TfL ticket machines and offices going cashless

[telstarbox]

Even builders etc are moving away from cash. We had an electrician round and he generated an invoice on his iPad, I signed it and then I got an email with a link for online payment. Nice and easy and it avoided having to take out a wodge of notes.

 

[Non Multi]

Tweet from Tom Edwards, BBC's London transport correspondent

NEW: London’s transport watchdog says TfL’s plans to scrap taking cash in the New Year need rethinking. 250,000 Londoners don’t have bank accounts as well as many children.

https://www.twitter.com/BBCTomEdwards/status/1336258580304056322

London Travelwatch have also found 32 stations where there are no Oyster Ticket Stops nearby (to top Oyster cards up with cash):

London TravelWatch’s investigation has shown that some stations don’t have a ticket stop nearby, meaning that it will be harder to top up an oyster card with cash. They are:

On London Underground 17 had a Ticket Stop over 400m away or had no access to a ticket stop – Chalfont and Latimer, Chesham, Chorleywood, Croxley, Epping, Fairlop, Holland Park, Hyde Park Corner, Knightsbridge, Loughton, Moorgate, North Greenwich, Osterley, Rickmansworth, Stanmore, Watford, White City.

On London Overground 5 had a Ticket Stop 400m or more away – Hackney Wick , Southbury, Imperial Wharf, South Acton and Watford High Street stations.

On the DLR 10 had no Ticket Stop available – Bank, Beckton Park, Devons Road, Langdon Park, Limehouse, Mudchute, Pontoon Dock, Pudding Mill Lane, Royal Victoria and West Silvertown stations

Also of note:

Survey respondents were also worried about having a card payment rejected at a station and being unable to use cash instead, or of having to go out of their way to find a Ticket Stop. Survey respondents also talked about how using cash helped them to manage their weekly household budget.

Their report can be found here:

London TravelWatch says that TfL need to go back to the drawing board on its plans to make stations cashless - London TravelWatch

London TravelWatch has today written to TfL Commissioner Andy Byford to express its concern about plans to stop taking cash across all London Underground, DLR and London Overground station ticket offices and machines in the new year. This follows research by the watchdog which showed the...

www.londontravelwatch.org.uk

 

[Deafdoggie]

We've actually had a voucher scheme running for a long time, not restricted to single traders or multiple places, but accepted everywhere.

It's called £10 notes.

How quaint. We had horse-drawn carriages for many years. Then someone invented the train, but I guess you still travel by horse, or do you not shun all new technology just some?

 

[1955LR]

I am no expect on card payments, but I believe there is an assumption in the UK is that Debit/Credit cards are universal & will work anywhere in the world . My experience abroad is that that is not the case . Last year I couldn't get petrol at an unmanned pump in The Netherlands with any of my cards and had to resort to asking a local if he would use his card and I paid him the appropriate cash , same in the US. I hope the planners at TfL take into account that foreign cards may have different functionality to UK ones , and not disadvantage visitors to the capital

 

[island]

That is predominantly a Dutch and German problem where the Maestro and V-Pay card schemes are dominant and Visa and MasterCard are not accepted by some merchants.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is predominantly a Dutch and German problem where the Maestro and V-Pay card schemes are dominant and Visa and MasterCard are not accepted by some merchants.

I have difficulty understanding the point of V-Pay - it seems to be a deliberately limited version of Visa Electron. Cheaper for the banks perhaps? Or does it have roots in the old Dutch-only PINpas system?

As for tourists, I still think having cash acceptance at "entry points" like airports and main railway stations is enough, not every Tube station needs it.

 

[Taunton]

As for tourists, I still think having cash acceptance at "entry points" like airports and main railway stations is enough, not every Tube station needs it.

But that's not where those from overseas often enter the system - they come out of their hotel and walk along to the likes of Lancaster Gate after breakfast.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But that's not where those from overseas often enter the system - they come out of their hotel and walk along to the likes of Lancaster Gate after breakfast.

How did they get to the hotel? A private helicopter direct from their country of residence? (I'm not being obtuse; even those on an organised tour would have arrived in an airport or been on a ferry prior to taking their coach transfer).

Perhaps hotels could also sell Oyster cards for cash/to put on their bill?

 

[island]

I have difficulty understanding the point of V-Pay - it seems to be a deliberately limited version of Visa Electron. Cheaper for the banks perhaps? Or does it have roots in the old Dutch-only PINpas system?

Yes, it was yet another debit network for Europe set up with ultra low interchange fees, before the interchange fee cap. It’s supposedly only usable in Europe and only face to face.

