TfL: Bus driver breaches TfL policy over disability priority

[Ianno87]

The only way round all of this is for the wheelchair space to be locked shut when no wheelchair is occupying the space, and for the driver to unlock it if a wheelchair passenger wishes to travel. A separate space to be provided for a buggy. More than one wheelchair or one buggy then the passenger has to wait for the next bus.

The actual way round all of this is for us all to behave like decent, considerate, thoughtful human beings towards each other.

 

[DaveLondon]

As some of the more informed people have been saying the Legal Case involving First did clarify to an extent priorities.

TfL vehicles state clearly that a wheelchair user has priority over a child's buggy and one of the recorded announcements requests that space is made for a boarding user.

Sadly the world is very far from equal and the Equality Act attempts to lessen those inequalities the inevitably still exist

 

[herb21]

In what way is my response "frightening"?

Equality act, the clue is in the name. Equality means treating everyone EQUALLY, ie the SAME. If an able bodied person can't get on a bus because it is full then why should a wheelchair user or a parent with a pram?

If a wheelchair user can't get on a bus because it is already at maximum capacity, do you just throw people off to let the wheelchair user on? No, they wait for the next bus like everyone else.

If a wheelchair user can't get on a bus because there is already a wheelchair user on the bus do you throw the wheelchair user already on the bus off to allow the other person on? No.

I've come across plenty of rude wheelchair users who act like they should be treated like sodding royalty because they're in a wheelchair and if they don't get what they want they get shouty and abusive.........or write to a local rag.

On a double decker the able bodied have around 70-80 places the wheelchair users 1 or 2. The wheelchair user isn't asking the able bodied user to get out of the able bodied space but rather out of the wheelchair space. If there was another wheelchair user they would need to wait. Providing the usable wheelchair space is what provides equal access, not just its existence but lack of usability. The act and the concept refer to equality of opportunity not treating everyone the same.

Taking your argument to its reductive extreme you would say that if the bus had 1 passenger on board who chose to stand in the wheelchair space on a first come first serve basis, the wheelchair user should be denied boarding and that's ”equality”.

 

[ComUtoR]

This is 2019 for god's sake not 1979. You do know that 'Disability' is one of the protected characteristics of the Equality Act? Having a child in a pram isn't.

Not all disabilities are visible. Babies, oddly enough, also have disabilities.

 

[CM]

Taking your argument to its reductive extreme you would say that if the bus had 1 passenger on board who chose to stand in the wheelchair space on a first come first serve basis, the wheelchair user should be denied boarding and that's ”equality”.

Good grief, apply a bit of common bloody sense!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I fail to see how it is fair - why should another passenger have to leave the bus so that another passenger who needs the space can get on? Shouldn't all passengers should be treated as equals?

Buggies can be folded, and for that reason non-foldable buggies are not permitted on the bus at all, so if someone had a non-foldable buggy on the bus they should indeed be told to leave.

It is inconvenient, but that is all it is. In the days of high floor buses they were always folded and parents coped.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not all disabilities are visible. Babies, oddly enough, also have disabilities.

They do, but it's practical to hold a baby with most disabilities while the pushchair is folded, but not to do so for an adult.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The actual way round all of this is for us all to behave like decent, considerate, thoughtful human beings towards each other.

Well, quite. If that bus wasn't in aggressive, selfish London (other aggressive large cities are available), but was instead, say, in a small town in Yorkshire, things would have been rejigged as necessary to get everyone on.

Equally, you can't expect the driver to do much more than make an announcement as he may be at risk of assault if he does intervene. Most bus drivers are strictly instructed never to leave the cab, particularly in the event of a dispute over boarding.

 

[richw]

Surely it should be first come first served with regards to space on a bus? People in wheelchairs keep saying they wanted to be treated equally to everyone else yet when it suits them, they want priority over everyone else. Can't have it both ways!

If the bus is full and you can't get on then simply wait on the next one or find alternative arrangments just like EVERYONE else has to do!

Was it ever clearly established that the driver is expected to demand that the buggies be removed from the wheelchair area and what the driver is supposed to do if the owners of the buggies refuse?

There was a court case in the recent past where somebody took First to court the outcome of which was a judge's ruling that said something like a wheelchair user should have priority over the wheelchair place and the company (i.e. driver) should attempt to ensure they do.

If the vehicle is full to capacity, then yes it is first come first served. This bus wasn’t full to capacity as he allowed 8 walking people to board from behind the wheelchair user In the queue.

I was trained that the bus doesn’t move until the buggies are cleared out the way, and wheelchair is on, however that is achieved whilst avoiding conflict seems easier said than done. Glad it’s not a situation I’ve experienced yet.

 

[Non Multi]

Turfing off parents with buggies mid-journey isn't particularly clever either. Pretty much an invitation to go to the local car dealership and sign a PCP deal.

