Elizabeth line ticketing

miklcct

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The central section of Elizabeth line is opening soon and the ticketing still isn't completely clear to me. I have a lot of questions here:

  1. Will London Underground tickets containing the appropriate zones be interavailable on the newly-opened section?
  2. Similarly, will National Rail only tickets (not containing a Maltese Cross) containing validity between Paddington - Liverpool Street - Abbey Wood be interavailable on any Tube lines or the DLR, such as Central, Hammersmith & City and Circle lines, subject to the usual restriction that it can't be used at intermediate non-National Rail stations?
  3. In the fare database, there are only U-zone, Bus & Tram Pass and Travelcard destinations defined from new stations, while there are only U-zone origins defined to new stations. I have heard a rumour that no point-to-point National Rail tickets will be available for any of the new stations and tickets are to be sold as U-zone tickets (which implies a true answer to question 1), is that true?
  4. It seems that the Abbey Wood branch will make Liverpool Street become the London Terminal with the shortest distance from the South East, as a result, a London Terminals ticket from the South East, if not prohibited by the routing, will automatically gain validity into Liverpool Street once Elizabeth line opens. Am I right here?
  5. For journeys between the South East and Farringdon, will going via Elizabeth Line become the shortest compared to existing via City Thameslink routing, resulting in addition validity for a ticket to Farringdon with routes Any Permitted or Not via HS1?
  6. How will the new stations behave in the Routeing Guide? I still can't see anything about the new stations. Will there be new routeing points defined?
 
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Watershed

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This is an area where TfL's stated position (as set out in industry briefs) differs in some respects from the position that applies to tickets bought under the NRCoT.

Will London Underground tickets containing the appropriate zones be interavailable on the newly-opened section?
Yes. This is possibly the only area where passengers benefit from TfL's position being more generous than the default position under the NRCoT (there's nothing forcing them to offer this interavailability).

Similarly, will National Rail only tickets (not containing a Maltese Cross) containing validity between Paddington - Liverpool Street - Abbey Wood be interavailable on any Tube lines or the DLR, such as Central, Hammersmith & City and Circle lines, subject to the usual restriction that it can't be used at intermediate non-National Rail stations?
No, there will be no additional validity on the Tube or DLR through the opening of the Crossrail core. I can't think of many National Rail tickets which would be valid across the Core but that lack a Maltese Cross, although I don't doubt there will be a few.

In the fare database, there are only U-zone, Bus & Tram Pass and Travelcard destinations defined from new stations, while there are only U-zone origins defined to new stations. I have heard a rumour that no point-to-point National Rail tickets will be available for any of the new stations and tickets are to be sold as U-zone tickets (which implies a true answer to question 1), is that true?
This is unfortunately correct. In many respects it is the greatest limitation on getting National Rail rate tickets which are valid on Crossrail, but ultimately there was never going to be anything forcing TfL to define fares in the same manner as other National Rail services.

It seems that the Abbey Wood branch will make Liverpool Street become the London Terminal with the shortest distance from the South East, as a result, a London Terminals ticket from the South East, if not prohibited by the routing, will automatically gain validity into Liverpool Street once Elizabeth line opens. Am I right here?
I cannot see anything wrong with this argument. Liverpool Street is a London Terminal. Under the NRCoT, the shortest route (or a direct train, if you have a ticket from Abbey Wood) is always valid subject to a route restriction, and there isn't a 'not Crossrail' or similar route restriction.

That said, I would anticipate difficulties if you tried to use such a ticket to enter or exit at the Liverpool Street LU gateline (which is where you the Crossrail platforms are accessed from, at least on the eastern side).

For journeys between the South East and Farringdon, will going via Elizabeth Line become the shortest compared to existing via City Thameslink routing, resulting in addition validity for a ticket to Farringdon with routes Any Permitted or Not via HS1?
Again, similarly to the above, I would concur but you would be likely to encounter practical issues if entering or exiting en-route. It's also worth noting that many tickets are specifically routed 'via City Thameslink', in which case the use of Crossrail is obviously not permitted. However, for the same price (or less than the additional cost of a 'standalone' Crossrail ticket/PAYG fare), you may be able to buy a ticket to London St Pancras. This sometimes has a different route, not prohibiting the use of Crossrail, for example from Abbey Wood the route of "paper" fares to St Pancras is 'not Underground', which is therefore valid on Crossrail.

