TfL - Misuse of Freedom Pass

[Ubul]

Hello everyone,

I desperately need some advice, please. A few days ago I was stopped by some TfL inspectors at Baker Street, inside the station and just as I was about to leave the station, they quickly ushered me into some sort of an office where they read out my rights.

They basically showed me some CCTV images of me going through the gates in Stratford and Baker Street, and also showed me several weeks of journey history linked to a Freedom Pass. They then asked me questions but I answered no comment to all. By the end of the interview BTP turned up who searched me and they found the Feeedom Pass I have been using for around 2 months. The TfL inspector said that they would be in touch about the fare evasion.

I was then arrested for theft by finding and travelling on the railway without a ticket. I spent the night at the police station, interviewed and released the following day.

1. Can you please advise if the BTP will handle the case from here or the fare evasion part will still be passed back to TfL?
2. Just out of interest, how did the inspectors managedto track me down? Don't take me wrong, I put my hands up but I was really shocked as it looks like they arranged a sting to catch me. Surely, there must be some data protection implications or the RIPA still applies if they were covertly watching my movements.
3. What sort of punishment can I expect? I gave a no comment interview to the Police and I am planning to plead not guilty so to prolong the proceedings because I am planning to leave the country in a few month's time and I am not planning to return for a few years at least (I have a job offer for a 3 year contract in Australia). If I get a fine, I will just pay it but I can't be bothered to do unpaid work, I would rather spend a few weeks at His Majesty's pleasure.

Thanks very much for your help and suggestions.

 

[Haywain]

Hello everyone,

I desperately need some advice, please. A few days ago I was stopped by some TfL inspectors at Baker Street, inside the station and just as I was about to leave the station, they quickly ushered me into some sort of an office where they read out my rights.

They basically showed me some CCTV images of me going through the gates in Stratford and Baker Street, and also showed me several weeks of journey history linked to a Freedom Pass. They then asked me questions but I answered no comment to all. By the end of the interview BTP turned up who searched me and they found the Feeedom Pass I have been using for around 2 months. The TfL inspector said that they would be in touch about the fare evasion.

I was then arrested for theft by finding and travelling on the railway without a ticket. I spent the night at the police station, interviewed and released the following day.

1. Can you please advise if the BTP will handle the case from here or the fare evasion part will still be passed back to TfL?
2. Just out of interest, how did the inspectors managedto track me down? Don't take me wrong, I put my hands up but I was really shocked as it looks like they arranged a sting to catch me. Surely, there must be some data protection implications or the RIPA still applies if they were covertly watching my movements.
3. What sort of punishment can I expect? I gave a no comment interview to the Police and I am planning to plead not guilty so to prolong the proceedings because I am planning to leave the country in a few month's time and I am not planning to return for a few years at least (I have a job offer for a 3 year contract in Australia). If I get a fine, I will just pay it but I can't be bothered to do unpaid work, I would rather spend a few weeks at His Majesty's pleasure.

Thanks very much for your help and suggestions.

You committed a crime - that removes any protection on the grounds of data protection.

 

[richw]

You probably should be cooperative and look at offering a substantial out of court settlement offer if you plan to go to Australia for such a lengthy period. A criminal record could significantly impact your visa application

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

We do not generally heat of people being arrested and spending the night in police cells for ticketing matters so I assume the level of fare evasion is on an industrial scale. It sounds as though they had scrutinised the available data to work out that yoiu would be at Baker Street at a particular time. There is no data protection issue, detection and prevention of crime effectively come first.

I cannot comment on what will happen next as it depends on the level of evasion and exactly what offence you're charged with. It sounds as though this will end up at the Magistrates Court where you can expect to be fined and be given a criminal record, and have to pay court fees and a victim surcharge. Pleading Not Guilty when you are guilty will not help your case as you won't get any discount off the fine.

Do also note that railway ticketing offences are a serious matter. They're part of criminal law, not civil law like a parking ticket.

 

[Ubul]

You probably should be cooperative and look at offering a substantial out of court settlement offer if you plan to go to Australia for such a lengthy period. A criminal record could significantly impact your visa application

Hi, thanks for your response. I don't need a visa to Australia. And a no guilty ple means no conviction anyway. I'm even thinking about electing Crown Court and let them prove it.

Welcome to the forum!

We do not generally heat of people being arrested and spending the night in police cells for ticketing matters so I assume the level of fare evasion is on an industrial scale. It sounds as though they had scrutinised the available data to work out that yoiu would be at Baker Street at a particular time. There is no data protection issue, detection and prevention of crime effectively come first.

