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TFL pass back question.

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londonbridge

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Haven’t searched so apologies if this has been asked before, if so mods please merge/delete as appropriate. When you tap an Oyster or contactless card what is the minimum waiting time before you can use it again without it being rejected as an attempted pass back?
 
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Haywain

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Haven’t searched so apologies if this has been asked before, if so mods please merge/delete as appropriate. When you tap an Oyster or contactless card what is the minimum waiting time before you can use it again without it being rejected as an attempted pass back?
I may be misunderstanding your question, but you can't use an Oyster card or a Contactless payment card for more than one passenger. If this is not what you mean, perhaps you can explain the circumstances you are thinking of in more detail.
 

londonbridge

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Sunderland have an FA Cup tie away at Fulham and the message boards are full of people asking about contactless and Oyster and why does everyone have to have a seperate card, why can’t you just tap a card and then hand it to the person with you for them to tap and put multiple fares on one card, etc. I know how the system works of course, I’m just trying to educate my fellow fans a bit.

More specifically I’m thinking if you tap in on the bus and then immediately tap again, it flags up as an attempted pass back. What about if you get on the bus and tap in and you’ve arranged to meet someone say five stops along the route, they get on and then you tap your card again to try and pay their fare. Yes I know that’s not in keeping with the rules, but presumably even though several minutes have passed it’d still see it as a pass back because you were tapping on the same bus? Whereas if you tap in, go one stop, get off and immediately tap in again on the bus behind the one you first got on, that’s not a pass back because you’re tapping on a different bus?

I also know of course that if you tap in at a train station and then try to tap in again (without exiting) it’ll mess things up completely.

Apart from which, this sort of thing will also help to educate ME sone more about how the system works.
 
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Benjwri

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What about if you get on the bus and tap in and you’ve arranged to meet someone say five stops along the route, they get on and then you tap your card again to try and pay their fare. Yes I know that’s not in keeping with the rules, but presumably even though several minutes have passed it’d still see it as a pass back because you were tapping on the same bus? Whereas if you tap in, go one stop, get off and immediately tap in again on the bus behind the one you first got on, that’s not a pass back because you’re tapping on a different bus?
London bus tap ins give you unlimited bus and tram tap ins for an hour after you make the first tap under the hopper fare scheme.
Pay as you go at adult rate on buses and trams and our Hopper fare gives you unlimited journeys for £1.65, made within one hour of touching in. Hopper fare also applies to discounted rate travel.

Touch in using the same card or device on all journeys and you get our Hopper fare automatically.

If you travel on Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line, IFS Cloud Cable Car or River Bus services in between Hopper journeys, you'll be charged a standard fare. The Hopper fare will still apply to any further bus and tram journeys made within one hour of first touching in.
If you tap again after an hour you'll just eb charged another £1.65

Regardless of how long after you tap though this is blatant fare evasion because bus fares have a cap, and you can't act over multiple people. If TfL catch you you'll end up with a Penalty Fare.
 

londonbridge

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Again, I know about hoppers, so let me try and put the question another way.

You tap on a bus, how long after your initial tap is it before the system sees it as you using the hopper fare and not an attempted pass back for someone else using the same card, and does it make a difference if the second tap is on the same bus or a different bus?
 

MikeWh

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More specifically I’m thinking if you tap in on the bus and then immediately tap again, it flags up as an attempted pass back. What about if you get on the bus and tap in and you’ve arranged to meet someone say five stops along the route, they get on and then you tap your card again to try and pay their fare. Yes I know that’s not in keeping with the rules, but presumably even though several minutes have passed it’d still see it as a pass back because you were tapping on the same bus? Whereas if you tap in, go one stop, get off and immediately tap in again on the bus behind the one you first got on, that’s not a pass back because you’re tapping on a different bus?
My understanding is that you can only touch in once on the same bus making the same journey. The bus computer is reset at the start of each journey. If revenue officers board they download a list of the cards validated on that journey and then get each passenger to present their card for checking. They would absolutely notice and have a huge problem if more than one passenger claimed to be using the same card.
 

akm

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Sunderland have an FA Cup tie away at Fulham and the message boards are full of people asking about contactless and Oyster and why does everyone have to have a seperate card, why can’t you just tap a card and then hand it to the person with you for them to tap and put multiple fares on one card, etc. I know how the system works of course, I’m just trying to educate my fellow fans a bit.