How will the new stations behave in the Routeing Guide? I still can't see anything about the new stations. Will there be new routeing points defined?
It is unclear whether they will even be added to the Routeing Guide, or if so, whether there will be any mapped routes involving Crossrail. Abbey Wood is not currently a Routeing Point either. Like with the lack of station-specific fares, this may be one of the practical factors which prevents the use of Crossrail on certain tickets (e.g. where it is the fastest route, but not the shortest or within 3 miles thereof).
 

Starmill

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It's already an issue. For example if you want to go from City Thameslink to Greenhithe you cannot use Pay as you Go to Greenhithe yet, and National Rail Enquiries cannot find any fares for the new fastest route changing at Farringdon and Abbey Wood. The ticket machine at City Thameslink will probably sell you a London Terminals to Greenhithe Not Valid on HS1 ticket, but that's not valid for the journey via Farringdon.
 

hkstudent

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What I beg to differ is:
There's a fix list of London Terminals designated to each region. I would more tend to the approach of passive provision of London Terminals, which unless explicitly mentioned, no new London Terminals will be designated. This is particularly to TfL not being keen on NR fare setting, with the example of Shoreditch High Street not being marked as London Terminal for trying to extract more point to point season ticket revenue.
 

Starmill

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What I beg to differ is:
There's a fix list of London Terminals designated to each region. I would more tend to the approach of passive provision of London Terminals, which unless explicitly mentioned, no new London Terminals will be designated. This is particularly to TfL not being keen on NR fare setting, with the example of Shoreditch High Street not being marked as London Terminal for trying to extract more point to point season ticket revenue.
There's a list in the IDMS data feed yes, but there's not a restriction written down anywhere that says if the station isn't on the list you can't go to it.
 

JonathanH

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This is particularly to TfL not being keen on NR fare setting, with the example of Shoreditch High Street not being marked as London Terminal for trying to extract more point to point season ticket revenue.
Shoreditch High Street station being in Zone 1 was a DfT requirement, not a TfL one, based, as you say, on maintaining season ticket revenue. There is no logical reason for it to be a London Terminal or included in that group just because it is a Zone 1 station.

Many of the Crossrail decisions appear to be of necessity to maintain revenue rather than reduce fares for its users.

It's already an issue. For example if you want to go from City Thameslink to Greenhithe you cannot use Pay as you Go to Greenhithe yet, and National Rail Enquiries cannot find any fares for the new fastest route changing at Farringdon and Abbey Wood. The ticket machine at City Thameslink will probably sell you a London Terminals to Greenhithe Not Valid on HS1 ticket, but that's not valid for the journey via Farringdon.
Don't you just need a Greenhithe to London Underground Zone 1-4 ticket to travel from Greenhithe to City Thameslink via Abbey Wood / Farringdon?
 

AM9

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Many of the Crossrail decisions appear to be of necessity to maintain revenue rather than reduce fares for its users.

Which in itself isn't necessarily a bad thing. It does of course offer many better travel options across the centre of London but the old routes are still there and may be a lot quieter one Crossrail opens.
 

island

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Don't you just need a Greenhithe to London Underground Zone 1-4 ticket to travel from Greenhithe to City Thameslink via Abbey Wood / Farringdon?
Such a ticket would certainly be valid, though pricewise it compares unfavourably to a single to London Terminals plus a contactless zone 1 single fare. I am not sure a ticket machine at City Thameslink would sell the correct ticket if asked.
 

Watershed

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Many of the Crossrail decisions appear to be of necessity to maintain revenue rather than reduce fares for its users.
A desire to mainain revenue. There's no need for the ticketing to be so complex, it's a choice.
 

JonathanH

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A desire to mainain revenue. There's no need for the ticketing to be so complex, it's a choice.
In the near term there is going to be PAYG on almost all of the journeys that use Crossrail once the extensions happen. That may well be a complete upheaval of rail fares in the South East just as it was in London in 2010. Something is needed for the short term as an overlay on what already exists.

It would be perverse to spend upwards of £18 billion to end up with passengers paying lower fares as a result and a reduction in revenue.
 

Starmill

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It would be perverse to spend upwards of £18 billion to end up with passengers paying lower fares as a result and a reduction in revenue.
That's of course precisely the idea behind most new railways. For example HS2.
 

Watershed

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In the near term there is going to be PAYG on almost all of the journeys that use Crossrail once the extensions happen. That may well be a complete upheaval of rail fares in the South East just as it was in London in 2010. Something is needed for the short term as an overlay on what already exists.
Indeed but the decision to apply a mixed-mode tax is separate from whether PAYG can be used. There is no real justification for why it can't be priced on the LO/TfL Rail scale, as with almost all other TfL-run National Rail services. It's all about the money.

