Tfl Staff Pass misuse on GA

[bluegoblin7]

I’ve come to this a bit late and I think most things have been covered, but if I can shed some light as both an LU Staff Member and an RMT Functional Rep then it might be of use - although this advice should not be taken as “official” and the OP should definitely seek advice from their local TU rep (or, if they are RMT, they are welcome to find my contact details via either the TfL Intranet or RMT e-Membership).

Firstly - TfL’s Staff Passes have very clear conditions of use that are issued with every pass, and these are also summarised in initial training. You’re encouraged to read them and the company takes a very dim view of misuse of staff travel facilities - it’s probably the easiest way to lose your job. Any angle around a lack of training won’t add up in disciplinary proceedings, particularly if the OP is a Train Op, and I would strongly recommend not going down this path. There are some limited reciprocal arrangements on this section for Elizabeth line and RfL(I) staff only, but they are so limited and specific that I would be surprised if most LU were even aware they existed, let alone the specifics.

Some have suggested that this may be a more widespread misunderstanding - it certainly isn’t the first time, but it is far from common. This will do nothing to help any mitigation on that angle and, again, would not be an approach I recommend. Again, as a Train Op you wouldn’t justify having a Spad because everyone else has had one.

I might have missed if there was a specific action the TOC were looking to take but that’s going to be the best focus of energy - if you can settle any payments required with the TOC so that they will not take any further action it’s likely that any LU proceedings can be managed to a good (well, least-worst) outcome.

It is hard to give much more advice without knowing what correspondence has been received (from any side) and what is being pursued, although anything beyond advice on dealing with the TOC probably isn’t appropriate for this forum.

Again: contact your rep if you haven’t already, and don’t agree to anything internally until you have spoken to them.

 

[Iscaredu]

Today I received the letter that I've seen on other posts on this forum, any advice to how I should respond? I know to be honest and admit fault, I'm more than happy to cover the cost of the fares plus admin fees etc

 

[AlterEgo]

Today I received the letter that I've seen on other posts on this forum, any advice to how I should respond? I know to be honest and admit fault, I'm more than happy to cover the cost of the fares plus admin fees etc

Speak to your rep first. As @bluegoblin7 notes this is a serious matter. Do not correspond with the company until you have spoken to your rep!

 

[ainsworth74]

Agree with @AlterEgo that you should speak with your rep urgently before corresponding with the company.

 

[D7666]

In this particular case, the Staff Oyster card conditions of use comprise four pages, including the cover page, and details exactly what it can be used on. That same information is repeated in the London Underground Traffic Circular on an occasional basis (though I appreciate the OP may not see that, depending on which part of TfL they work for.)

For reference, for NR services that list is:

• Elizabeth Line: Throughout
• London Overground: Throughout
• Amersham - Marylebone
• Euston - Watford Junction
• Fenchurch Street - Upminster
• Finsbury Park - Moorgate (via Drayton Park)
• Kentish Town - Elephant & Castle / London Bridge
• Liverpool Street - Stratford

But, just to prove how complex this one is, or, if you want to read it another way, why the term "NR" is not the right one in isolation.

Euston to Watford - which means all and any intermediate calls - is not all NR trains for staff oyster - the TfL staff doc explicitly states Euston WatfordJunction Avanti and LNW - but EXCLUDES Southern (which call Wembley Ctl, Harrow&W, WtfdJunc)

So not all NR services then. ***

Re the case in question, the current document explicitly does have GA Stratford / Shenfield "not valid" and even highlights this in a red block.

Like others I accept it is our individual responsibility to be familiar with all this, but also realise it is SO easy to fall into a trap. Our Oyster work the gate lines at Liverpool Street - all gates - and the Eliz line stations; it is *so* easy once through a gate and on a platform to confuse LST Stratford is valid on any thing, but east of Stratford only on Eliz.

I sympathise with the OP it is so easy to get this sort of thing wrong. But equally agree with bluegoblin that is not a good line of argument to follow; I'd sure not use it myself in these circumstances.

I am a Thameslink commuter. Per the list parts of TL core are in staff Oyster. My season is Luton to Kentish Town thence staff Oyster. I often interchange at West Hampstead. Time after time in auto pilot I swipe my Oyster at WH TL (where I should be inserting my TL season) - but staff oyster at WH LO and WH Jubilee stations. That one won't trip me up with unpaid fares, all it does it not open the gates, but it is so so easy to do. And I do do. It is not inconceivable one day I will do what the OP has done. Not intentionally for sure.


*** in practical terms, it is little different from any non staff ticket that is TOC specific; the onus is on the passenger to only travel by that TOC and not another one. True staff passes have a legacy history different to public fares, but the end result is the same, you must know the conditions.

 

[Iscaredu]

But, just to prove how complex this one is, or, if you want to read it another way, why the term NR is not the right one.

Euston to Watford - which means all and any intermediate calls - is not all NR trains - the TfL staff doc explicitly states Euston WatfordJunction Avanti and LNW - but EXCLUDES Southern (which call Wembley Ctl, Harrow&W)

So not all NR services then.

