TfL to order new units for WAML

[Bald Rick]

It is easy to overlook the fact that the GOBLIN is connected to the new WA TfL routes by a chord at Seven Sisters/South Tottenham....

Indeed, the Seven Sisters chord is overlooked brilliantly on google maps...

 

[Alfie1014]

Indeed I didn't state that 8 diagrams were needed for the service but 8 units are needed in total, 6 for the core 15 min service, 1 for the PIXC buster and 1 maint/spare. There was some earlier suggestion that only 4 units would be needed which wouldn't be enough.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'm not sure how great the demand for the 315s will be. They're already over 30 years old and really in need of a thorough refurbishment. I suppose they will be a cheap option for someone though, but it's certainly a case of cheap and nasty, they don't even have toilets.

Over 30 years old...really in need of a thorough refurbishment.

The first part would suggest Northern Rail. The second part would rule out Northern Rail as such a matter seems to be against the policy that decrees Northern Rail are not treated to such a matter of "refurbishment preceded by thorough" rather than one that just states "refresh"...

 

[Peter Sarf]

c2c is based at West Ham and Shoeburyness not Ilford.

I don't know why I got mixed up, how could I forget .
And I Corrected my original post to East Ham, then I realised you said West Ham but that is where the football team is - no 357s there !. i blame mi eieees.

On the subject of Thamesmead. I think there is an expectation that the London conurbation will spread down the Thames across the M25 and all the way to the Medway towns.

 

[nicobobinus]

Speaking from a local's point of view it'll be interesting to see what TfL do with frequencies on the Seven Sisters services. The parallel bus routes through Tottenham and Edmonton are very frequent and often absolutely heaving, and I believe strongly that there is latent demand for an improved service a la the NLL. The buses win on frequency but can be painfully slow. There are a number of large regeneration projects underway already along the line north of Seven Sisters, so any prospect of the 'orange treatment' is likely to spark a cycle of good virtue re demand & frequency. Re earlier comments on deprivation levels in Thamesmead, I can dredge up figures on request but the situation in areas of Tottenham, Edmonton and eastern Enfield along that line is no better, and in some cases worse.

GA's offering in it's current form is, at best, adequate, but a general air of neglect hangs over the whole operation - tired 30 year old 315 EMUs, and poorly staffed stations serving areas where some of the locals can be a bit 'interesting'. I can look after myself, but waiting at stations like Bruce Grove and Silver Street in the evenings I'm never completely at ease with my surroundings. Given a 25 minute wait at Southbury of a late evening or the choice of walking down to Tesco and jumping on a 279, I'll go for the latter knowing there probably won't be much in it at the other end. I know other people along the corridor who share my sentiments on this.

To address a couple of other points in the thread, the line speed is mostly 50 north of Hackney Downs - I think there's a restriction at the curve near Bruce Grove, and it may be higher north of Bury St junction towards Cheshunt. No idea if there is a restriction at Seven Sisters as I've never seen an ECS move there or a service train which doesn't call there! It is rare for the 315s on all-shacks services to get near those figures, though, except north of Edmonton Green. Fast services, where they exist, do better.

 

[Starmill]

Over 30 years old...really in need of a thorough refurbishment.

The first part would suggest Northern Rail. The second part would rule out Northern Rail as such a matter seems to be against the policy that decrees Northern Rail are not treated to such a matter of "refurbishment preceded by thorough" rather than one that just states "refresh"...

 

[edwin_m]

I don't know why I got mixed up, how could I forget .
And I Corrected my original post to East Ham, then I realised you said West Ham but that is where the football team is - no 357s there !. i blame mi eieees.

Think I'm getting my hams mixed up. West Ham has a station but no depot, and East Ham depot is moreorless in Barking.

 

[SF-02]

On the subject of Thamesmead. I think there is an expectation that the London conurbation will spread down the Thames across the M25 and all the way to the Medway towns.

Yep that's correct. I would like to see much greater use firstly of brownfield sites within the M25 and particularly greater density in zones 1-3, but even with that many houses will be needed and built along the Thames.

The need for additional crossings is pressing and will only increase. Ideally there would be one further downstream from Dartford (in consultation now - a road bridge), one around Thamesmead (both car and public transport crossings - been on the drawing boards for decades) and another around Greenwich/Isle of dogs. That could be pedestrian/cycle as Jubilee crosses there. Thamesmead-Barking would be the best spot for a public transport crossing from SE and E London. If it could link the two major interchanges each side of the river (to the south Abbey Wood north Kent line & Crossrail and north of the river Barking rail and tube station) which would be a vast improvement and aid greater development.

