TfL journey planner ignores Thameslink/Elizabeth Line... why?

[BRX]

I don't understand why this happens.
If I search for a journey from Loughborough Junction to Heathrow T2, 6am on the 29th December, NRE shows me what seems to me the most obviously convenient route: Thameslink straight to Farrngdon, then Elizabeth Line straight to Heathrow:


But asking the TfL journey planner (or TfL Go app) produces this:



Even if I select options like "fewest changes", it doesn't find the TL/EL route. What it suggests takes longer, has many more changes, and is more expensive.

Seems like something is broken somewhere. It's not just for that day/time - it was the same for a similar journey a few weeks ago. TfL's system is clearly aware of the TL and EL services, because it will show me them if I search for each journey segment individually.

 

[Benjwri]

Seems like something is broken somewhere. It's not just for that day/time - it was the same for a similar journey a few weeks ago. TfL's system is clearly aware of the TL and EL services, because it will show me them if I search for each journey segment individually.

Having played around with it a bit it seems to absolutely hate suggesting a transfer at Farringdon between TL and EZ, even travelling on routes where the only obvious option is between the two you have to absolutely force it to choose that route.

In general it seems TfL's journey planners hate recommending the Elizabeth Line from what I've found, which is very odd given it is their brand new railway.

 

[JonathanH]

Is it imposing a time penalty at Farringdon that means it is not the fastest route?

 

[Benjwri]

Is it imposing a time penalty at Farringdon that means it is not the fastest route?

No, if you attempt to create a journey between Loughborough Junction and Bond Street, following fastest route, its initial suggestion is a bus to Brixton and then Victoria Line to Oxford Circus, followed by a walk to Bond Street, which it claims will take 36 minutes. If you limit it to just using National Rail and Elizabeth Line it suggests the intended routing, which it claims will take 30 minutes, and therefore a shorter time. The only thing I can think of is for some reason it isn't thinking of this route using it's normal search function.

Coincidentally it should actually favour this route more than National Rail, since it offers me a journey on a TL train arriving 06:18, and an EL service leaving at 06:34, which is only a 6 minute connection. The minimum connection time between XR and TL at Farringdon is 8 minutes, so National Rail Journey Planners should actually find this a less favourable route.

 

[BRX]

Citymapper manages to find it (and seems to imply a 3 minute interchange at Farringdon)

 

[Benjwri]

(and seems to imply a 3 minute interchange at Farringdon)

TfL's interchange is just about reasonable, I would wish anyone trying to make a 3 minute interchange luck though!

 

[CyrusWuff]

TfL's interchange is just about reasonable, I would wish anyone trying to make a 3 minute interchange luck though!

Specified minimum interchange times for Farringdon in National Rail data are 3 minutes (standard), 5 minutes (Elizabeth Line to Elizabeth Line), or 8 minutes (Elizabeth Line to Thameslink or vice versa.)

Not sure what timings TfL are using though.

 

[Benjwri]

Specified minimum interchange times for Farringdon in National Rail data are 3 minutes (standard), 5 minutes (Elizabeth Line to Elizabeth Line), or 8 minutes (Elizabeth Line to Thameslink or vice versa.)

Not sure what timings TfL are using though.

Yes and Cityplanner is suggesting a 3 minute interchange between Thameslink and Elizabeth Line, the NR minimum interchange times are generous, but with the size of Elizabeth Line stations, and the ticket lines, I wouldn't rate your chances.

 

[Wolfie]

Having played around with it a bit it seems to absolutely hate suggesting a transfer at Farringdon between TL and EZ, even travelling on routes where the only obvious option is between the two you have to absolutely force it to choose that route.

In general it seems TfL's journey planners hate recommending the Elizabeth Line from what I've found, which is very odd given it is their brand new railway.

I suspect that it is more that TfL's planner defaults to TfL services and therefore doesn't put you on Thameslink if it can avoid it. I have seen similar before.