Dutch PIN cards migrated to Maestro mainly.

 

[Taunton]

How did they get to the hotel?

Like anyone else outside "the railway bubble". Some by taxi, some (increasingly) by Uber, some by tour coach, some sold Heathrow Express tickets by the ticket tout in the Heathrow arrivals corridor. None of which give any ability to get in the Underground two days later.

It's notable that the open top sightseeing buses that start from various points around central London, with pavement conductors/sales staff, are only too happy to take cash, which a significant proportion of their customers can be seen to be doing.

 

[biko]

I have difficulty understanding the point of V-Pay - it seems to be a deliberately limited version of Visa Electron. Cheaper for the banks perhaps? Or does it have roots in the old Dutch-only PINpas system?

As far as I know, V-Pay is only used by one or two banks in the Netherlands, everybody here has Maestro so that might have roots in the Pinpas system. But seeing that Maestro is part of MasterCard and should be their debit card brand, I don’t actually understand why it doesn’t work everywhere. My Maestro debit card does for example work on TfL but didn’t at some ticket machines in the UK.

The reason why foreign people cannot pay by card in the Netherlands is mostly that credit cards are not accepted because of higher transaction costs and the very low number of credit card users here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The issue with Maestro in the UK is that what we used to call Maestro wasn't the same as what you call Maestro, in our case it was the rebranding of the old UK-only Switch/Solo network.

I don't think any UK banks issue Maestro any more, they are either Visa Debit (formerly Visa Delta/Visa Electron) or Debit MasterCard, which process through the credit card systems. This makes sense for the UK as credit cards have been in use widely here far longer than debit cards, one of the many ways in which we differ from the mainland but are more similar to the USA.

 

[LonTravelWatch]

Hi everyone. Thanks so much for all your comments. I have amended the post to make it absolutely clear that this is about removing the option to use cash at these stations. I've also reworded the title to make it clear that this applies to ticket machines and the ticket offices. You may have already seen our short report we have produced following the feedback from those of you who have filled in our survey as well as highlighting a number of stations where the alternative proposed by TfL to use a retail shop is either not very close to the station in question or not available at all. If you haven't seen the report you can view it here. We are aware that the documented has been circulated amongst the senior management at TfL and we are expecting a reply to a letter we sent to Andy Byford, TfL's Transport Commissioner, about this issue very soon. We're continuing to push TfL to convince them to rethink the decision, and we'll be in touch if we hear of any new developments.

Many thanks,

The London TravelWatch Team

 

[Bletchleyite]

TfL don't have any ticket offices now, do they?

 

[LonTravelWatch]

TfL don't have any ticket offices now, do they?

They don't on the Underground or DLR but do at most London Overground stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They don't on the Underground or DLR but do at most London Overground stations.

Ah, I stand corrected. Would probably expect those to be proposed for closure soon enough; there's no reason LO should have them if LU doesn't.

 

[Non Multi]

Point worth noting from Lee Render re Overground:

Twitter

Interesting - anything ticketing wise affecting Overground stations would more than likely actually required sign off from RDG and other TOCs owing to Rail Settlement Plan issues and the wider customer connectional picture

 

[swt_passenger]

Ah, I stand corrected. Would probably expect those to be proposed for closure soon enough; there's no reason LO should have them if LU doesn't.

Except that LO is subject to NR conditions of travel (if that differs to TfL’s)?

 

[island]

TfL don't have any ticket offices now, do they?

They do on the overground and TfL Rail. There is/was also an office at London City Airport DLR.

 

[Taunton]

I don't think any UK banks issue Maestro any more, they are either Visa Debit (formerly Visa Delta/Visa Electron) or Debit MasterCard, which process through the credit card systems. This makes sense for the UK as credit cards have been in use widely here far longer than debit cards, one of the many ways in which we differ from the mainland but are more similar to the USA.

Actually not; in the USA debit cards are regarded with suspicion as there is an expectation that people only have them if they have been turned down for any credit card. Car rentals and hotels in particular are sometimes loathe to take them. Also in the US any payment point will take Visa, Mastercard, Amex or Diners; here in the UK it is common not to accept the last two, particularly Diners, and in fact there is an increasing trend against Amex as well as they charge notably high merchant fees here (much more than in the US). A number of travelling Americans will only have Amex, it being the most widespread employer-issued card for those on travelling expenses.

 

[clagmonster]

TfL don't have any ticket offices now, do they?