It would be perverse to spend upwards of £18 billion to end up with passengers paying lower fares as a result and a reduction in revenue.
Except that's exactly what people claim will happen with the opening of HS2... I'll believe it when I see it!

Whilst I can perhaps understand (though don't agree with) charging a premium to use Crossrail beyond the London Termini, pretending that the Core is somehow magically not a National Rail service and so e.g. paper seasons to London Terminals aren't valid... is "interesting" to say the least.
 

greyman42

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According to the LNER website, Canary Wharf station does still not exist?
 

Starmill

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Whilst I can perhaps understand (though don't agree with) charging a premium to use Crossrail beyond the London Termini, pretending that the Core is somehow magically not a National Rail service and so e.g. paper seasons to London Terminals aren't valid... is "interesting" to say the least.
Luckily National Rail Enquiries backs up the accurate interpretation that a ticket from say Greenhithe to London Terminals is valid via Custom House as far as London Liverpool Street.
 

Watershed

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Luckily National Rail Enquiries backs up the accurate interpretation that a ticket from say Greenhithe to London Terminals is valid via Custom House as far as London Liverpool Street.
Give it time! I am sure 'appropriate action' will soon be taken to ensure this validity is no longer advertised. And regardless of what is advertised, I am sure you will have a hard time getting staff to let you through at Liverpool Street or Moorgate LU gatelines with a London Terminals ticket.
 

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Give it time! I am sure 'appropriate action' will soon be taken to ensure this validity is no longer advertised. And regardless of what is advertised, I am sure you will have a hard time getting staff to let you through at Liverpool Street or Moorgate LU gatelines with a London Terminals ticket.
Indeed. Probably even one to, say, Ingatestone.
 

swt_passenger

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Indeed. Probably even one to, say, Ingatestone.
Isn’t Moorgate LU already dealing with exit/entry using London Terminals tickets? AIUI they don’t check the origin/destination is logical. Current GE London terminals tickets are presumably valid at Liverpool St LU because of dual availability with the Central Line. Shouldn’t that be extended to Liverpool St Crossrail when the Shenfield trains divert?
 

Watershed

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Isn’t Moorgate LU already dealing with exit/entry using London Terminals tickets? AIUI they don’t check the origin/destination is logical. Current GE London terminals tickets are presumably valid at Liverpool St LU because of dual availability with the Central Line. Shouldn’t that be extended to Liverpool St Crossrail when the Shenfield trains divert?
Liverpool St Crossrail (which will be behind the Liverpool St LU barriers on the eastern side) will certainly be valid for tickets from Stratford and east thereof once that link opens - though this has been couched as 'interavailability', rather than a consequence of the fact that the Crossrail LL platforms at either end are London Terminals.

Given that the western side of Liverpool St Crossrail will end up at Moorgate, it strikes me that we will finally have a London Terminal where tickets from either side of London are valid (tickets from the ECML being valid into Moorgate, and tickets from the GEML being valid into Liverpool St Crossrail and thus by extension, Moorgate).
 

johnny_t

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I have to go to Heathrow (from Selby) in mid-June. Normally I buy a 'via London Underground' ticket and go out on the Piccadilly line from Kings Cross as, to be honest, there's no real time saving to go to Paddington and then change to the Heathrow Express or TFL Rail.

What sort of ticket would I need to buy no if I did want to go via the Elizabeth Line ? How could I force the ticketing websites to show me these, as they probably won't be the quickest or cheapest route ?
 

Watershed

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I have to go to Heathrow (from Selby) in mid-June. Normally I buy a 'via London Underground' ticket and go out on the Piccadilly line from Kings Cross as, to be honest, there's no real time saving to go to Paddington and then change to the Heathrow Express or TFL Rail.

What sort of ticket would I need to buy no if I did want to go via the Elizabeth Line ? How could I force the ticketing websites to show me these, as they probably won't be the quickest or cheapest route ?
You would need a ticket to Heathrow Rail - but through tickets are generally priced at a significant premium as they are valid on the Heathrow Express, unless stated otherwise. Using contactless/Oyster or a split paper ticket is likely to be the cheapest option; split ticketing sites would recommend this if you enter via Hayes & Harlington for example (as Heathrow Express services don't have that station in their schedules, so are not detected as running that way).