Re the case in question, the current document explicitly does have GA Stratford / Shenfield "not valid" and even highlights this in a red block.

Like others i accept it is our individual responsibility to be familiar with all this, but also realise it is SO easy to fall into a trap. Our Oyster work the gate lines at Liverpool Street - all gates - and the Eliz line stations; it is *so* easy once through a gate and on a platform to confuse LST Stratford is valid on any thing, but east of Stratford only on Eliz.

I sympathise with the OP it is so easy t get this sort of thing wrong.

I am a Thameslink commuter. Per the list parts of TL core are in staff Oyster. My season is Luton to Kentish Town thence staff Oyster. I often interchange at West Hampstead. time afdter time in auto pilot I swipe my Oyster at WH TL (where I should swipe my TL season) but it is staff oyster at WH LO and WH Jubilee. That one won't trip me up with unpaid fares, al it does it not open the gates, but it is so so easy to do. and i do.

Appreciate the explanation and maybe with time with the lizzy line now going to shenfield being under the umbrella of TFL, maybe they will extend the parallel running agreements as even when they're are line issues for GA towards shenfield they use the lizzy line track, or vice versa.

I'm in touch with my union reps about how I should respond but atm they agree with me responding and holding up my hands to deal with GA part of the problem.

 

[bramling]

Appreciate the explanation and maybe with time with the lizzy line now going to shenfield being under the umbrella of TFL, maybe they will extend the parallel running agreements as even when they're are line issues for GA towards shenfield they use the lizzy line track, or vice versa.

I'm in touch with my union reps about how I should respond but atm they agree with me responding and holding up my hands to deal with GA part of the problem.

I would certainly agree that the best way to get this buried as efficiently as possible is to try and settle with GA as quickly as possible. Though unfortunately this isn’t going to come cheap.

So long as it’s resolved properly with GA then there’s every chance it won’t escalate too far with TFL.

You will need to work out how many journeys there have been and offer GA an appropriate sum, plus of course an amount to cover their costs. What you must avoid is stating a number of journeys and then GA finding there have in fact been more than you have stated, so many sure you research your journey history thoroughly.

 

[Iscaredu]

I would certainly agree that the best way to get this buried as efficiently as possible is to try and settle with GA as quickly as possible. Though unfortunately this isn’t going to come cheap.

So long as it’s resolved properly with GA then there’s every chance it won’t escalate too far with TFL.

You will need to work out how many journeys there have been and offer GA an appropriate sum, plus of course an amount to cover their costs. What you must avoid is stating a number of journeys and then GA finding there have in fact been more than you have stated, so many sure you research your journey history thoroughly.

So my main issue is working out how many times I've used the service, I can make a rough estimate but it's hard to say exactly how many, should I just say how long I'd been using their service for, and let them come back to me with a sum? I'm happy to pay whatever they come back with just to put it to bed on their side.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

So my main issue is working out how many times I've used the service, I can make a rough estimate but it's hard to say exactly how many, should I just say how long I'd been using their service for, and let them come back to me with a sum? I'm happy to pay whatever they come back with just to put it to bed on their side.

Essentially you need to show that you are being fully honest. The ideal would be if you could demonstrate every trip you have taken - but pretty well by definition a pass doesn't give you that level of information. Neither can you look at bank statements for each ticket purchase.

But you do know when you started making the journey. And you know your shifts so you know how many times you could have made the journey. And you can probably make a fair guess as to how often you used the blocked route (every time? Once a week? Once a month?)

So you can come up with a decent estimate which you can present to the train company. As long as it is not wildly different from their calculations, they will know that you are being honest.

 

[Iscaredu]

Essentially you need to show that you are being fully honest. The ideal would be if you could demonstrate every trip you have taken - but pretty well by definition a pass doesn't give you that level of information. Neither can you look at bank statements for each ticket purchase.

But you do know when you started making the journey. And you know your shifts so you know how many times you could have made the journey. And you can probably make a fair guess as to how often you used the blocked route (every time? Once a week? Once a month?)

So you can come up with a decent estimate which you can present to the train company. As long as it is not wildly different from their calculations, they will know that you are being honest.

OK so another thing is would I be expected to pay for a return from Liverpool st or Stratford considering the staff pass let's me go free from Stratford? Just want to know what to expect but I'll try and get a rough idea, I suppose if I over estimate that would be better than under shooting the amount of journeys

 

[bramling]

So my main issue is working out how many times I've used the service, I can make a rough estimate but it's hard to say exactly how many, should I just say how long I'd been using their service for, and let them come back to me with a sum? I'm happy to pay whatever they come back with just to put it to bed on their side.

I’d recommend looking back through shifts and making an estimate based on how many times you have worked a shift, and minus any where you are *certain* you didn’t use the train. I’d agree with the other poster that providing it’s roughly the same then GA aren’t going to have an issue, but you definitely want it to be as accurate as you possibly can make it. A wording such as “having reviewed my shift diary I believe I have made X number of journeys” is reasonable.