Not in name, but they have Visitor Centres at most of the BR termini and I think at Heathrow Central. They are able to provide the same functions, among other things like booking bus tours.

 

[Whistler40145]

What would the outcome be if ticket machines malfunction making them inoperative, leaving passengers with no means to purchase tickets?

 

[island]

What would the outcome be if ticket machines malfunction making them inoperative, leaving passengers with no means to purchase tickets?

All London Underground stations have multiple machines and almost all are staffed, so it’s unlikely to arise, but one supposes the usual principles for when no facilities are available would apply.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

All London Underground stations have multiple machines and almost all are staffed, so it’s unlikely to arise, but one supposes the usual principles for when no facilities are available would apply.

Free travel?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not in name, but they have Visitor Centres at most of the BR termini and I think at Heathrow Central. They are able to provide the same functions, among other things like booking bus tours.

It would seem to make sense to have those taking cash, then. Though I believe the one at Euston closed without replacement, so could do with being put back.

What would the outcome be if ticket machines malfunction making them inoperative, leaving passengers with no means to purchase tickets?

Er, exactly the same as if the machine took cash?

 

[Cdd89]

It would seem to make sense to have those taking cash, then.

I think that might be problematic. Whatever the reasons for people using cash, the fact is that a lot of people do, and so if cash is accepted then the method of doing so at a station needs to be high capacity eg a machine. Visitors centres don’t have that so would probably lead to large queues at visitors centres defeating their original purpose.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that might be problematic. Whatever the reasons for people using cash, the fact is that a lot of people do, and so if cash is accepted then the method of doing so at a station needs to be high capacity eg a machine. Visitors centres don’t have that so would probably lead to large queues at visitors centres defeating their original purpose.

I don't believe that is a fact in London. Cash in London is dying, and TVMs mostly stand unused now contactless is here[1]. The whole bus system (the part of public transport that you'd expect might need cash acceptance, because it is disproportionately used by poorer people who use cash more) hasn't taken cash for years. We are very, very close, in London, to cash just not really being a "thing" any more. It's probably 10-20 years ahead of other parts of the UK in that regard.

If London was Liverpool I'd agree, but it isn't. Cash doesn't have much of a future in London even in the short term. You're providing for an increasingly small niche mostly made up of tourists (with cards that don't work with contactless but do allow cash withdrawal, or which have a fee structure that make taking 200 quid out once makes more sense than small transactions) and other visitors, so having the facilities at the main entry points will solve the vast majority of use cases, and "Oyster Ticket Stops" in corner shops will pick up the rest.

[1] There used to be long queues at the TVMs at Euston in the morning, as visitors from outside London came in - mostly large volumes of different people visiting occasionally, so pointless maintaining an Oyster. Since contactless, there aren't any more, they just tap in and continue.

 

[deecee16]

You could fit ticket machines with UV lamps that disinfect the money as its is stored this would make it completely safe for staff to handle and safer than requiring a customer to enter a newsagent to buy a ticket and hand over the cash in a cash register.

Can't see that happening.
They can't even afford to replace the inked ribbons in the machines, some machines issue tickets that are almost completely blank!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can't see that happening.
They can't even afford to replace the inked ribbons in the machines, some machines issue tickets that are almost completely blank!

Are TfL still not using thermal printing? Crikey, they're a bit behind.

The main cost of cash is collecting and banking it, in any case. COVID is an excuse to do something they wanted to do anyway.

 

[Cdd89]

I don't believe that is a fact in London. Cash in London is dying, and TVMs mostly stand unused now contactless is here[1].

There is a huge difference between mostly unused and unused.

Based on an unscientific study (we really need the statistics on TfL cash use, which shouldn't be that hard to come by but I haven't managed based on a quick search!), I'd estimate about 20 people an hour are currently making cash top-ups (or other cash transactions) at my mid-sized local station.

(Not a NR terminus, but one of few still accepting cash payments; if we restricted to NR termini, which I'd agree with if we filled in the odd gaps and made sure nobody was more than a 10-minute-walk from a cash-accepting station in Zone 1, so very central Zone 1 might need some provision, then the pressure on those few stations still accepting cash would further increase).

I think the result would be tying up someone trained to give tourism travel advice with mundane cash top-ups for a significant proportion of their day. And what is the saving? Eliminating the cash acceptance components of a machine that will still need to exist in some form for other transactions. So, since:

The main cost of cash is collecting and banking it

...I'm not sure that moving cash acceptance to visitors centres would save all that much, since it reduces (and not by 100%) the acceptance costs, but doesn't alter the secure collection and banking costs.