I cannot comment on what will happen next as it depends on the level of evasion and exactly what offence you're charged with. It sounds as though this will end up at the Magistrates Court where you can expect to be fined and be given a criminal record, and have to pay court fees and a victim surcharge. Pleading Not Guilty when you are guilty will not help your case as you won't get any discount off the fine.

Do also note that railway ticketing offences are a serious matter. They're part of criminal law, not civil law like a parking ticket.

Thanks for your message. I understand the BTP were involved because they have a base at Baker Street and one of the smarter inspectors thought, "why don't we involve them"... It was 2 journeys pretty much every day. I was nicked for the theft by finding and the fare evasion was just linked to it.

 

[Hadders]

Hi, thanks for your response. I don't need a visa to Australia. And a no guilty ple means no conviction anyway. I'm even thinking about electing Crown Court and let them prove it.

A not guiulty plea doesn't mean you won't be convicted. If you are found guilty by the court you will be convicted.

Based on what you have told us in this thread TfL have got you bang to rights. You've already said you 'put your hands up'

 

[Ubul]

A not guiulty plea doesn't mean you won't be convicted. If you are found guilty by the court you will be convicted.

Based on what you have told us in this thread TfL have got you bang to rights. You've already said you 'put your hands up'

Yes, I'm not trying to deny and I take responsibility.... but only after my departure from the country. And this is not the I hope "it will go away" mentality but just simply not to complicate things before my departure. As I said, if I am found guilty in absence and given a fine, I will make sure I pay it in full.

My original questions are not about how to get out of it, etc. like most members ask. I'm not asking for advice how to settle out of court. I'm not inventing a story to prove I'm innocent like many members do.
It's more about, a) is it now purely a BTP case or TfL will still take their share, b) how did they find me, c) what punishment I can expect?

 

[pelli]

2. Just out of interest, how did the inspectors managedto track me down? Don't take me wrong, I put my hands up but I was really shocked as it looks like they arranged a sting to catch me.

Channel 5's "Fare Dodgers: At War With The Law" shows that the system can flag up Oyster cards with suspicious journey patterns (not being touched in/out correctly at both ends of the journey in an attempt to dodge the full fare), after which inspectors travel to the relevant station and review CCTV footage of the gateline at the moment the card was used to get an image of the person using the card, and then later (assuming the travel pattern is relatively predictable) go out to try to catch the person in the act in a "sting" to obtain their details for prosecution. Possibly in your case the Freedom Pass was reported stolen/lost, and when it continued to be used, a similar procedure was undergone to obtain images of you using it and then catch you in the act.

 

[Ubul]

Channel 5's "Fare Dodgers: At War With The Law" shows that the system can flag up Oyster cards with suspicious journey patterns (not being touched in/out correctly at both ends of the journey in an attempt to dodge the full fare), after which inspectors travel to the relevant station and review CCTV footage of the gateline at the moment the card was used to get an image of the person using the card, and then later (assuming the travel pattern is relatively predictable) go out to try to catch the person in the act in a "sting" to obtain their details for prosecution. Possibly in your case the Freedom Pass was reported stolen/lost, and when it continued to be used, a similar procedure was undergone to obtain images of you using it and then catch you in the act.

That makes a lot of sense. I haven't heard of this before, and technology is truly amazing if they are really capable of doing this! Thanks for answering this part

 

[skyhigh]

And a no guilty ple means no conviction anyway. I'm even thinking about electing Crown Court and let them prove it.

Not a wise idea without proper advice. The fare evasion is an absolute slam dunk. And if BTP look to prosecute theft by finding, they have a solid case by the facts of "pass reported missing, pass continued to be used and was found on this person and there is CCTV showing them use the pass on X number of occasions".

You get a reduction for an early guilty plea, so I would suggest professional advice would be wise.

 

[furlong]

Have you been in trouble for anything previously? Professional legal advice would indeed be a good idea, otherwise you just have to wait to see what their next move will be. I reckon it would be tricky to separate the alleged offences, given the clear overlap of the facts and circumstances, and so I think this could encourage negotiation. The BTP has options to offer cautions that would avoid court and get the whole thing resolved quickly - something TfL can't do - but the BTP could also attempt to prevent you from leaving the country until the matter is resolved, and the Crown courts are pretty clogged up at the moment so stubbornness could trap you in the country for a few years.

 

[mikeg]

2. Just out of interest, how did the inspectors managedto track me down? Don't take me wrong, I put my hands up but I was really shocked as it looks like they arranged a sting to catch me. Surely, there must be some data protection implications or the RIPA still applies if they were covertly watching my movements.