Do your fellow fans not already have contactless payment cards / Apple Pay devices / Google Pay devices that they routinely carry with them at all times when out of the house? It's that easy. You don't have to register, just tap and go.
 

flythetube

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If you have your card as both a physical card and a digital version on your phone then you one of you can tap in with your phone and give the physical card to your friend and both would accept without issue as the one on the phone uses a different virtual long card number for transactions than that of the physical card.

This would only work for 2 people travelling together.
 

Benjwri

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If you have your card as both a physical card and a digital version on your phone then you one of you can tap in with your phone and give the physical card to your friend and both would accept without issue as the one on the phone uses a different virtual long card number for transactions than that of the physical card.

This would only work for 2 people travelling together.
Would it? You would certainly have an extremely confusing journey history, as Apple Pay contactless journeys are normally included on the actual card's journey history, I assumed the back office system treated them as one, but have never tried it.
 

londonbridge

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Thanks for all the responses, like I said the main arguing on the boards is because some of them just don’t/can’t see why each person is meant to have and use a seperate card or device. There’s a lot of nonsense gets posted on Readytogo anyway so I thought I’d try and clear up some of their misconceptions.

I was actually quite surprised when my card was inspected on a bus just last week as I honestly have no idea of when I was last checked on a bus, well before the pandemic and at least five years or maybe even longer.
 

alistairlees

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You could explain it that each person must have a valid ticket; and a contactless card can only contain one 'ticket' (or 'pass') for one person. So each person needs a contactless card (or other alternative).
 

londonbridge

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Not so. If the OP were to touch twice on the same bus 30 minutes apart there would still only be one charge made.
So you tap on a bus, five mins later you jump off and get sone shopping. You are near the end of the route, the bus you were on reaches its terminus, sits for a few mins then starts its return journey. Meanwhile you’ve got your shopping and are back at the stop waiting to go home. Bus comes along, it’s the same bus you were originally on, so tap, five min journey, get off, fifteen mins to get your shopping, two mins later you tap in for return journey. That’s tapping on the exact same bus twice in 22 mins, but it’s seen as a hopper?
 

Haywain

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That’s tapping on the exact same bus twice in 22 mins, but it’s seen as a hopper?
Correct. Unlimited bus and tram tap-ins for an hour from the first one. Even if there's a train or tube journey in between
 

MikeWh

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So you tap on a bus, five mins later you jump off and get sone shopping. You are near the end of the route, the bus you were on reaches its terminus, sits for a few mins then starts its return journey. Meanwhile you’ve got your shopping and are back at the stop waiting to go home. Bus comes along, it’s the same bus you were originally on, so tap, five min journey, get off, fifteen mins to get your shopping, two mins later you tap in for return journey. That’s tapping on the exact same bus twice in 22 mins, but it’s seen as a hopper?
When the bus turns round and starts a new journey the computer is reset, so it's fine to touch in on the same physical bus again. If the touch is within an hour of the last chargeable bus tap then a hopper fare of £0.00 will be charged.

Note that you must still touch in. The fact that you touched in on that vehicle before will have been lost when the computer reset.
 

paninaro

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Not so. If the OP were to touch twice on the same bus 30 minutes apart there would still only be one charge made.
But at what point does it go from being rejected as a pass back, to being accepted but only one charge being made?
 

Haywain

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But at what point does it go from being rejected as a pass back, to being accepted but only one charge being made?
It would be rejected if the bus was still operating the same service that you boarded initially - before it reaches the terminus and the computer is reset.
 

zero

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In order for a fare system to allow multiple people to use one card at the same time, there can't be any form of capping or season tickets, otherwise unlimited people could travel for the price of one cap.

Many systems' fare cards, including Oyster, work in PAYG mode or season ticket mode. In some places, when the card is in PAYG mode, multiple people can use one card at the same time - for example Seville and Stockholm (not sure if still true), but if the card is in season mode then only one person can use it.

But when PAYG mode also comes with a daily/weekly/monthly cap then that's effectively the same as season mode.

Having a hopper fare doesn't in itself mean that a card can't be used for multiple people, for example Stockholm again, or Hong Kong. However in these two cases I believe the "hopper" only applies to 1 passenger on a card and not to additional passengers using the same card. (In Hong Kong the hopper only works on a specific list of bus routes. In Hong Kong the passback time is approximately 5 minutes, from personal experience.)
 

