to National Rail, I suspect it's the same restriction represented in different ways (the EALING CM/W ACTN being one way to to force travel via LU).

Neither Ealing Common nor West Acton is mentioned on the actual ticket, though.

The passenger is expected to know that, west of Paddington, the Elizabeth Line isn't an Underground line, even though east of Paddington it is treated for ticketing purposes as being an Underground line despite not being one. It's a real mess.

 

[Watershed]

Neither Ealing Common nor West Acton is mentioned on the actual ticket, though.

The passenger is expected to know that, west of Paddington, the Elizabeth Line isn't an Underground line, even though east of Paddington it is treated for ticketing purposes as being an Underground line despite not being one. It's a real mess.

It just goes to highlight the confusion and nonsense of TfL's policy.

 

[AM9]

It just goes to highlight the confusion and nonsense of TfL's policy.

Fortunately, it's a transient problem, from next month there will be less chance of issues with through trains being the default route offered unless the issuers are prepared to stand for ridicule.

 

[miklcct]

Thanks.

My options seem to be
(1) Speak to the ticket clerk at Abbey Wood explaining that I want to travel via Paddington, ask if the ticket I've been sold is valid, and if necessary see if I can exchange it or pay an excess fare to get the routing changed.
(2) Take my chances with the barriers at Paddington (I doubt the barriers will accept the ticket and can imagine the staff at the gate line on the main concourse telling me I have to take the Underground to Ealing Broadway)
(3) Avoid the gatelines at Paddington by changing at Tottenham Court Road, via the Northern Line platforms, onto the Central Line to Ealing Broadway. This will make for a slower journey but nobody's going to check my ticket.

I'll probably choose option 3 for a quiet life. I just won't buy that ticket again.

Option 3 is definitely valid on the ticket, however I prefer option 1 instead.

 

[alistairlees]

Searching BRFares without a Network Railcard discount yields two Off-Peak Day Returns: Any Permitted for £20.10 (which would be £13.25 with 1/3 off) and Route "EALING CM/W ACTN" for £16.10 (which would be £10.60 with 1/3 off), but if you add a Network Railcard then only the Any Permitted is shown (whereas if you add a 16-25 Railcard then you do get both options).

I'll let the experts answer:
* Whether the restriction "EALING CM/W ACTN" is the same as the reported "Via underground from Ealing Broadway"
* What this restriction means
* Why BRFares thinks it's not available with a Network Railcard

1. Yes
2. Not valid on National Rail east of Ealing Broadway (so not valid on either GWR or Elizabeth line from Ealing Broadway -Acton Main Line - London Paddington) (I haven't actually checked the raw data but I expect it has Paddington (PAD) set as an excluded station) (could someone check?)
3. Not sure!

This fare was intended for a journey from Slough to Ealing Broadway on National Rail (either GWR or Elizabeth line (formerly TfL Rail)); then a London Underground journey (of one or more legs) from Ealing Broadway to a destination of your choice in Zones 1 to 4 (without straying outside those zones).

Abbey Wood ticket office should not have sold you this ticket (at least, not without explaining the restrictions) for the journey you intend to make.

 

[Haywain]

This fare was intended for a journey from Slough to Ealing Broadway on National Rail (either GWR or Elizabeth line (formerly TfL Rail)); then a London Underground journey (of one or more legs) from Ealing Broadway to a destination of your choice in Zones 1 to 4 (without straying outside those zones).

Essentially, to somewhere in zones 1-4 without using the core section of the Elizabeth line.

 

[redreni]

Option 3 is definitely valid on the ticket, however I prefer option 1 instead.

I'm en route now.

I didn't want to do option 1 under time pressure and there's never any guarantee the ticket window will be open when you need it, so I set out a little bit early. Once I'd set out early there was little reason not to go the slow way and benefit from the cheaper fare.

I only began my journey at Abbey Wood today because of the train strike. Normally I'd start from Slade Green. For the future I've now worked out my best option is a Z1-6 travelcard in conjunction with a ticket from Boundary Zone 6 or West Drayton (doesn't matter which) to Slough (or Maidenhead, wherever I'm going). That has a number of advantages:

-no inconvenient routing restrictions,
-ability to break my journey anywhere in London, including LU stations, if I want,
-ability to take the bus to/from Slade Green at the start and end of the return journey,
-if there are major problems on Southeastern/Thameslink, ability to take the bus between my home and Abbey Wood instead.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Oct 2022 ==

Essentially, to somewhere in zones 1-4 without using the core section of the Elizabeth line.

Thanks for the responses.

It doesn't strike me as particularly reasonable for this restriction to exist at all. It is reasonable for passengers to think, as I did, that tube fares are either valid on the Elizabeth Line or they're not. None of the information made available to passengers says anything about the core section being different to the rest.

I don't believe, as a passenger, that I can be expected to comply with routing restrictions that aren't printed on the ticket, weren't drawn to my attention when I bought the ticket and aren't in the NRCoT.

To my mind there's an unexplained inconsistency between making a "London Underground Zones 1-4" ticket valid for travel to and from Abbey Wood, which is only reachable by NR and Crossrail, and at the same time saying that a routing restriction that only specifies "London Underground from Ealing Broadway" isn't valid on Crossrail to Ealing Broadway. There's no way for an average passenger to know that based on the information provided.

 

[miklcct]

I'm en route now.

I didn't want to do option 1 under time pressure and there's never any guarantee the ticket window will be open when you need it, so I set out a little bit early. Once I'd set out early there was little reason not to go the slow way and benefit from the cheaper fare.

I only began my journey at Abbey Wood today because of the train strike. Normally I'd start from Slade Green. For the future I've now worked out my best option is a Z1-6 travelcard in conjunction with a ticket from Boundary Zone 6 or West Drayton (doesn't matter which) to Slough (or Maidenhead, wherever I'm going). That has a number of advantages:

-no inconvenient routing restrictions,
-ability to break my journey anywhere in London, including LU stations, if I want,
-ability to take the bus to/from Slade Green at the start and end of the return journey,
-if there are major problems on Southeastern/Thameslink, ability to take the bus between my home and Abbey Wood instead.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Oct 2022 ==


Thanks for the responses.

It doesn't strike me as particularly reasonable for this restriction to exist at all. It is reasonable for passengers to think, as I did, that tube fares are either valid on the Elizabeth Line or they're not. None of the information made available to passengers says anything about the core section being different to the rest.

I don't believe, as a passenger, that I can be expected to comply with routing restrictions that aren't printed on the ticket, weren't drawn to my attention when I bought the ticket and aren't in the NRCoT.

To my mind there's an unexplained inconsistency between making a "London Underground Zones 1-4" ticket valid for travel to and from Abbey Wood, which is only reachable by NR and Crossrail, and at the same time saying that a routing restriction that only specifies "London Underground from Ealing Broadway" isn't valid on Crossrail to Ealing Broadway. There's no way for an average passenger to know that based on the information provided.

You need to distinguish between an "Underground zone" ticket and a "via Underground" routing restriction.

An Underground zone ticket may be used on all interavailable National Rail routes, such as Chiltern Railways, c2c to Upminster, North London Line, Thameslink core, Crossrail central section, etc. However, if the ticket is specified to be Underground / DLR only in the routing field it is clear that you can't use the above, similar to a National Rail ticket which has validity on Thameslink core may be used on the Northern / Jubilee lines, but not if it is marked not underground.

In this case, the U Zone 1-4 portion allows you to use Elizabeth line from Abbey Wood, but the routing restriction forces you to use the Underground to access Ealing Broadway, therefore you need to get onto to the Central line to abide by the rule.