I've spoken to my brother who is involved in enforcing byelaws for a different organisation and purpose. He's under the opinion that RIPA doesn't come into it as they were following the pass, not a person, nor does 'covertly watching ' your movements (there will have been CCTV notices everywhere if this was a TfL station.

3. What sort of punishment can I expect? I gave a no comment interview to the Police and I am planning to plead not guilty so to prolong the proceedings because I am planning to leave the country in a few month's time and I am not planning to return for a few years at least (I have a job offer for a 3 year contract in Australia). If I get a fine, I will just pay it but I can't be bothered to do unpaid work, I would rather spend a few weeks at His Majesty's pleasure.

Thanks very much for your help and suggestions.

Whilst not being able to advise on this, I'd be particularly wary of the theft by finding, please note this is a serious matter. Unfortunately you don't get to choose your punishment. That's not how the criminal justice system works.

Both myself and him think it would be well worth getting professional advice on this.

 

[matt_world2004]

I think the theft by finding charge will probably seriously jeopardise your working holiday trip to Australia. The only circumstance I can see the btp being called to a misuse of freedom pass incident is if you refused to hand over the card when requested. Or there is an aggrevating factor relating to how you came in possession with it

You need a solicitor

 

[Snow1964]

There is a chance that if you have been avoiding fares on an industrial scale, it may even get referred up from a magistrate to a judge as they have more sentencing powers.

A solicitor is probably best to advise, but if they get wind of your plan to abscond to Australia they might add surrender of your passport to any bail conditions.

 

[Llanigraham]

I do wonder whether BTP and/or TfL read this forum, as it would be remarkably easy for them to identify the OP from his posts on here.

 

[AlterEgo]

I beg the OP to engage a solicitor. Going to Australia and having a criminal record while there - or criminal proceedings live for theft when you enter - is a recipe for even bigger trouble.

Absconding during proceedings and then returning later will result in a world of further hurt.

 

[Ubul]

I beg the OP to engage a solicitor. Going to Australia and having a criminal record while there - or criminal proceedings live for theft when you enter - is a recipe for even bigger trouble.

Absconding during proceedings and then returning later will result in a world of further hurt.

That's fine, I will ask for legal advice and update here when I hear back. Thanks to everyone who responded.

 

[Bungle158]

A couple of points. Nipping off to Oz whilst awaiting criminal process is a recipe for disaster. They have a very comprehensive criminal data base down there and you risk immediate deportation, plus a forever ban. You may squeak through the border, but as an absconder,your name will flag up when immigration checks, national insurance queries, or even a traffic stop occur.

A conviction for theft will potentially scupper any chance of entry to Oz NZ, the US and, with ETIAS incoming, Europe as well. Whilst one-off minor ticketing issues may be overlooked, a record for theft or even fraud certainly won't be.

These are potential very serious matters. Please do take immediate legal advice

 

[zero]

The OP said they do not need a visa for Australia, which means they are an Australian citizen, or they are mistaken.

However it is true that after conviction they are likely to face trouble travelling to other countries, including possibly the UK if not a British citizen, and there is a possibility they may be prevented from leaving the UK, especially if all the details provided are true as it seems like they could readily be identified from these details.

 

[Gonzoiku]

The OP said they do not need a visa for Australia, which means they are an Australian citizen, or they are mistaken.

Or possibly that the necessary visa has already been granted?

GZ

 

[zero]

Or possibly that the necessary visa has already been granted?

Oh, well in that case a conviction could result in the visa being cancelled and the OP being deported, especially if there is a custodial sentence (which the OP appears to welcome), so they are not "safe" just by leaving the UK before any proceedings commence.

 

[danielcanning]

I've always wondered how do the U.S and other nations know if you have a criminal conviction? Customs and border force surely can't have access to our PNC database and an ESTA is usually granted in minutes so how could they feasibly know when someone with a minor conviction enters their country?

 

[skyhigh]

The OP said they do not need a visa for Australia, which means they are an Australian citizen, or they are mistaken.

Given the OP seems to think a not guilty plea will mean no conviction, I wouldn't take what they believe at face value without confirmation.

Hi, thanks for your response. I don't need a visa to Australia. And a no guilty ple means no conviction anyway.

 

[Elwyn]

I've always wondered how do the U.S and other nations know if you have a criminal conviction? Customs and border force surely can't have access to our PNC database and an ESTA is usually granted in minutes so how could they feasibly know when someone with a minor conviction enters their country?

I worked in that line of business some years ago.