Surreytraveller

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Would it? You would certainly have an extremely confusing journey history, as Apple Pay contactless journeys are normally included on the actual card's journey history, I assumed the back office system treated them as one, but have never tried it.
Yep. There would be separate journey histories in your online account for each virtual number you use. I use one card, but have separate journey histories for the physical card, Google Pay and when I use it via Curve
 

SynthD

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When the bus turns round and starts a new journey the computer is reset, so it's fine to touch in on the same physical bus again. If the touch is within an hour of the last chargeable bus tap then a hopper fare of £0.00 will be charged.
I heard that hopper doesn’t work in the opposite direction. I’ve never remembered this at a time to test it. Is it true?
 

BJames

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There are definitely some oddities of the system. I have tapped in and then straight back out at Liverpool Street before because the train I wanted was too busy so I decided to go and get a drink and get on the next one (it was a Spurs home day and this was the last train that would make it in time for kick off). When I went to tap back in it rejected my (nominee) oyster card on the barriers and the member of staff tried the card on the stand-alone reader next to the wide gate (Plat 1-3 gateline) and it accepted it for entry. I'm not sure if the barriers thought I was trying to do something like pass-back but then because I'd exited I couldn't see why it would think that.

I heard that hopper doesn’t work in the opposite direction. I’ve never remembered this at a time to test it. Is it true?
Not sure this is true - in the days before my nominee pass I'm almost certain I've just been charged for one journey when I've used the same bus to get into my local town, it's gone on to it's destination, returned and I've got back on it to go home. As @MikeWh says the system is reset anyway so I don't see how this would work.
 

danm14

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I heard that hopper doesn’t work in the opposite direction. I’ve never remembered this at a time to test it. Is it true?
No, the hopper definitely does work in the opposite direction.

It's unconditional unlimited bus/tram travel within 62 minutes (advertised as one hour) of first touching in on a bus/tram.
 

Horizon22

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Thanks for all the responses, like I said the main arguing on the boards is because some of them just don’t/can’t see why each person is meant to have and use a seperate card or device. There’s a lot of nonsense gets posted on Readytogo anyway so I thought I’d try and clear up some of their misconceptions.

I was actually quite surprised when my card was inspected on a bus just last week as I honestly have no idea of when I was last checked on a bus, well before the pandemic and at least five years or maybe even longer.

I am surprised that football fans aren't aware about Oyster / Contactless in London even from other parts of the UK if they've travelled a fair bit as it's been around a while!

There are definitely some oddities of the system. I have tapped in and then straight back out at Liverpool Street before because the train I wanted was too busy so I decided to go and get a drink and get on the next one (it was a Spurs home day and this was the last train that would make it in time for kick off). When I went to tap back in it rejected my (nominee) oyster card on the barriers and the member of staff tried the card on the stand-alone reader next to the wide gate (Plat 1-3 gateline) and it accepted it for entry. I'm not sure if the barriers thought I was trying to do something like pass-back but then because I'd exited I couldn't see why it would think that.


Not sure this is true - in the days before my nominee pass I'm almost certain I've just been charged for one journey when I've used the same bus to get into my local town, it's gone on to it's destination, returned and I've got back on it to go home. As @MikeWh says the system is reset anyway so I don't see how this would work.

NR gatelines often have additional fare evasion measures placed on to prevent this sort of thing. If it was within the 2 minutes, I imagine it might be rejected.
 

BJames

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I am surprised that football fans aren't aware about Oyster / Contactless in London even from other parts of the UK if they've travelled a fair bit as it's been around a while!



NR gatelines often have additional fare evasion measures placed on to prevent this sort of thing. If it was within the 2 minutes, I imagine it might be rejected.
Interestingly it was 20 minutes later although I would not be surprised if the time was slightly higher because it is a high value pass.

I am also surprised at the fact that people aren't aware of this - especially the contactless element, contactless cards/Apple/Google Pay being pretty widespread amongst the population now.
 

Joshua_Harman

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My understanding is that you can only touch in once on the same bus making the same journey. The bus computer is reset at the start of each journey. If revenue officers board they download a list of the cards validated on that journey and then get each passenger to present their card for checking. They would absolutely notice and have a huge problem if more than one passenger claimed to be using the same card.
In My experience it resets after a few stops, on the stand alone readers The pass back message says “card already used on this journey” But if you wait a few more stops you can touch again and it will work, I Don’t Know about the drivers ticket machine reader, but the stand alone readers you can.
 

londonbridge

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I am surprised that football fans aren't aware about Oyster / Contactless in London even from other parts of the UK if they've travelled a fair bit as it's been around a while!
It’s not necessarily a case of being unaware of it, more a lack of understanding of how it works.
 
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