If a wheelchair user has absolute priority over buggies or anyone else, there needs to be clear signage stating that in the space.

 

[AM9]

Buggies can be folded, and for that reason non-foldable buggies are not permitted on the bus at all, so if someone had a non-foldable buggy on the bus they should indeed be told to leave.

It is inconvenient, but that is all it is. ...

Precisely! If a passenger boards the bus with a permitted (i.e. folding) push chair for their child, they are in effect accepting that they will be required to vacate the marked wheelchair space if a passenger in a wheelchair subsequently requires to board. That obligation is absolute and cannot be ignored if their child is asleep, they have got too much shopping loaded - or they just can't be arsed. If they can't accept that then don't board the bus in the first place. These abusers of the Equality law and its rules are just another part of the evfer worsening self-entitlement culture. It seems that some posters here are also sympathetic to that attitude.

 

[Mag_seven]

I'm sure there is a sign on our local buses that states that the wheelchair space "must" be vacated if required by a wheelchair or words to that effect. The clue I suppose is in the name "wheelchair space".

 

[cactustwirly]

There was a court case in the recent past where somebody took First to court the outcome of which was a judge's ruling that said something like a wheelchair user should have priority over the wheelchair place and the company (i.e. driver) should attempt to ensure they do.

But which court was that? Only courts such as the High Court, Court of appeal, and Supreme court can make legal precedents.

 

[richw]

Turfing off parents with buggies mid-journey isn't particularly clever either.

Duty of care to the child comes into play, a new mum can also be quite vulnerable, but that’s often overlooked.

It’s a no win situation for the driver if both parties won’t cooperate

 

[Stan Drews]

But which court was that? Only courts such as the High Court, Court of appeal, and Supreme court can make legal precedents.

It was the Supreme Court.
https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2015-0025.html

 

[Bletchleyite]

Duty of care to the child comes into play, a new mum can also be quite vulnerable, but that’s often overlooked.

Mums, new and old, managed just fine in the days of high floor buses.

 

[cactustwirly]

It was the Supreme Court.
https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2015-0025.html

I thought so, a legal precendent therefore exists for this thing. Surely this means that this would be an offence under common law?

 

[richw]

Mums, new and old, managed just fine in the days of high floor buses.

Don’t dispute that, but times have changed for Better or worse.
Expectation for Corporate responsibility is massively high.
There are so many categories of people these days that are deemed vulnerable, it’s shorter to define who isn’t.

 

[Bluebirdscot66]

Advice given as I understand was that to state to the person occupying the wheelchair space that after being politely but firmly asked to move and they still don’t well to state that they are “required “ to move to another part of the vehicle as this is the only safe place for the wheelchair/ priority user to be on board , and if further refusal after this has been stated then to consider refusing to drive further . My experience has been that if it’s explained properly and politely that they shuffle up the aisle to allow wheelchair user to board . I’ve came across the scenario where 2 prams on board , 1 dismantled , while newborn still asleep, put the body of the Pram on a seat and the other temporary got off to allow user to board then got back on . It took a while to negotiate this and the bus behind did eventually catch Up a dozen or so stops along the route ... empty . .

 

[Bletchleyite]

The "newspaper method" can I guess pay dividends...

 

[Wolfie]

No, I wouldn't expect a wheelchair user to do that. I'd expect them to wait for the next bus. You've clearly missed my point or you're just ignoring it completley.

What you would expect really doesn't matter! Parliament has legislated and the Supreme Court has interpreted. You are wrong, end of!

 

[Wolfie]

But which court was that? Only courts such as the High Court, Court of appeal, and Supreme court can make legal precedents.

The Supreme Court! There were not, as some have stated, already two buggies on either. The driver let a second buggy on and refused the wheelchair user!

 

[Wolfie]

And the two buggies that were clearly stated as being onboard the already packed vehicle? Perhaps neither of these buggies could be folded or the parents were unable to for various reasons? What would you reccomend then? Just turf the prams off the bus and let the wheelchair on and then two parents with young babies left out in the cold waiting for the next bus?

If I'm waiting at a bus stop and the bus I want turns up full, I let it go and get the next one or go for a bus on different route. I certainly don't go running to the nearest toilet paper distributor to complain about it.

Every London bus clearly states that wheelchair users have priority in the wheelchair (not buggy) space.

The priority is made very clear in TfL Conditions of Carriage 10.1.3 and 11.2 - see link.

https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/terms-...FjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw0oJ3X4oAkzhluYYmhEF5gX

 

[Ianno87]

Duty of care to the child comes into play, a new mum can also be quite vulnerable, but that’s often overlooked.

It’s a no win situation for the driver if both parties won’t cooperate

For that reason Maternity is also a protected characteristic under the equality act, up to 26 weeks after birth of the child.

Mums, new and old, managed just fine in the days of high floor buses.

No they didn't. Low floor buses have significantly opened up use of public transport to *parents* (not just mums) with young children.