 

[BRX]

Yes and Cityplanner is suggesting a 3 minute interchange between Thameslink and Elizabeth Line, the NR minimum interchange times are generous, but with the size of Elizabeth Line stations, and the ticket lines, I wouldn't rate your chances.

No ticket lines to go through at Farringdon if you change between TL and EL.

3 minutes might be just possible - but of course you then have to add on the wait time for the next Heathrow service and cityplanner doesn't seem to really take that into account.

 

[Benjwri]

I suspect that it is more that TfL's planner defaults to TfL services and therefore doesn't put you on Thameslink if it can avoid it. I have seen similar before.

In this case it seems it is trying to avoid the Elizabeth Line as well though, perhaps it has been given the same priority as National Rail. If you exclude buses routes from Loughborough Junction will take you on Thameslink but still seemingly try to avoid the Elizabeth Line.

It also seems to be veryintent on using HeX rather than XR.

 

[BRX]

I suspect that it is more that TfL's planner defaults to TfL services and therefore doesn't put you on Thameslink if it can avoid it. I have seen similar before.

And yet Thameslink is there on the map when you open the TfL Go app, and is one of the routes it reports live disruptions on.

In this case it seems it is trying to avoid the Elizabeth Line as well though, perhaps it has been given the same priority as National Rail. If you exclude buses routes from Loughborough Junction will take you on Thameslink but still seemingly try to avoid the Elizabeth Line.

It also seems to be veryintent on using HeX rather than XR.

On the TfL Go app, if I restrict modes to just national rail and elizabeth line, it simply claims no routes are available at all.

 

[Benjwri]

On the TfL Go app, if I restrict modes to just national rail and elizabeth line, it simply claims no routes are available at all.

Yes it seem to have further difficulty past Paddinton

 

[dastocks]

The TfL planner might be influenced by the relatively low frequency of services from Loughborough Junction to Farringdon. If you just miss a departure you automatically add 15 minutes to the journey time.

Yes and Cityplanner is suggesting a 3 minute interchange between Thameslink and Elizabeth Line, the NR minimum interchange times are generous, but with the size of Elizabeth Line stations, and the ticket lines, I wouldn't rate your chances.

It may be Citymapper incorporates *real* journey times into its algorithm in the same way that Google and Waze do for road trips. Northbound TL to EL at Farringdon is very quick if you're at the back of the TL train; there are no ticket gates to go through. EL to TL southbound could probably take a bit longer than 8 minutes if you're at the wrong end of the EL platform and there's a queue for the lifts.

Google seems to prefer the EL via Farrigdon as well, and its route via Victoria prefers taking the District/Piccadilly lines from there.

 

[Benjwri]

The TfL planner might be influenced by the relatively low frequency of services from Loughborough Junction to Farringdon. If you just miss a departure you automatically add 15 minutes to the journey time.

Even if you force it to travel via Thameslink though, it'll still try to avoid using the Elizabeth Line and take you on a slower route via the tube.

 

[Horizon22]

Yes and Cityplanner is suggesting a 3 minute interchange between Thameslink and Elizabeth Line, the NR minimum interchange times are generous, but with the size of Elizabeth Line stations, and the ticket lines, I wouldn't rate your chances.

Yeah sounds like its not been programmed properly. 3 minutes should be the default same platform Thameslink / Elizabeth line interchange (for example changing off a service from Shenfield to go to Heathrow). As Farringdon is in the "core" for both these operators in order to get to/from any of the 'branches'.

Oddly I've found TfL Go generally better than the TfL Website for recommending the Elizabeth line; the latter it often weirdly attempts to avoid. I imagine there is some sort of logic in there somewhere being weird or as @Wolfie suggested prioritising (to the extreme) all TfL services, not Thameslink.

And yet Thameslink is there on the map when you open the TfL Go app, and is one of the routes it reports live disruptions on.

Albeit vague - it just has a link to Thameslink's website with no detail. I am not sure if there some arrangement between GTR and TfL that they have to report service status in the same way as operators with TfL branding do - maybe it was a quid pro quo for being on the map!