 

[306024]

I don't know why I got mixed up, how could I forget .
And I Corrected my original post to East Ham, then I realised you said West Ham but that is where the football team is - no 357s there !. i blame mi eieees.

And no football team at West Ham either (no jokes please) as the ground is nearest Upton Park station, and therefore closer to East Ham than West Ham station.

 

[Peter Sarf]

And no football team at West Ham either (no jokes please) as the ground is nearest Upton Park station, and therefore closer to East Ham than West Ham station.

I should have guessed, whats in a name. Since my local-ish team is Crystal Palace which lies between Selhurst and Norwood Junction stations. Slightly nearer Selhurst I think but an awfully long trek from Crystal Palace station !.

 

[Wolfie]

And no football team at West Ham either (no jokes please) as the ground is nearest Upton Park station, and therefore closer to East Ham than West Ham station.

But not for long - Stratford soon!

 

[Be3G]

GA's offering in it's current form is, at best, adequate, but a general air of neglect hangs over the whole operation - tired 30 year old 315 EMUs, and poorly staffed stations serving areas where some of the locals can be a bit 'interesting'. I can look after myself, but waiting at stations like Bruce Grove and Silver Street in the evenings I'm never completely at ease with my surroundings. Given a 25 minute wait at Southbury of a late evening or the choice of walking down to Tesco and jumping on a 279, I'll go for the latter knowing there probably won't be much in it at the other end. I know other people along the corridor who share my sentiments on this.

I couldn't agree more. My local station is Turkey Street, and one thing that annoys me is that in times of disruption the Southbury loop services always seem to be the first to be cancelled, even if they're not directly affected by the disruption, presumably so the stock can be used to help smooth over services on more ‘important’ lines. I also find the ticket office isn't open as reliably as I feel it should be. I remember even live departure boards and help points are a fairly recent addition (last five years or so I think). It's certainly had a pervading air of being a line NXEA/One/Greater Anglia would have preferred to not deal with.

The 279 is also one of my local buses and yep, it's nearly always packed. Back in the days of the bendy buses I used to wish TfL would put them on the route, as it was straight all the way down to Seven Sisters and they were great at transporting large numbers of people. (I suppose they'd have had difficulty at Waltham Cross bus station though.) But for the Southbury loop at least, I suppose there're only so many trains they can squeeze down the line considering the need to intermingle with the Enfield Town services too. I remember once upon a time there was a plan to build a reversing siding at Seven Sisters – long since abandoned. Perhaps consideration could be given to stopping some of the extra peak-hour trains that pass through without stopping to/from Hertford. Or maybe we are just destined for a half-hourly service forever more…

(Also, insert my usual grumble about the removal of the zone 2–6 cap making train travel much more expensive around here. Particularly when you consider that a six-minute journey from, say, Turkey Street to Edmonton traverses three zones and has a price to match.)

 

[jopsuk]

It seems to me that the proposed split will help entrench the lack of services to stations south of Tottenham Hale from there. It's a weird blip- generally if you wan to get from Tottenham Hale to Clapton-Bethnal Green you either need to go to Seven Sisters by tube/bus or double back via Liverpool Street, alternatively I guess there may be direct buses?

 

[Be3G]

Tottenham Hale to Bethnal Green, Cambridge Heath and London Fields can be done fairly easily by catching the half-hourly Hertford East to London train and changing at Hackney Downs. The same can be said for Clapton too I suppose, although the need to double-back in such a way for that station is a bit passenger-unfriendly. Anyone in Clapton who wants to catch the Stansted Express probably gets a bit exasperated at the need to either go in to London or catch two trains to reach it.

 

[jopsuk]

OK, I'll admit that I'd only looked at Sundays (when it was of use to me!)- even so, from north of Broxbourne that means two changes to get to a station that your train passes through! 1 change would be OK.

 

[Be3G]

Ah yes, I forgot about Sundays – I rarely use the Sunday service along the WAML as it's a paltry one train per hour from Enfield Lock (whereas, bizarrely, Turkey Street still gets two). In which case, you raise a good point indeed: on Sundays there're no trains at all that stop at both Tottenham Hale and Hackney Downs. Though seeing as services through Tottenham Hale will remain under Greater Anglia (or their successor's) control, I'm not sure what if anything will ever be done about the poor Sunday service.

 

[nicobobinus]

I couldn't agree more. My local station is Turkey Street, and one thing that annoys me is that in times of disruption the Southbury loop services always seem to be the first to be cancelled, even if they're not directly affected by the disruption, presumably so the stock can be used to help smooth over services on more ‘important’ lines. I also find the ticket office isn't open as reliably as I feel it should be. I remember even live departure boards and help points are a fairly recent addition (last five years or so I think). It's certainly had a pervading air of being a line NXEA/One/Greater Anglia would have preferred to not deal with.