Today, I can't imagine how much more difficult getting around with a pram would be than even 10 years ago.

 

[herb21]

Good grief, apply a bit of common bloody sense!

Obviously, but it highlights the absurdity of your argument, it is the point of a reductive argument.

 

[duncanp]

I have some sympathy for the bus driver here.

I understand what the law says, and of course people should move to make way for a wheelchair, if possible.

But it is one thing to make a law, and quite another thing to apply it in practice.

What is the bus driver supposed to do if the buggy user(s) do not co-operate and simply refuse to fold up their buggies?

It is easy to say "..stop the bus and refuse to drive further..", but this creates confrontation, and if you are a bus driver it is not pleasant to have to do this, perhaps multiple times in the course of one shift. I can therefore understand, if not excuse, the reluctance of some drivers to pick up wheelchair users.

What is the buggy user supposed to do if there is no room to safely store the buggy, once folded, and what is the bus driver supposed to do if allowing the wheelchair user to board would mean that the safe capacity of the bus is exceeded?

I don't think it is right that anyone should be asked to leave the bus in order to make room for a wheelchair user, and I think that TfL's terms and conditions specifically state that no-one already travelling will be asked to leave the bus. Sooner or later there will be probably be another court case, this time brought by a buggy user, who is asked to leave a bus after already having paid their fare.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No they didn't. Low floor buses have significantly opened up use of public transport to
*parents* (not just mums) with young children.

They have made it easier, no doubt. But parents with children used buses for years. In the interim, people have become soft because the two car family has become the norm. My Mum used buses and trains with me in the pram, and pushed my pram miles to walk places because my Dad needed the car for work.

We shouldn't go back to those times, as low-floor buses have made things much easier. But if someone who has no other choice wishes to board - someone in a wheelchair - get the pram folded and stop whining. And if you want to travel by bus, don't buy a non-foldable pram, there are plenty of foldable ones on the market.

 

[Wolfie]

I have some sympathy for the bus driver here.

I understand what the law says, and of course people should move to make way for a wheelchair, if possible.

But it is one thing to make a law, and quite another thing to apply it in practice.

What is the bus driver supposed to do if the buggy user(s) do not co-operate and simply refuse to fold up their buggies?

It is easy to say "..stop the bus and refuse to drive further..", but this creates confrontation, and if you are a bus driver it is not pleasant to have to do this, perhaps multiple times in the course of one shift. I can therefore understand, if not excuse, the reluctance of some drivers to pick up wheelchair users.

What is the buggy user supposed to do if there is no room to safely store the buggy, once folded, and what is the bus driver supposed to do if allowing the wheelchair user to board would mean that the safe capacity of the bus is exceeded?

I don't think it is right that anyone should be asked to leave the bus in order to make room for a wheelchair user, and I think that TfL's terms and conditions specifically state that no-one already travelling will be asked to leave the bus. Sooner or later there will be probably be another court case, this time brought by a buggy user, who is asked to leave a bus after already having paid their fare.

You are absolutely right that TfL's CofCs (which l posted) say that no-one already on (which one of the buggies was not if you read the Standard story) will be asked to leave the bus. They do though say that you must fold the buggy and vacate the wheelchair space if it is needed by a wheelchair user.
Given the extant Supreme Court ruling about priorities no law firm would be stupid enough to try to litigate about a buggy user being asked to fold their buggy. If they refuse they might well be faced with a choice of fold or get off. It is their choice whether to comply with the CofCs or alight. Suing because you wish to break the law isn't clever or likely to be successful - costs, which could be damned hefty, would likely be awarded against anyone stupid enough to try.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is the bus driver supposed to do if the buggy user(s) do not co-operate and simply refuse to fold up their buggies?

It is easy to say "..stop the bus and refuse to drive further..", but this creates confrontation, and if you are a bus driver it is not pleasant to have to do this, perhaps multiple times in the course of one shift. I can therefore understand, if not excuse, the reluctance of some drivers to pick up wheelchair users.

The "newspaper method" is quite effective. Stop the engine, get out the newspaper, make a quick PA of why you are not moving. In near enough every case other passengers will resolve the issue.

I have seen this done lots of times, and it's never the driver that gets the abuse, it's the errant passenger.

 

[carlberry]

I don't think it is right that anyone should be asked to leave the bus in order to make room for a wheelchair user, and I think that TfL's terms and conditions specifically state that no-one already travelling will be asked to leave the bus. Sooner or later there will be probably be another court case, this time brought by a buggy user, who is asked to leave a bus after already having paid their fare.

It would be difficult to construct such a case beyond the basic issue which is that somebody paid for a bus journey but didn't follow the standard terms and conditions and, as those conditions are reasonable, understandable and (in this case) are designed to support the law, the maximum compensation would be the refund of what they paid for the journey. It may even be possible they could be asked to compensate for the delay they caused!