Despite ostensibly having to buy London Underground Zone Uxxxx tickets for journeys to/from the Core (some National Rail tickets are also valid, as discussed above), you cannot use Zone Uxxxx tickets to travel to Heathrow on Crossrail. So you effectively pay a Crossrail tax twice if you use a paper ticket between the Core and Heathrow! TfL want to have their cake and eat it, it seems :s
 

HORNIMANS

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You would need a ticket to Heathrow Rail - but through tickets are generally priced at a significant premium as they are valid on the Heathrow Express, unless stated otherwise. Using contactless/Oyster or a split paper ticket is likely to be the cheapest option; split ticketing sites would recommend this if you enter via Hayes & Harlington for example (as Heathrow Express services don't have that station in their schedules, so are not detected as running that way).

Despite ostensibly having to buy London Underground Zone Uxxxx tickets for journeys to/from the Core (some National Rail tickets are also valid, as discussed above), you cannot use Zone Uxxxx tickets to travel to Heathrow on Crossrail. So you effectively pay a Crossrail tax twice if you use a paper ticket between the Core and Heathrow! TfL want to have their cake and eat it, it seems :s
Can I travel in Elizabeth line with an All Line rail rover ticket?
 

Starmill

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Despite ostensibly having to buy London Underground Zone Uxxxx tickets for journeys to/from the Core (some National Rail tickets are also valid, as discussed above), you cannot use Zone Uxxxx tickets to travel to Heathrow on Crossrail. So you effectively pay a Crossrail tax twice if you use a paper ticket between the Core and Heathrow! TfL want to have their cake and eat it, it seems :s
Although I wonder if despite their not being valid they are in fact accepted by the staff. That's certainly been the position with, for example, the North London Line, despite this having never been a part of the Underground.
 

hkstudent

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As a sideline, seems that the journey planner got no interchange time at Canary Wharf to LU.

And seems that the system cannot offer via Elizabeth Line fare to Paddington nor Farringdon despite being direct.
 

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lancededcena

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I will be going from Liverpool Street to Marylebone via the Elizabeth Line changing at Paddington for Bakerloo. Am I correct in saying that my ticket which includes the Maltese Cross would be valid on that service.

I know Paddington has multiple entrances for the Circle+H&C and the District+Bakerloo, do you know if I would have to pass through two gatelines to interchange for the Bakerloo line or will it be contained by a cross-platform link? Sorry, I haven't really been keeping up much with the Elizabeth Line!
 

swt_passenger

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I will be going from Liverpool Street to Marylebone via the Elizabeth Line changing at Paddington for Bakerloo. Am I correct in saying that my ticket which includes the Maltese Cross would be valid on that service.

I know Paddington has multiple entrances for the Circle+H&C and the District+Bakerloo, do you know if I would have to pass through two gatelines to interchange for the Bakerloo line or will it be contained by a cross-platform link? Sorry, I haven't really been keeping up much with the Elizabeth Line!
There’s actually a paid side interchange passageway (ie behind the barriers at low level) between Crossrail and Bakerloo at Paddington. I can’t say whether it will open on the same day as the rest though.
 

Watershed

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I will be going from Liverpool Street to Marylebone via the Elizabeth Line changing at Paddington for Bakerloo. Am I correct in saying that my ticket which includes the Maltese Cross would be valid on that service.

I know Paddington has multiple entrances for the Circle+H&C and the District+Bakerloo, do you know if I would have to pass through two gatelines to interchange for the Bakerloo line or will it be contained by a cross-platform link? Sorry, I haven't really been keeping up much with the Elizabeth Line!
Yes, Maltese Cross tickets will be accepted. The Elizabeth Line will be primarily accessed by a dedicated gateline/entrance to the south of the main trainshed, but there will be passages allowing direct access to both the Bakerloo and Circle & District line platforms. See here.
 

swt_passenger

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Yes, Maltese Cross tickets will be accepted. The Elizabeth Line will be primarily accessed by a dedicated gateline/entrance to the south of the main trainshed, but there will be passages allowing direct access to both the Bakerloo and Circle & District line platforms. See here.
I’ve asked in the construction thread about the District/Circle, because that drawing follows the original ideas, the as built Bakerloo passageway followed a different deeper route, and I‘m suspicious about whether the changes removed the possibility of a paid side interchange with the Praed St platforms. It may be through the gatelines.

Edit at 1500,

Following this up, it’s been confirmed in the construction discussion that the paid side District/Circle route was dropped.
 
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