The 279 is also one of my local buses and yep, it's nearly always packed. Back in the days of the bendy buses I used to wish TfL would put them on the route, as it was straight all the way down to Seven Sisters and they were great at transporting large numbers of people. (I suppose they'd have had difficulty at Waltham Cross bus station though.) But for the Southbury loop at least, I suppose there're only so many trains they can squeeze down the line considering the need to intermingle with the Enfield Town services too. I remember once upon a time there was a plan to build a reversing siding at Seven Sisters – long since abandoned. Perhaps consideration could be given to stopping some of the extra peak-hour trains that pass through without stopping to/from Hertford. Or maybe we are just destined for a half-hourly service forever more…

(Also, insert my usual grumble about the removal of the zone 2–6 cap making train travel much more expensive around here. Particularly when you consider that a six-minute journey from, say, Turkey Street to Edmonton traverses three zones and has a price to match.)

Do the signs at Turkey Street still have all the 'welcome to Mississippi'-style BB gun holes in them? Yes, in terms of stopping trains the Southbury loop seems to come at the bottom of the 'metro' food chain. Chingford is the sacred cow. I'd have my doubts that GA would tweak the peak fasts to make any additional calls - my regular train home is the 1841 LST-HFE, which I think is a service 'pinched' from the Lee Valley lines, and needs a timing between Hackney Downs and Cheshunt comparable to what other Hertfords achieve via Tottenham Hale to keep a consistent overall service further out. Pure speculation, mind.

GA's successor will have an interesting time pathing fast trains around TfL's services, especially if they go for a frequency increase - until there are more than two tracks up the Lee Valley line there will always be a use for the Seven Sisters diversion. But I imagine most (if not all) of the fast services will disappear, most notably on Sundays.

Re. the 279, as well as Waltham Cross, the thought of a Citaro G throwing a u-turn across 6 lanes of queuing peak traffic at Manor House probably kept that plan firmly on the drawing board. A standard double decker has a fight on it's hands in the morning!

 

[swt_passenger]

GA's successor will have an interesting time pathing fast trains around TfL's services, especially if they go for a frequency increase...

Do you expect that TfL will have some sort of priority then? I reckon it's just as likely that the longer distance and faster trains will stay as they are and TfL's will have to fit in where they can.

 

[nicobobinus]

Do you expect that TfL will have some sort of priority then? I reckon it's just as likely that the longer distance and faster trains will stay as they are and TfL's will have to fit in where they can.

Granted, now you point it out it was an odd assumption to make!

 

[swt_passenger]

Granted, now you point it out it was an odd assumption to make!

I think it's an important point to be aware of, because I think it's quite unwise to assume that any route that TfL happen to take over will automatically see significant capacity and frequency changes. What we've seen on the NLL/WLL and ELL over the last few years started from a very low baseline.

This won't always be the case, and if paths are full for GA, they'll still be full for TfL, unless new infrastructure happens as a parallel activity.

 

[nicobobinus]

I think it's an important point to be aware of, because I think it's quite unwise to assume that any route that TfL happen to take over will automatically see significant capacity and frequency changes. What we've seen on the NLL/WLL and ELL over the last few years started from a very low baseline.

This won't always be the case, and if paths are full for GA, they'll still be full for TfL, unless new infrastructure happens as a parallel activity.

Well my assertion about latent demand on the section of line through Tottenham and Edmonton stands, but I appreciate that pathing is tight, especially closer in towards Liverpool Street where everything feeds into two tracks. Standee-oriented train layouts will obviously improve capacity, but given the nature of the line as a 'feeder' into the tube at Seven Sisters, perhaps there is merit in reviving the idea of a reversing line there. A service pattern with an emphasis on the Seven Sisters - Edmonton (&Enfield) would reflect the bulge in demand that exists on that section.

How many trains the line can actually handle is illustrated on occasions when the Lee Valley line is blocked - by disruption or design - and the Seven Sisters line absorbs the bulk of the displaced services. Untidily, but it manages. I would like to know what the true capacity of the line is, if anyone has a good idea.

 

[jon0844]

I'd have thought LO would want to run a fairly regular service running all stations. Nothing fancy, and at the expense of any faster services that might run (As I rarely travel from Cheshunt, I have no idea what the timetables are on the Seven Sisters line).

But when there's engineering work, or disruption, that sees trains on the Tottenham Hale line being diverted, I expect LO will have to curtail its own services and there would be some form of emergency timetable?