I think it’s fair to pay the fare based on Stratford to Shenfield, though I’m not sure if that means you need to have been using services which stopped at Stratford. However if you offer to pay the fare from Liverpool Street then it will probably go down better and shows goodwill on your part.

 

[Iscaredu]

This is my rough email of my response to GA, been advised my union that I should try and square things with them first.

And advice would be great, tried to keep it short and sweet but say what I need to say.

To whom it may concern,

I am deeply regretful of my actions and my ignorance of what train I should have been commuting on. Now that I've been made aware I'm sincerely sorry for breaching Greater Anglia's railway agreement and I can assure you this will never happen again.

I implore you to allow me to settle this matter without court action and I'm more than willing to pay the outstanding fares and administration cost of this matter.

I've tried my best to analyse my work diary over the course of the last 2 years to pin point when I may have you used your service, my rough estimate is around x times (xx months) but it might be less as I've not Included strikes days and engineering work.

 

[bluegoblin7]

No doubt there are others more qualified than me to assist with the success of any specific wording, but as a rep I absolutely agree that this is the best first course of action, and I don’t see any major issues with your response. My main feedback would be to tone down some of the hyperbole as it comes across a little insincere (“I implore you”).

Best of luck with the appeal, and I hope I it brings you some success. It will almost certainly have an impact on any internal proceedings.

 

[AlterEgo]

This is my rough email of my response to GA, been advised my union that I should try and square things with them first.

And advice would be great, tried to keep it short and sweet but say what I need to say.

To whom it may concern,

I am deeply regretful of my actions and my ignorance of what train I should have been commuting on. Now that I've been made aware I'm sincerely sorry for breaching Greater Anglia's railway agreement and I can assure you this will never happen again.

I implore you to allow me to settle this matter without court action and I'm more than willing to pay the outstanding fares and administration cost of this matter.

I've tried my best to analyse my work diary over the course of the last 2 years to pin point when I may have you used your service, my rough estimate is around x times (xx months) but it might be less as I've not Included strikes days and engineering work.

Your letter should start with addressing the person or department who wrote to you, and have a starting sentence that mentions what you are replying to “eg: thank you for your letter of (date)”

Always close with a call to action, repeating that you wish to settle out of court and saying something like “I look forward to your response”.

I agree with @bluegoblin7 that “implore” is too strong a word. I’d word it something like “I ask that you consider…”

 

[Brissle Girl]

I prefer “I would very much appreciate”, which I think makes it clear that I am asking really nicely, but in language that is not flowery. Minor details though.

 

[Iscaredu]

This is my new revised version including some of your advice, thank you all for your input!

Dear Fraud & Investigation Team,

Thank you for your letter regarding the 15th of April.

I am deeply regretful of my actions and my ignorance of what train I should have been commuting on. Now that I've been made aware I'm sincerely sorry for breaching Greater Anglia's railway agreement and I can assure you this will never happen again.

I ask you to consider that you allow me to settle this matter without court action and I'm more than willing to pay the outstanding fares and administration cost of this matter.

I've tried my best to analyse my work diary over the course of the last 2 years to pinpoint when I may have you used your service, my rough estimate is around xxx trips (there and back) but it may be less as I've not Included strikes days and engineering work.

In very keen to settle this matter out of court and I look forward to your response.

Kind regards,
xxxxx

 

[CapabilityB]

This is my new revised version including some of your advice, thank you all for your input!

Dear Fraud & Investigation Team,

Thank you for your letter regarding the 15th of April.

I am deeply regretful of my actions and my ignorance of what train I should have been commuting on. Now that I've been made aware I'm sincerely sorry for breaching Greater Anglia's railway agreement and I can assure you this will never happen again.

I ask you to consider that you allow me to settle this matter without court action and I'm more than willing to pay the outstanding fares and administration cost of this matter.

I've tried my best to analyse my work diary over the course of the last 2 years to pinpoint when I may have you used your service, my rough estimate is around xxx trips (there and back) but it may be less as I've not Included strikes days and engineering work.

In very keen to settle this matter out of court and I look forward to your response.

Kind regards,
xxxxx

In that last paragraph, maybe instead of saying you're "keen to settle this matter out of court", you could say your "keen to work with them to resolve the matter without the need for court proceedings".

It just helps to show understanding that whatever happens is in their hands, but also might help make them think about the additional time, effort, and cost that they'll incur if they make the choice to take you to court.

It's not an important change to your draft though.

 

[Iscaredu]

Hey all, got my settlement figure back today and squashed it, thank you all for your input on the matter, really do appreciate it.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hey all, got my settlement figure back today and squashed it, thank you all for your input on the matter, really do appreciate it.

Has your employer discontinued any action against you too? Irregularities are usually reported to the TOC the employee works for.

 

[Iscaredu]

Has your employer discontinued any action against you too? Irregularities are usually reported to the TOC the employee works for.

That's the next part I'm trying to find out, will keep posted