The US did not have direct access to the PNC but there were legal arrangements for exchange of information in certain circumstances. Nowadays I think they require you to obtain a formal document from the UK police listing your convictions/confirming you have none, which has to accompany the visa application. More likely in a category of visa leading to settlement rather than for a visitor.

It’s probably correct that if someone failed to disclose a minor conviction it might not always be detected. On the other hand, a false statement on an ESTA or full visa application usually invalidates it and can lead to the person being refused entry or deported. So it would be foolish to conceal a conviction.

The US doesn’t recognise the UK’s Rehablitation of Offenders legislation and so requires information on convictions that would be regarded as long forgotten in the UK. That may just mean you have to apply for a visa instead of using ESTA but it can also lead to a visa being refused. I have no knowledge of Australia’s rules regarding declaration of convictions but they are probably on the Australian Government website which OP probably ought to study, if they aren’t an Australian citizen.

 

[island]

The US did not have direct access to the PNC but there were legal arrangements for exchange of information in certain circumstances. Nowadays I think they require you to obtain a formal document from the UK police listing your convictions/confirming you have none, which has to accompany the visa application. More likely in a category of visa leading to settlement rather than for a visitor.

The US requires that document (called an ACRO) to be produced for all visa applications, including visit visas, but not for ESTAs.

People travelling on an ESTA who are ineligible by criminal conviction may still be found out in other ways, and if they are, risk being dealt with more harshly as they would be classed as attempting to practice fraud to gain entry to the USA.

 

[AlterEgo]

I've always wondered how do the U.S and other nations know if you have a criminal conviction? Customs and border force surely can't have access to our PNC database and an ESTA is usually granted in minutes so how could they feasibly know when someone with a minor conviction enters their country?

It usually occurs when you are sent for secondary screening. There is shared intelligence although this does not amount to habitual access to the PNC.

Do not attempt to conceal or omit any information about any criminal matters when entering anywhere, especially not Australia.

 

[Wolfie]

Hello everyone,

I desperately need some advice, please. A few days ago I was stopped by some TfL inspectors at Baker Street, inside the station and just as I was about to leave the station, they quickly ushered me into some sort of an office where they read out my rights.

They basically showed me some CCTV images of me going through the gates in Stratford and Baker Street, and also showed me several weeks of journey history linked to a Freedom Pass. They then asked me questions but I answered no comment to all. By the end of the interview BTP turned up who searched me and they found the Feeedom Pass I have been using for around 2 months. The TfL inspector said that they would be in touch about the fare evasion.

I was then arrested for theft by finding and travelling on the railway without a ticket. I spent the night at the police station, interviewed and released the following day.

1. Can you please advise if the BTP will handle the case from here or the fare evasion part will still be passed back to TfL?
2. Just out of interest, how did the inspectors managedto track me down? Don't take me wrong, I put my hands up but I was really shocked as it looks like they arranged a sting to catch me. Surely, there must be some data protection implications or the RIPA still applies if they were covertly watching my movements.
3. What sort of punishment can I expect? I gave a no comment interview to the Police and I am planning to plead not guilty so to prolong the proceedings because I am planning to leave the country in a few month's time and I am not planning to return for a few years at least (I have a job offer for a 3 year contract in Australia). If I get a fine, I will just pay it but I can't be bothered to do unpaid work, I would rather spend a few weeks at His Majesty's pleasure.

Thanks very much for your help and suggestions.

You are, l assume, aware that you need to advise the Australian government of any criminal conviction and that any visa can be withdrawn as a result. You should also be aware that Australia and the UK work very closely together on immigration issues.

Hi, thanks for your response. I don't need a visa to Australia. And a no guilty ple means no conviction anyway. I'm even thinking about electing Crown Court and let them prove it.


Thanks for your message. I understand the BTP were involved because they have a base at Baker Street and one of the smarter inspectors thought, "why don't we involve them"... It was 2 journeys pretty much every day. I was nicked for the theft by finding and the fare evasion was just linked to it.

How the heck do you believe that a not guilty plea means no conviction? It actually means heavier punishment if convicted. On the facts as presented you will be.

 

[1D54]

As for skipping the country (no pun intended) there will almost certainly be a welcoming party at Heathrow to greet you when you return. Incoming flight manifests are screened for exactly that reason

 

[Ubul]

After pleading not guilty and electing crown court, the CPS withdrew the theft by finding charge to keep matters in the magistrates court. So now I only need to deal with the fare evasion which is non imprisonable and if I'm not around, it will be proved in absence and a fine will be imposed which I will pay. Bail is unconditional.

 

[mikeg]

Did you plead not guilty to both counts? You are aware the fine will be bigger if found guilty?