Failing that, what about LO running trains as normal (all stations) during engineering work and having other services start/stop at Cheshunt to continue on? Would/could that work?

I don't know what would be done about the Stansted Express. Maybe they'd be the only services that would run straight through to LST, but at the expense of a few stoppers?

 

[Be3G]

Do the signs at Turkey Street still have all the 'welcome to Mississippi'-style BB gun holes in them? Yes, in terms of stopping trains the Southbury loop seems to come at the bottom of the 'metro' food chain. Chingford is the sacred cow. I'd have my doubts that GA would tweak the peak fasts to make any additional calls - my regular train home is the 1841 LST-HFE, which I think is a service 'pinched' from the Lee Valley lines, and needs a timing between Hackney Downs and Cheshunt comparable to what other Hertfords achieve via Tottenham Hale to keep a consistent overall service further out. Pure speculation, mind.

GA's successor will have an interesting time pathing fast trains around TfL's services, especially if they go for a frequency increase - until there are more than two tracks up the Lee Valley line there will always be a use for the Seven Sisters diversion. But I imagine most (if not all) of the fast services will disappear, most notably on Sundays.

To be honest I'm not sure about the target practice station signs – as the station is just walking distance away I rarely spend much time on its platforms. The stairs seemed a bit cleaner though last time I travelled there if that says much…?

Actually, one positive thing I will say about Turkey Street is the ticket clerk who's normally found working there on weekdays. Very friendly and seemingly pretty knowledgeable (neither of which can always be said for GA's ticket office staff).

I certainly don't expect the fasts to Hertford would be given added stops on the Southbury loop either, as it's a point I raised when the new timetable was being consulted on a couple of years ago and nothing became of it. You raise a good point though about TfL getting rid of fast services: thinking about it, all of their Overground services stop at every station (with very minor exceptions) so we should probably expect the same for the West Anglia routes. Although – thinking about it some more – the Hertford fasts will presumably continue to be run by Greater Anglia because TfL's jurisdiction will only go as far as Cheshunt. Hmm. Wonder how that'll work out; will (for example) Edmonton Green end up with a mostly modern, frequent but all-stations service by TfL with just a few decrepit but fast GA trains in the peaks?

Edit: and as jonmorries0844 has just reminded me above, there're also the few Stansted Expresses at the end of the day too which call at Seven Sisters rather than Tottenham Hale.

 

[jopsuk]

Well my assertion about latent demand on the section of line through Tottenham and Edmonton stands, but I appreciate that pathing is tight, especially closer in towards Liverpool Street where everything feeds into two tracks.

Won't Crossrail help with this? West Anglia fast services can/do run straight onto the Great Eastern mains. With Shenfield Metro services due to (mainly) disapear underground at Pudding Mill Lane, presumably more of the GEML non-Norwich services can use the southern pair of tracks, so allowing more WAML Cambridge/Hertford/Stansted services to share the middle pair with Norwich services creating a bit more capacity for Seven Sisters/Chingford trains on the tracks through Bethnal Green's platforms.

 

[Bald Rick]

Won't Crossrail help with this? West Anglia fast services can/do run straight onto the Great Eastern mains. With Shenfield Metro services due to (mainly) disapear underground at Pudding Mill Lane, presumably more of the GEML non-Norwich services can use the southern pair of tracks, so allowing more WAML Cambridge/Hertford/Stansted services to share the middle pair with Norwich services creating a bit more capacity for Seven Sisters/Chingford trains on the tracks through Bethnal Green's platforms.

Ah, if only the platforms at Liv St vacated by Crossrail could take the 12 coach trains that come up the GEML Main lines.

However Crossrail 2 does solve it.

 

[jopsuk]

Regardless of the trains fitting the platforms freed up, can trains from the southern/eastern pair of lines access the longer platforms?

Meanwhile, if CR2 used my fantasy arrangement (ie what won't happen) I'd have it surface west of Bethnal Green- sucking in all Enfield, Hertford, Chingford services and also Harlow Town (facilitated by a new pair of tracks from Hackney Downs to Harlow with platforms only at Tottenham Hale and Broxbourne, Chesunt terminators extended to Harlow)

 

[tbtc]

I think it's an important point to be aware of, because I think it's quite unwise to assume that any route that TfL happen to take over will automatically see significant capacity and frequency changes. What we've seen on the NLL/WLL and ELL over the last few years started from a very low baseline.

This won't always be the case, and if paths are full for GA, they'll still be full for TfL, unless new infrastructure happens as a parallel activity.

I thought that TfL taking over any route automatically meant dozens of shiny new 378s with longitudal seating and a huge frequency increase from day one?

Or have I been reading too many enthusiasts' viewpoints again?